How much should newborns weigh?

Do you think they will all settle back into their nest when we get back? I don't want to upset her and cause her to hide the babies somewhere.

Thanks again catwoman. The past 3 days have gained only 1g, 1g, and 4 g. I really do feel like the little one is stronger yesterday and today. But I still wonder is this enough? What else can/should I do? Do I need to consider tube feeding or will that interfere with the progress we've made with nursing?

Is the momma cat feral or unsocialized?

If not, then I suspect all will be fine when you bring everyone back home. If you are concerned about her moving the kittens, then make sure you cat/kitten proof the room she is in before releasing everyone from the carrier. (Block off under and behind dressers, chairs, etc...)

I've taken many momma cats/kittens to the vet when the kittens were very young and have not had any issues when we return home. I will note that I usually set mom and babies up in a bathroom or a room with very minimal furniture (if any) so that I can always have access to kittens. But, even so, the moms are usually just happy to be back home.

MomSnickers said:

Thanks again catwoman. The past 3 days have gained only 1g, 1g, and 4 g. I really do feel like the little one is stronger yesterday and today. But I still wonder is this enough? What else can/should I do? Do I need to consider tube feeding or will that interfere with the progress we've made with nursing?

Click to expand...

Do you have somebody knowleable who can help you with such a tube feeding?

I see you have contact with your vet, but as I mentioned eariler, many vets dont know anything much about tube feeding. Wont and cant try even in desperate cases.

@catwoman707

If she has a blanket or towel in her nest, put that in the carrier with her and the babies. Then put the same blanket back in her nest without washing it. That way she has something that smells familiar all the way.

I have a friend who is a vet and she says her partner is good with neonates. I'm not sure if she does tubing or not but I can call and find out. She wanted me to bring them in for a checkup this week. I don't want to do it unless absolutely necessary since the baby is nursing. But I am worried about weight gain and it having to fight for the one nipple that fatty wants.

I'm feeling more and more concerned about the lack of weight gain, and will be happy to explain tube feeding in detail, but feel since I am not in person to actually show you, it can be risky and want you to understand this.

Only one risk but it can mean life or death, which is getting the tube into the lungs rather than the tummy.

If you followed my exact directions though, there is really no way to make that mistake.

Let me know if you think you want to do this and am happy to instruct on this.

Also, you will need a red rubber catheter tube, size is #5, and a 3 or 5 ml syringe.

These are only a couple/few dollars from any vet.

After spending many hours with this little kitty family I am convinced that the baby is healthy, just not getting enough nutrition. I know I am not getting enough down her and it is a big struggle. She has a good strong latch and sucking in mom and mom is taking care of her. I believe she is getting beat up by sister at feeding time when I'm not around. I am willing to learn tube feeding, but only if it is absolutely necessary. I will take the litter to the vet tomorrow and see if they can instruct me. We have the Texas A&M vet school and they have an amazing team. I would be surprised if they can't help. In the event I come home empty handed I will ask you for instructions. I am comfortable with anatomy and not afraid to try if that is the best option. I just prefer for someone to demonstrate first time.

Just got home. She has gained 2 more grams. Now at 120 g on day 8

Still so tiny and underweight. Moving in the right direction but not fast enough.

Despite her being healthy, she is not going to stay that way without some intervention it feels.

I'm hoping for a good update once you see the vet.

The more posting you do, the better I feel about the tube feeding with you.

I think this will be her saving grace, honestly.

Maybe twice a day being tube fed and the rest from mom, and I think she will catch up fast.

The thing that will happen with her, is the lack of gaining will catch up to her, and she will not seem healthy and well anymore. She will suddenly start losing ground and heading downhill, it happens overnight, and once it happens, it's a much tougher climb back up.

You are probably right on it too, very often it happens with the small one/runt of the litter.

Usually it's because they are not as feisty as the bigger ones about fighting for a nipple. It happens especially with full size litters, 5, 6 or more babies, and they are all fighting for their fave. The smallest one almost always loses, and that is why in time, they die. Nobody really gets this though, it's not due to being unhealthy (she was always the smallest one of the bunch type thinking)

No, it is not unhealthy, it is being bumped off constantly and wears out, giving up and going to sleep, then suddenly it catches up to them and they take a turn for the worse.

I took the whole litter to the vet today. Mama kitty was so good the whole time. The vet was hesitant to tube feed but after I explained her refusal to drink from a bottle and the struggle with a syringe she agreed that this was the best course. She demonstrated the procedure and set me up with the necessary supplies. I must admit this is scary the first time by myself because I know it's a life or death deal. If I hit the lungs instead of the stomach it will kill her. The vet said if I'm in the lungs she will cough and her cry will not sound normal. It will sound very different. She told me to feed 2 mll 8-10 times a day. Also to keep facilitating her feeding with mom. We just fed her for the first time at home. Hubby held her still while I did the feeding. All in all it wasn't too bad. She is now resting on my chest to keep warm while mama takes a break. I feel like we got it right but I still have a small amount of worry about the lungs. It's just must be done right!

Oh I remember very well my first few times, it's scary, no doubt.

There are a few little tips too. Not sure what all or how she explained or does it, but if you measure the tube properly, which I'm sure she showed you and marked it, (be sure to keep adjusting the mark as she grows too) use the last rib on her side, also I run the tube off to the side of the throat, and sliding it in, if you hit a point of slight resistance, pull it out and start over. It should glide down easily to the mark.

Not sure though about the number of times she wants you to do this. I mean, you WANT her to nurse too, and if she is always full she won't. Hmm.

The resistance is what I felt last night. They be wouldn't quite go to the mark before stopping. I started over several times. I read that if you are in the trachea that the kitten can't cry. The vet told me if she did it would sound funny. I did the little test with one drop of saline first to check for a cough. There was no cough so I proceeded with the KMR. She cried through the whole procedure which the vet said she would do. I think that is a sign that the tube was in the right place.

I fed last night at 11 pm, 2:30 pm and this morning at 6 am. This morning the tube went all the way in to the mark again. So that has me worried. Why not last night after at least 6 attempts but so easy this morning?

IF I was in the airway I'm guessing I would hear funny breathing or coughing after? Bubbles in the nose maybe? What are other signs to look for?

I wonder how far down it gets when you felt resistance.

Did she also instruct you to keep the head more down than up or how did she show the positioning?

How far away from the mark were you last night?

Is the tube marked from the lowest rib on the side?

If so and the tube was very close to the mark last night, there is a slight amt of leeway, I hate to say this because it being such a sensitive procedure, and when I say a small amt, it IS small. But some will measure the tube from the bottom of the sternum, where others like myself prefer to measure from the side of baby from the bottom of the ribs, so the difference between those 2 spots are the leeway here. Maybe 1/2" or so?

So if you are getting close to the mark but not quite hitting it, and it's measured from the side lower ribs, then not to worry, you would not be able to get that close and be in the lungs, it would stop before that.

Some babies cry through the entire thing, some don't. I have fortunately never had the tube go into the lungs so I don't know about the cry changing, but it does sound sensible.

Anytime there are bubbles coming from the nose, there is formula in the lungs, and while I can tell you to perform the swing procedure, I seriously doubt you would be able to get every last bit out of the lungs enough to prevent pneumonia.

FYI-the swing procedure is when bottle feeding, you think a drop or more was inhaled, you would immediately stop, put baby between both hands, with the head between your fingers, and the tail end at your wrists, fully supporting baby to where it is unable to move at all, raise over your head and in one swift motion, swing downward towards the floor, and hold there for several seconds. Repeat.

This is making gravity work for you in getting the formula back up. 

Almost the full length of the tube to the mark went in. I'd say 1/2inch or less was left to the mark. I noticed the vet didn't go completely to the mark either but it was close....no more than a finger width. When I tried, It slid down easily. She would swallow several times as I slid it in. Then it would stop. I couldn't push it any further. ( I was being quite gentle). There was definitely something stopping the tube. It felt like I hit something solid. I thought perhaps the bottom or back of the stomach.

The vet measured and marked the tube on the kittens side from the last rib. This is what I had read about and was expecting to see her do.

I haven't seen her nurse from mom today. She is sleepy and doesn't rouse when I try to put her on the nipple. She will wake up and squirm if the fatties are climbing on her. Then she will settle next to mom and go back to sleep. It's like it is too much work to bother with waking up. She's probably never had her little belly this full. I'm sure our syringe feeding sessions weren't getting this much into her stomach.

Exactly as I thought.

So good then, nothing to worry about if it doesn't go quite up to the mark. I think it's the bottom of her tummy actually.

The lack of nursing was my concern when she told you to feed her that often. If she can be allowed to get a bit hungry she will nurse again, but with a full tummy all the time, she very well may not at all.

It's kinda like she was advising that many times like you would a bottle baby, but with a nursing mom there it is meant to be more of a supplementation.

It's your call really, just think it's best for her to nurse sometimes, but get a boost from you via the tube

Soon she will be really catching up.

I bet weighing her tmrw will show a nice gain!

Oh no!  I woke up this morning and the little one was near death lying in the bathroom floor.  Evidently mom moved the litter out of the nesting box to the cabinet underneath the bathroom sink while we slept last night. The cabinet door was cracked open from where she opened it to go inside.  The little one wandered over to the edge and fell out of the cabinet onto the tile floor.  From there it had walked around a great deal, probably looking for the rest of the kitty family.  The baby was just laying there, not moving and was so freezing cold and breathing slowly.  I took it and made a hot pad for it to warm it up. (microwave a wet washcloth in a ziplock bag, place in a pillow case) I didn't feed it because it was too cold. I just warmed it up as best I could.   I moved the kittens to another nesting box in my closet, thinking mom was looking for a change of pace.  She jumped right in and joined them.  I put the tiny baby back in with the group and helped her latch on to mom.  She was still very sleepy and didn't act hungry, but she still latched on and basically went to sleep with the nipple in her mouth.  I hope she will be OK

Oh boy..............

Honestly? Not good. While it's possible for baby to recover from this, it's usually unable to.

The small size is going against baby. Of course it doesn't mean give up either, it's not in our nature to do that anyway!

You know, after so many years in rescue, despite my huge will to save them all, I realize that with human intervention, some/many can be saved who would have never had a chance without our help and support.

At the same time however it became so clear to me that, nature seems to know things that we just don't. 

Obviously many who are born outdoors to a feral mom won't make it, or mom's instincts sense something we can't see, so they take away a baby from the rest and leave it to die. This is to protect the rest of the litter, removing the weak link, despite her love. 

It's made me wonder how many of the ones we do save grow up to live normal lives, and just how many will show a defect in time.

All we can do is what you are doing, sometimes it's as simple as the smaller one being bumped off constantly, who really does just need a bit of help like supplemental feedings, and go on to be just fine.

But if there is more to it than that, while it's very sad, we need to understand there is an underlying reason, just unknown to us.

Nature is much bigger and much smarter than us, and we need to accept the reality of it, no matter how wrong it seems to us.

Just know you have done everything you can to help this little one along, whatever the turnout ends up to be.

Hugs.

when a kitten is so weak as she dont have the strengh to nurse, a trick worth to try is to smear some glucose sugar on its gum.  The glucose goes straigh into blood already from the mouth.

If you dont have real glucose at home, you may try with white caro syrup or honey.   Even common white sugar may work, but its much slower.

I wiish you good luck!

The little one passed on today. When I came home for lunch she was still in the box with the fatties, but over in a corner by herself. She was barely breathing and cold to the touch. Unmistakeably cold. I knew it was the end. I picked her up and she was as limp as a rag doll. She didn't have any voluntary movement. Her breaths were very shallow and far between. I tried to warm her but I think this last bit of handling by me was all her little body could handle. My boys held a little kitty funeral and burial for her when they got home from school. We placed her in the back yard under a huge oak tree where the rest of our pets are buried. I fought so hard for this little one for the past week. I understand it just wasn't meant to be. I have a clear conscience though because I know that I did everything I could for her. Those hours on the cold tile floor were just too much to overcome for one that was so weak to begin with.

Thanks to catwoman and Stefan for your advice and encouragement along the way. It is so helpful to have that sounding board and know that others care about these babies that they don't even know.

Our litter of 4 is now down to 2 but they are both strong and healthy. They will be raised with all the love in the world from our kitty loving family!