At Wit's End!! Kitty refuses toppings on RAW

Dear cat geniuses and lovers!

I usually don't post on forums unless I can't find previous threads or google info that helps with my problem. So here goes, please everyone be patient. :-)

Charlie's weighing in at 3.7KG on a previous diet of Ziwi Peak canned (50gm) and Wellness kibbles (2 tablespoons). But his poop would be like a softie with blood at the tip. He's still a very active, healthy and affectionate boy at 11 months old. My vet diagnosed Charlie with IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) and recommends putting him on RAW and probiotics to help.

When Charlie was 4 months old he was put on RAW for a couple months but given I was traveling a lot during the time, we switched to can food and kibble for the convenience of Charlie's caregiver. Totally regret this....

Before he would eat rump (beef), chicken, rabbit, lamb, heart and other offals. Without any flavoring or toppings.

Now.... Charlie only eats rabbit and only if it's mixed with pumpkin and topped generously with flakes of freeze dried liver and... CET toothpaste in poultry flavor. And only a measly 30 grams a day! 

I've tried bonito flakes, cheese, broth, sardines, tuna, canned food, kibbles, yoghurt, butter, oil and fish oil. All unsuccessful. Even using a 12 -18 hours window of no food out to use hunger to get him to eat more. 

So any suggestions or common experience to share? Can I do anything else to make him eat more? I'd be more assured and happy if Charlie could eat 100 - 150 grams of raw a day. 

Thank you for taking the time to read and share your valuable advice and experiences. Almost in tears typing this post.

Sorry you're having problems.
Maybe go back to square one? Find a really high quality canned food and mix a tiny bit of raw into that; gradually increase the proportion of raw:canned.
And it's unclear to me what form of raw you feed--ground? prey model raw?
Not sure what country you live in (the 'grams' is a dead give-away :lol3, but can you find commercial raw (has the consistency of canned food). Maybe Charlie is turned off by the texture/shape.

Dear Grace,

just don't give up. I've been through a similar thing with Grisou. This was of course my own fault because he is surrounded by wrestling muscle supercats who weigh in nearly double of Grisou's weight while being the same age. So I thought the he was starving and gave him all kinds of canned food he loved, just to get him to eat, until finally the second vet consulted proved her money's worth by telling me that there is nothing wrong with my little guy. That's when I found out he got severe (horrible smelling) diarrhea from all the canned food.

So, back to getting a cat to eat species appropriate food... in Grisou's case, blatant bribery did the trick. I found some treats he really liked and started small, a nice fresh treat offered on top of pup rat halves. Once he got into eating mode from the treat, he went on to eat the whole thing I was holding. From this we proceeded to weaned rats to small ones, the whole things! And no trace of diarrhea anywhere. This over a course of a month, mind, in his own time.

Then, recently I got him to try duck meat and pork heart. He ate it! First with treat on top, then without. The downside is that he thinks he's entitled to me holding his food for him while he eats, but we are working on that   

Yes, also remember cats are like kids. If they know there are treats around they will hold out for them. You probably have all sorts of fancy treats around that he can smell so may be holding out. Best to put treats away in an airtight container. Good luck.

Try FortiFlora . Dr Lisa of Catinfo.org swears by it to transition cats to a different trype of food or to get sick cats to eat. FortiFlora is actually a probiotic but you can use it as a food enhancer. It's basically animal digest, the same stuff many dry foods are coated in (and why some cats are dry food addicts - they just can't resist that taste). A little sprinke over food is all you need. You can buy FortiFlora online.

Maybe also ask your vet if your cat needs an appetite stimulant. I'm worried that your cat isn't getting enough calories daily. A cat not getting enough calories can develop fatty liver disease.

Dear All,

Thank you for all the experiences and advice! Loving this forum so far. Not feeling too helpless anymore.

So more questions:

@LTS3  Charlie's already on probiotics (protexin caps) one pill per day. Is it still safe to flavor with fortiflora? Yes I read Dr Lisa took 3 months to wean her catters! Whoa... and it's only been 2 weeks for me. But the LONGEST 2 weeks thus far.

@zoneout  That's definitely true in this household! Have all the freeze dried meats, livers, hearts, etc in baggies to be sprinkled on top of his food. Will box them immediately and report back.

@roguethecat  OMG what a pampered little prince! Yeah had to feed Charlie with chopsticks or accidentally drop food on the floor for him to pick it up. But he stopped being Mr. Garbage man pants after a few days. I wanted to ask what you do with the remnant pups when Grisou did not initially finish them? 

@Ritz  Haha yeah we're in Singapore using metric. So diet's just raw rabbit cut into pieces with some soft bone, pumpkin/squash puree and heaps of his dried meat on top. Not sure if there's a term for this diet. Also supplementing with probiotics a pill a day and some Lysine (Viralys brand. hate that it has maple flavoring and artificial sweeteners. Gonna stop using it soon) I did try mixing it with the can he likes but he eats even lesser than when it's just the meat/pumpkin/dried meat dish.   

Can I leave the raw meat/pumpkin/dried meat combo out for more than 1-2 hours? Coz Charlie's a grazer. Some of the previous threads I read say no more than an hour and some say they've left it for 8 hours and come back after work to an empty plate. I read on paleopet.com that as long as there's good gut flora (probiotic supplements) it's fine since cats in the wild didn't consume their whole prey in one sitting but came back to eat it even up to a week later. What do you think?

Last question: If I stick with this diet with Charlie consuming just 30 -50grams / 1.05 - 1.7 oz of rabbit a day. Will I see him consuming more say after another couple weeks or so? He's not been losing weight since the diet of raw 2 weeks ago. Again, Charlie is 11 months, radgoll, at 3.4KG / 7.5 lbs. Still playing, although he doesn't poop that much or that regularly anymore.... But if he does poop, it's firm and rather dark in colour. Is it normal? Arrrrgggghh... sorry for the many questions! 

Once again THANKS EVERYONE! 

@roguethecat  OMG what a pampered little prince! Yeah had to feed Charlie with chopsticks or accidentally drop food on the floor for him to pick it up. But he stopped being Mr. Garbage man pants after a few days. I wanted to ask what you do with the remnant pups when Grisou did not initially finish them? 

Can I leave the raw meat/pumpkin/dried meat combo out for more than 1-2 hours? Coz Charlie's a grazer. Some of the previous threads I read say no more than an hour and some say they've left it for 8 hours and come back after work to an empty plate. I read on paleopet.com that as long as there's good gut flora (probiotic supplements) it's fine since cats in the wild didn't consume their whole prey in one sitting but came back to eat it even up to a week later. What do you think?

Last question: If I stick with this diet with Charlie consuming just 30 -50grams / 1.05 - 1.7 oz of rabbit a day. Will I see him consuming more say after another couple weeks or so? He's not been losing weight since the diet of raw 2 weeks ago. Again, Charlie is 11 months, radgoll, at 3.4KG / 7.5 lbs. Still playing, although he doesn't poop that much or that regularly anymore.... But if he does poop, it's firm and rather dark in colour. Is it normal? Arrrrgggghh... sorry for the many questions! 

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ok. You probably worry too much... Poop sounds pretty normal (I find this greatly varies from cat to cat, even if they eat the same stuff). It's also normal that raw fed cats don't poop as much as garbage fed ones. As for leaving food out, no problem if it is chunks of meat. Not sure about ground stuff. I'd try to wean him away from ground meat and pumpkin if possible, and get him to eat dark meats: pork, beef, dark parts of chicken or turkey. There must be something he likes out there.

Dr. Lisa is good but stuck with grinding, there are other sites out there promoting the fact that cats actually have teeth  http://www.rawfedcats.org/feedingraw.htm

and for probiotics, I found nothing beats adult mice.

If he's not losing weight, perfect. My Grisou lost some of his appetite around that age (when all my worries about him started and the outrageously expensive vet told me that, hey, he just stopped growing). He got it back now, he's just not eating like the Rogue who is twice his weight.

As for Grisou's leftovers: the little prince has his personal feeding spot untroubled by bullies, so anything he doesn't eat after an hour is thrown to said bullies (this works evenings only, of course - he hasn't yet grasped the fact that I don't have time to tend his needs on a weekday morning in order to keep everyone in rodents and chickens  )

Grace Chen said:

@LTS3  Charlie's already on probiotics (protexin caps) one pill per day. Is it still safe to flavor with fortiflora? Yes I read Dr Lisa took 3 months to wean her catters! Whoa... and it's only been 2 weeks for me. But the LONGEST 2 weeks thus far.

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It should be fine. You just need a little sprinkle of FortiFlora over the food to make is super yummy.

OK I just ordered Fortiflora after an island wide search where I'm from (Singapore). NONE of the vets/retail stores carry this. I'm wondering if it is then OK to have Charlie on it.

Another qn, can cats with IBD be introduced to fish oils? Charlie doesn't eat them willingly so have to syringe it in and get death stares later.

Thanks!

And sorry for the delay in replays / updates! Just that we're coming into our 3rd week of raw diet after the past 10 months of so on being on commercial foods. And Charlie still won't eat more than his miserable 30 grams of meat each sitting. Even after 12-14 hour starvation window periods now. Still have to pile on the freeze dried treats (while waiting for fortiflora, which hopefully works if not I'm not have an anxiety attack)

If there is still no increment in his food intake of 50 - 60 grams / 1.05 - 1.7 oz of raw meat (some liver and bone and pumpkin) I'll bring him for some blood work to be done at the vet. I'm terribly afraid of toxic/liver poisoning.

He pooped yesterday for the 1st time since his last one 2-3 days ago. Do I need permission from everyone before posting a pic of his poop?

So that was yesterday and I didn't noticed he had a lump of poop stuck to his furry butt! I had to shower him off at 2AM in the morning and by the time I was done settling him and mopping the whole house with bleach it was coming 4AM. So that's all the updates for now. Everytime I type our happenings it gets sooooo depressing.... So I can understand if you guys won't be responding anymore. 

Have a great week!!

ok, if you bring him to the vet, you can try have them prescribe an appetite stimulant. Is he losing weight at all? Is he interested in the canned food you gave him before? Because eating canned food is better than eating not at all, and if he really likes it, you can use it to trick him into eating real meat.

Hope the fortiflora works for you - not all of my guys go for it, but at least give it a sniff. Should it not work, there might be other things Charlie really likes. For example, the Rogue goes crazy for kale (not that I feed it to him, but I have a hard time keeping him away from any kale outside the fridge).

Sticky poo is a sign of, probably, too much liver... no more than 5% liver in the whole diet is recommended to prevent that.

Crumbled freeze dried chicken was a great topper for my cat

OK! I just bought fortiflora online and it's due to arrive 21st - 28th November... Can't wait to try it! Fingers (and toes) crossed that it's the legendary stuff and taste cats are supposed to like. Will post updates here when it's arrived.

Charlie's not losing weight anymore. He did lose 300 grams / 0.66 lbs before I transitioned to raw when I found out he was diagnosed with mild IBD / colitis. Vet didn't want to do any biopsies or blood tests etc but the symptoms are there. Loose stool at end with flecks of red blood, occasional vomitting only when he eats kibble and royal canin kitten food in the pink pouch. The only canned food he eats is ziwipeak (after trying every available can of premium grain free at my store, that's more than a dozen labels Charlie hates) and ziwipeak contains carageenan the vet suspects that might be the one irritating his GI tract. I have to agree with the vet, since eliminating kibble and canned from his diet, his poop is more formed, no blood, although dark in colour.

@roguethecat  yes I've cut down on liver increased a bit more bone, nice longish poop now. 

Keeping the snacks in containers also helped! @zoneout

I've checked his eye whites to see if they turn yellow from jaundice or fatty liver problems. So far so good. I will do a blood toxicology test for Charlie in a week's time. Or.... should I wait for fortiflora to arrive and if he likes it use it to increase his meal portions from the measly 60 grams of RAW he's on now? Then monitor....? If fortiflora does indeed work, I'll bring Charlie to do an allergy test to see what meats he can or cannot eat.

I've also been force feeding fish oil (he must be the only cat that doesn't like anything fish) and a vitamin B supplement for humans. @roguethecat  I read that vitamin b12 injections stimulate appetites? Is that what you're referring to? I wonder why my vet didn't give that to me initially. Let me call and ask.

Thanks again everybody!

I hope Charlie appreciates everything you are doing for him!   He is a very lucky cat to have such a caring owner.   I also think your vet is very good.   Around here, the vets are not so good.  

I've also been force feeding fish oil (he must be the only cat that doesn't like anything fish) and a vitamin B supplement for humans. @roguethecat  I read that vitamin b12 injections stimulate appetites? Is that what you're referring to? I wonder why my vet didn't give that to me initially. Let me call and ask.

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yes, I read that, too. My first vet at the time, unfortunately, is very conventional-textbook and just gave us mirtazapine. It apparently tastes really awful, gave horribly smelling diarrhea and caused the little prince to follow me around even more than he already did, loudly complaining about his state of affairs. It also is an antidepressant with the side effect to increase appetite, which it did.

also, ziwipeak stopped using carrageenan due to people complaining, around here anyway. This is what my sitter feeds when I'm away.

and, no one around here likes fish oil. Oberon even senses my intent of sprinkling it onto his back before I get the bottle out of my fridge... because, that's what I have to do, put it onto some furry part and then have them lick it off, back turned and sulking. My take is that it's not really important for a youngster to have it forced into them, but helps the more mature ones to improve the old immune system.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

• First, I understand you are still just trying to get him to eat more, but I would also really try to work on the variety; rabbit and fish oil does not a balanced diet make.
• Second... about fish oil... yeah, my cats hate it.  I end up just stuffing a pill down them twice a week. 
• I also supplement vit E and egg yolks 2-3 times a week (depending on my meat rotation). 
• Plain unflavored yogurt is okay as a once in a while treat, though watch for lactose reaction.  If you can get your hands on some fresh, clean, raw milk, even better.
• Patience, grasshopper.  Some cats respond to raw better and quicker.  I was not so lucky; Pippen took almost 3 months to transition.
• That reminds me... some folks will occasionally feed crickets/grasshoppers as a treat.  Toss a few into a plugged bathtub, and let the kitty have fun.  Might be worth a try, stimulating his natural hunting instincts and maybe his appetite.

Good luck, and keep us posted on his progress.  Hopefully the bloodwork will come back with an "all clear", and it's just a matter of who is going to be more stubborn. 

Dear friendly cat geniuses [emoji]128571[/emoji]

I've promised an update so here it is.

Day 1 - Fortiflora finally arrived n yeah! It's as "legendary" as they said it was. Sprinkled on beef which Charlie hates. He hates it so much he actually welches, loudly, and then goes on a hunger strike. Anyhoo, sprinkled some n he basically inhaled the beef chunks. Great success! Tried it with raw guinea fowl also one of his pet irkes.

BUT the very next day, our man decided he didn't like fortiflora anymore. So... Back to square one piling on dried liver treats with his favourite rabbit and pumpkin. Please note all this while he's on probiotics. And I've recently sprinkled a tab of taurine (1000mg) into this rabbit pumpkin liver treats mix. I do still leave beef n guinea fowl w fortiflora out like half a day n come back to an empty plate.

This continued with no negative reactions Since starting on fortiflora and taurine (life extensions brand). So he gets the beef n fowl he hates in the morning but when I'm back at 4-5pm in the evening I find the plate somewhat empty. Then dinner time is his favourite rabbit. @Furmonster Mom I head u on not giving him a nutritionally balanced meal. Have tried playing with the bone and liver ratio which turned out well until...

Day 4 or 5 Charlie's loose poop is back and WORST than ever though no bleeding but it'll just be a slushy mess. So this is when the other meats and fresh liver was eliminated, bone content still present, but back to single protein (rabbit) diet.

Next day - to my horror found greenish tinge at end of his softie like poop with slime covering the tip of it. I tried to smear it off and noticed that part of the slime covered poop was partially hollow. Gosh has anyone seen or experienced this?? Is it a bacteria infection?? Again all soft poop but no blood.

It's Day 8 now and he's been having loose poop once a day for the past 4 days now. Even after reverting back to a single protein diet. The upside is he is eating more! About 120 grams of rabbit per day w fortiflora sprinkled on it. This is a tremendous increase from the miserable 30-50grams of food he was on when we made the switch to raw about 4 weeks back.

I'm sorry to be splitting hairs here and I really do appreciate all your comments and experiences shared and advice. I am thinking of bringing Mr man to the vet this weekend (it's thursday today) as he is on probiotics since day 1 of raw and now his loose stool is back. Today's poop started out log shaped but soft and ended up in a liquified mess at the end.

Is it fortiflora that he's reacting to? Gosh that would be like the biggest most annoying oxymoron!!

Many thanks again everyone!