Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food?

Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone. I had wondered if it was the xanthan gum in the Weruva canned food. @AbbyNTim, didn't you say Tim had an issue with xanthan gum? I thought I read about someone's kitty getting diarrhea from that. It wouldn't surprise me, given Bastie's sensitivity to guar gum.

LDG said:

@GoHolistic, how's he doing now? Is there a reason - if the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea - not to go back to your prior rotation?

As to moving to all homemade, why not make - as suggested by mschauer - the recipe, just without the liver?

In the IBD group, we recommend starting with a bland diet. Plain roasted or poached something. Then sloooooowly add one thing at a time. If you suspect liver is the issue, then why not make the food without the liver, and see what happens? Then add it at meal time, the next time, if everything was OK without it? Or add it in a tiny amount first, see what happens. There's really no way to rule it in or out as the culprit without that step.

And @mschauer, the freeze dried vs fresh is fascinating. Sheldon and Tuxedo cannot eat fresh liver and keep it down.

They can both eat it freeze dried and keep it down. And Tuxedo loves fresh kidney - and keeps it down.

I have no idea why this could be. But we're almost three years into raw, and it remains true. And that is with Sheldon able to eat red meat (which he couldn't keep down) IF he is on the Vet's Best Hairball Relief. I assume the issue there is the enzymes in it. But even on that, he cannot keep fresh liver down. It's worthy of some kind of study, IMO.

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Funny you should post with these timely questions. I've been productive and was going to update. I don't know if the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea. He had liquid diarrhea this past Friday night (with discomfort 24 hours prior), and that was already a week or so into the antibiotics. 

I found myself pacing the house Saturday morning asking myself what to feed him and silently analyzing my options in a Boolean language.     I went out and bought plain meat baby food. Within 12 hours of eating baby food supplemented with taurine, he was very active and meowing in the kitchen for food, a remarkable change since Friday. I fed the baby food through Sunday night (so about 36 hours), and he had not had another BM. On Sunday night, I made the Simplified Beef Recipe without eggs or liver and offered a small amount. He loves it. I continued to feed the baby food while offering the homemade beef in increasing amounts. On Monday night, he had a solid BM!   He's now just getting the homemade beef. In total, it's been 4 days of unbalanced meals. 

So...I can plan to start introducing liver in small amounts in the next day or two. While I had originally wanted to keep the ingredients all from the same animal for my rotations, I did read that beef liver is significantly more rich than some other livers. However, the list our TCVM vet gave us for Chinese food therapy does show that chicken liver is categorized as warm/hot (which she instructed to stay away from) and beef liver is categorized as neutral. I do have beef liver and turkey liver on hand. I can easily get chicken liver at the local grocery store. What do you think?

Freeze-dried is still on the table as an option to try if Sebastian [over]reacts to even a tiny bit of fresh liver. It is very interesting that the reaction to fresh vs. freeze-dried is that much different. I did reach out to Dr. Ron's and inquired about their Liver organ supplement as a replacement for fresh liver, should we need to try that. They are supportive of this and say a lot of their customers do this for their pets. I'm sure you already know this.

Also, how do you recommend I cook the liver since I'll be offering it separately?

And, finally, in order to ease my mind of Sebastian not getting his nutrients during this transition, I'd like to offer him a feline multivitamin of some sort. I feel like I've spent a year researching feline multivitamins and I have been very unhappy with all of them. I gave it one last go on the internet last week and found a feline multivitamin developed by a holistic vet: http://www.deservingpets.com/product_p/fee90.htm. I have heard of this vet, so I don't know how I didn't come across this before. Other than the magnesium seeming a little high compared to other products I've looked at, it seems like it would suffice. Thoughts?

Many thanks.

First of all, GREAT news on the solid BMs!


Maybe mschauer will chime in on the multivitamin. I don't know how to evaluate them, as I look at balancing a diet - that's just outside of my comfort zone. :dk:

I have no idea who or what Dr. Ron's is. But I can't see any company that makes freeze dried liver having an issue using it in place of fresh liver. We already know the freeze drying process retains most of the nutrients. Look at all the freeze dried raw foods. :lol3:

I would like to understand your definition of "tiny bit." I feed modified prey model raw, and I provide them liver at one meal a day. The cats that eat other organs get liver at 5%, and those that don't get it at 10%. And as the most any of my cats eat a day is 4.5 ounces, the most liver any cat gets is 0.5 oz. Most get around 0.25 oz, and Ming Loy, who eats just 7/8ths of an ounce at every meal (2.625 ounces total a day) gets just 0.15 oz. To me, a "tiny bit" is literally the size of a small pinkie fingernail clipping. And as he enjoys beef and does well with it, I'd use beef if you're supposed to stay away from the warm/hot meats.

LDG said:

First of all, GREAT news on the solid BMs!

Maybe @mschauer will chime in on the multivitamin. I don't know how to evaluate them, as I look at balancing a diet - that's just outside of my comfort zone.

I have no idea who or what Dr. Ron's is. But I can't see any company that makes freeze dried liver having an issue using it in place of fresh liver. We already know the freeze drying process retains most of the nutrients. Look at all the freeze dried raw foods.

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Thanks. Sebastian is happy to have solid BMs, too. 

Oh, I read about Dr. Ron's here on this site I think. They have a whole product line of glandulars and organ supplements: http://www.drrons.com/organ-and-glandular-supplements/index.html. I like that there are no fillers or additives.

LDG said:

I would like to understand your definition of "tiny bit." I feed modified prey model raw, and I provide them liver at one meal a day. The cats that eat other organs get liver at 5%, and those that don't get it at 10%. And as the most any of my cats eat a day is 4.5 ounces, the most liver any cat gets is 0.5 oz. Most get around 0.25 oz, and Ming Loy, who eats just 7/8ths of an ounce at every meal (2.625 ounces total a day) gets just 0.15 oz. To me, a "tiny bit" is literally the size of a small pinkie fingernail clipping. And as he enjoys beef and does well with it, I'd use beef if you're supposed to stay away from the warm/hot meats.

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I have no idea, but I did envision a pea-sized amount as tiny.    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the Simplified Beef Recipe has liver at 5% with no other secreting organ, so I guess that would mean Sebastian should get 0.25 ounces of beef liver per day if he eats 5 ounces a day. That might be too much for him, but we don't know yet. I had planned to introduce it small amounts (0.1 ounce increments?).

Also, I know I'm not using the same recipe that he had a problem with originally (the turkey one). I couldn't get turkey thighs from Hare Today quickly enough because of the holiday and they are difficult to find locally. But my thinking is that if he can tolerate beef liver at 5%, then perhaps he would do okay with the turkey recipe if that is adjusted to 5% instead of the original 7%.   We'll see. He may only be able to tolerate 3%. Still so far so good on the no-organ bland version.

Well, you've got months, literally, to work him up to where he should be on the liver. You can start super tiny (the amount I have in mind probably wouldn't even register on a scale that doesn't measure grams), and slowly work up. I'm not sure that 5% and 7% would make a difference. I think the difference would be the rate at which it is introduced.

That said, as I mentioned before, Sheldon can handle a meal that is 0.75 ounces red meat, 0.75 ounces poultry: but it took 9 months to get there. Initially, even the pinkie-sized sliver of red meat made the entire meal come up. I used digestive enzymes and let his body adapt to the raw food for a month or two before re-introducing red meats to him. (So I guess it only too, 7 months to increase his red meat content to 50% of the meal. ).

I suppose his current three-week protein rotation doesn't quite work with introducing liver over a period of time.    It would probably take three weeks or more to introduce liver (as you said), but I typically change up the protein I'm giving him every three weeks. He's already been on beef for two weeks (canned for the first week) and I haven't even started the liver yet. If staying on schedule, next would be duck and duck liver, and I suppose duck liver would have to be introduced slowly, too. Do you think I should extend the number of weeks he's on one protein to allow enough time to incorporate the liver? Or do you think I should use beef liver for all his protein rotations (if he does okay with it)?

Also, the original recipe wants me to weigh the raw meat and then cook it. Since I'm adding the liver separately, I think I would have to cook it first and then weigh out the small amounts. Do you think it makes that much of a difference? 

By the way, he had another BM today. I was getting nervous because I don't think he went since Monday night! I was expecting a massive log, but it was only a couple small nuggets. I hope this is because his body is utilizing more of the bioavailable homemade food. I was expecting drier, brown stools, but they were rather shiny and lighter in color. I don't know if that means anything of significance. He's been acting great.    Knock on wood!

GoHolistic said:

 
Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone. I had wondered if it was the xanthan gum in the Weruva canned food. @AbbyNTim, didn't you say Tim had an issue with xanthan gum? I thought I read about someone's kitty getting diarrhea from that. It wouldn't surprise me, given Bastie's sensitivity to guar gum.

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Yes, xantham gum is on the list of Tim's suspect ingredients. When he was so sick, he projectile vomited every food that contained this ingredient. Even today, if he eats too much food for Abby that contains xantham gum, he gets nauseous. I just gave away all of our food with xantham gum, won't even let Abby eat it, because Tim is just too food-agressive and it's almost impossible to keep him from stealing at least a bite of her food. Tim is doing well only because I am closely managing his diet.

Glad to hear about the solid BMs! What meat are you feeding Sebastian right now? Tim eats rabbit for one meal and turkey for the other and his stools are definitely marbled light and dark. When he eats more turkey than rabbit, they are much lighter. Over the last couple of weeks, as I bumped his percentage of raw slightly, he went three days between poops and when he finally pooped, they were not massive. I would suspect you may be seeing something similar, but keep an eye on Sebastian.

Regarding the liver, I think you are correct that you will need to cook first then weigh. I don't know enough about liver to know if it makes a difference, but I would guess that some nutrients will be lost in the cooking process. I just have no idea how much, I am sorry I cannot help here.

And you might have to experiment with different livers. You might have to see how he does on a liver that matches his protein, versus a liver he does well on but that does not match his protein. Maybe start with the beef liver and see how he does. Get him through a full rotation of proteins with the beef liver, as long as he tolerates non-matching. Then maybe try another liver, and so on. More experimenting - ugh!

AbbyNTim said:

 
Glad to hear about the solid BMs! What meat are you feeding Sebastian right now?

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Thanks for your input. We're headed into week two of homemade beef. And I guess for now I'll have to stick with beef and beef liver long enough until I determine what he can tolerate. If I jump into changing another variable, such as feeding him duck breast and beef liver, then I won't know what could be the culprit.

Sebastian has been doing really well these past five days eating the bland beef without organs. He's been happy and prancing around the kitchen to eat. My SO helped me cook the beef liver yesterday (it really stunk up the house, BTW). I offered Sebastian a measly 0.01 oz. of beef liver in his dinner last night. Yes, you read that correctly...0.01 oz. It was a pea-sized amount mixed in well and he ate it. It seemed like he knew something different was in there and was hesitant at first.

This morning he acts like he doesn't feel well! He was meatloafing and didn't finish his breakfast. Is this really possible? Call it coincidence, but the recurring patterns are difficult to ignore. I won't panic just yet. I'll continue with 0.01 oz. in his breakfast and dinner (0.02 oz. total per day) until his next BM and decide then if he's cleared for an increase.

Ay ay ay...

Oh, so sorry to read that Sebastian seems to be reacting to a tiny amount of liver. I believe it, the amount, anyway. Each time I've added a new raw protein or brand to Tim's rotation, I've increased it at 0.1 ounce at a time. He's tolerating changes better now, but at first even that tiny amount caused slightly soft stools.

As I think about Tim's apparent extra sensitivity to higher levels of cooked fat, as he seems to handle higher levels of raw fat, I wonder if Sebastian could eat raw liver. Just the liver, not all the food. I don't know anything about liver, but I wonder if he'd possibly digest it better if raw.

Well, technically, I didn't come right out and blame the liver.    But I wanted to provide the timing since it could make a person such as me conclude that. My other theory is that he's backed up. He has gone from pooing every day to once in the last five days.

I don't know about feeding just the liver raw. We have tried raw several times (commercial and homemade) and the last time (homemade) it was a similar experience - explosive diarrhea, lethargy, and anorexia. He didn't eat for 48 hours. I had the support of a local holistic vet at that time and she encouraged a raw diet. When I called her about Sebastian's reaction, she had little advice to give. She had never had a patient react so negatively to such a small amount. She, as well as other resources, said that the reaction was not normal and advised that I discontinue. A few people I reached out to (not vets) who are familiar with feline GI diseases and raw diets told me that they have seen other cases of cats with pancreatitis that did not do well with raw diets.    Some soft stools and otherwise acting normal was fine. But this was not what we experienced, unfortunately. I now primarily consult with a long-distance Chinese medicine vet, and she supports a homemade cooked diet. I'd prefer to go this route if we can get it to work.

He didn't want to eat tonight.    I hope this passes.

How is Sebastian? Is he eating? Has he pooped? Is he generally prone to constipation? Although any diet change could cause this in a cat, as you know.

Reading your additional details, I can see how you would want to stay away from raw with him. If he continues to have trouble with this amount of liver, perhaps trying freeze-dried is an option. Or trying a liver from a different animal. Or, take a step back and give him even less to start with. As I mentioned above, I increased Tim's raw food in that same increment, so maybe this tiny amount is a lot for just liver.

AbbyNTim said:

 
How is Sebastian? Is he eating? Has he pooped? Is he generally prone to constipation? Although any diet change could cause this in a cat, as you know.

Reading your additional details, I can see how you would want to stay away from raw with him. If he continues to have trouble with this amount of liver, perhaps trying freeze-dried is an option. Or trying a liver from a different animal. Or, take a step back and give him even less to start with. As I mentioned above, I increased Tim's raw food in that same increment, so maybe this tiny amount is a lot for just liver.

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Not sure. No. Yes (read on). And no.

I was woken very early his morning (4:00 a.m.) by a cat scuffling around in the litter box. It was Sebastian. He has diarrhea.  I cleaned him up, scooped the box, and went back to bed. When I woke up a few hours later, there was more diarrhea in the box.

He was first offered the small amount of beef liver late Friday night (10:00 p.m.) and again on Saturday morning. By Saturday night he was noticeably "off" and was refusing the homemade beef, but I got him to eat a little just before bed. This morning (Sunday) at 4:00 a.m he had diarrhea. He has refused the homemade beef all day today, with and without the liver. He's sniffing and walking away, so he's either nauseated or he's associating the food with not feeling well. He did come into the kitchen just a little bit ago and acted like he wanted to eat, so I put it down for him again (without liver), and he won't touch it.

I could certainly reduce the amount to 0.01 oz. once a day, but it could take years at that rate. @AbbyNTim, you said you increased in increments of 0.1 oz., right? My amount has another zero in there (0.01 oz.)! If Sebastian is reacting to such a small amount, should we come to terms that he just can't handle it? Should I give the freeze-dried liver a try? This is ridiculous. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Oh, poor Sebastian! I am so sorry to read this.

I missed your other 0. I was envisioning the amount I was increasing Tim's raw, 0.1 ounce, which seemed significant. Adding another 0 makes the amount much, much less. If he's getting this sick on this tiny amount, it sure sounds like he can't handle beef liver. I would try freeze-dried, or another animal (when you switch proteins), or even skip liver altogether and use supplements, though I think that would be a last resort.

If it were me I would do what ever it takes to get him back to solid stools and leave him on that diet for at least a complete week (14 meals if fed twice a day) then try adding a bit of FD liver. The 7 days of solid stool is to make sure there isn't something else going on that isn't related to the food. In fact keeping him on what ever gives him solid stools for at least 2 weeks would be even better. This would actually be hard for me because I'm naturally impatient but I do think it would be a good idea. 

So, maybe the baby food for a couple of days then the beef without eggs or liver for a week of two.

Don't worry if the diet is unbalanced for a couple of weeks. He'll be fine for a short time.

Also, is he finished with the antibiotics yet? If not I wouldn't start the 'stolid BM' clock until he is completely through with them.

Quick vent: I've been out with the flu for three days. I haven't been this sick since college. I heard it was going around, but sheesh. Totally sucks. End vent.

AbbyNTim said:

 
Oh, poor Sebastian! I am so sorry to read this.

I missed your other 0. I was envisioning the amount I was increasing Tim's raw, 0.1 ounce, which seemed significant. Adding another 0 makes the amount much, much less. If he's getting this sick on this tiny amount, it sure sounds like he can't handle beef liver. I would try freeze-dried, or another animal (when you switch proteins), or even skip liver altogether and use supplements, though I think that would be a last resort.

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I'm really taken aback to tell you the truth. The timing was the same as it was with the original turkey recipe using turkey liver (24 hours after feeding liver the diarrhea started). But the amount of beef liver I gave him was so small, it's crazy that he could have reacted to it.

mschauer said:

 
If it were me I would do what ever it takes to get him back to solid stools and leave him on that diet for at least a complete week (14 meals if fed twice a day) then try adding a bit of FD liver. The 7 days of solid stool is to make sure there isn't something else going on that isn't related to the food. In fact keeping him on what ever gives him solid stools for at least 2 weeks would be even better. This would actually be hard for me because I'm naturally impatient but I do think it would be a good idea. 

So, maybe the baby food for a couple of days then the beef without eggs or liver for a week of two.

Don't worry if the diet is unbalanced for a couple of weeks. He'll be fine for a short time.

Also, is he finished with the antibiotics yet? If not I wouldn't start the 'stolid BM' clock until he is completely through with them.

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He's done with the full dose of antibiotics. We're at the weaning stage and he only has a couple more days at a very small dose.

I'm getting nervous about him being on unbalanced meals for too long. He's already been on an incomplete diet for 1.5 weeks. I have him back on baby food and I think the diarrhea is resolving. He seems to do really well on baby food, actually.    I can continue the baby food through the week (includes a couple extra days after the antibiotics stop) and then start up the beef recipe without eggs or liver for at least a full 7 days. If he seems to be doing okay, I can see about continuing this for another week before introducing freeze-dried liver.

@mschauer, I'm not sure if you saw my post about a supplement I found (http://www.deservingpets.com/product_p/fee90.htm). I wanted to get your thoughts on whether it would be okay to use that in the interim to ensure Sebastian gets his nutrients. On the product description, there's a sentence that mentions raw feeders, so I sent an email to them asking how their product is used among raw feeders and whether it could be used for cooked meat as well. The response I received stated that the supplement was specifically developed with raw feeders in mind; they simply add the recommended daily dose to fill in where the raw diet may be lacking in nutrients. They also said that it would be beneficial added to cooked meat as well. I followed up with a few more questions.

P.S. Here's my handsome devil waiting patiently for his baby food.  

ah, so cute... and nice manners, too!

The Rogue would have destroyed the Swiffer Vac and jumped up on the counter, sticking his nose in the baby food you're trying to open, smashing down whatever else you have sitting on the counter and getting clumps of baby food all over himself, you, and the immediate surroundings. All the while demanding food on top of his voice. His faithful followers, attracted by the mess, would affectionately squeeze against your legs, purring, effectively tripping you while you're trying to clean it all up...

(this actually happens frequently with ground homemade stuff intended for Rascal, not baby food. Luckily I don't own a Swiffer Vac.)

GoHolistic said:

@mschauer, I'm not sure if you saw my post about a supplement I found (http://www.deservingpets.com/product_p/fee90.htm). I wanted to get your thoughts on whether it would be okay to use that in the interim to ensure Sebastian gets his nutrients. On the product description, there's a sentence that mentions raw feeders, so I sent an email to them asking how their product is used among raw feeders and whether it could be used for cooked meat as well. The response I received stated that the supplement was specifically developed with raw feeders in mind; they simply add the recommended daily dose to fill in where the raw diet may be lacking in nutrients. They also said that it would be beneficial added to cooked meat as well. I followed up with a few more questions.

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Yes, I did miss that. That product looks interesting. I'll take a look at it in more detail this weekend.

roguethecat said:

 
ah, so cute... and nice manners, too!

The Rogue would have destroyed the Swiffer Vac and jumped up on the counter, sticking his nose in the baby food you're trying to open, smashing down whatever else you have sitting on the counter and getting clumps of baby food all over himself, you, and the immediate surroundings. All the while demanding food on top of his voice. His faithful followers, attracted by the mess, would affectionately squeeze against your legs, purring, effectively tripping you while you're trying to clean it all up...

(this actually happens frequently with ground homemade stuff intended for Rascal, not baby food. Luckily I don't own a Swiffer Vac.)

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  The Rogue sounds like a handful! My Boo used to be like that in his younger days.

mschauer said:

 
Yes, I did miss that. That product looks interesting. I'll take a look at it in more detail this weekend.

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Thanks. I appreciate it. 

I'm happy to report that Bastie had a rather good looking solid BM this morning - nice form, color, and consistency.      He's been on baby food since Tuesday morning, and we'll be working our way back over to the homecooked beef without eggs or liver this weekend. In the event that he decides to refuse the beef, I'm placing an order for turkey thighs since I can make the turkey recipe without eggs or liver as my backup.

That sounds like a plan. I think getting his bm under control for 2 weeks would be the goal. Like mschauer said just to hone in on liver as the culprit. I read that the liver stores vitamin A for many months so any deficiency would take many months to create. I wouldn't worry about the lack of liver at all for a few weeks. It is a non-issue.

Sebastian looks like he is getting his tail swiffered.