My first try to make the food from scratch!

cicoccabim · Sep 19, 2014

I finally feel that I have enough knowledge to make her food.... so today I took the dreaded step... I don´t have a proper grinder yet, so I used bone meal (recommended dose - 0.5 tbsp per 100 g meat). I added more heart than necessary since some of the taurine might be lost in the freezer.

500 g veal meat (grund, on sale!)

100 g heart (pork)

50 g liver (pork)

1 egg yolk

3 tbsp bone meal

a few drops of wheat-germ oil. (omega 3,6,9. She is allergic to fish oil)

I plan to add this mix (1/2 portion) to complete food, pre-made raw grinds with ground bones and organs (1/2 portion). And, it´s very convenient to be able to feed canned food when someone else will feed her, so I plan on keeping the wet food I give her (grain-free, with organs and bones in it) about half of the meals (at the moment- might decrease it later). And at the moment it feels good to know that oven if my balance of nutrients in her home-made is not perfect every time, she will get what she needs.

Is it balanced enough? More or less liver?

peaches08 · Sep 22, 2014

Here's a good recipe: http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html

I'm concerned about the lack of iodine in your recipe. The measurements may be OK, but I noticed your measurements of muscle, heart, and liver match that of the recipe with bone in it vs the one with bone meal...I don't know if any nutritional deficiencies may develop?

cicoccabim · Sep 24, 2014

I´ve done some reading about iodine- I do not feel good about adding salt.... and found that egg is a very good source for iodine. One egg yolk is appr 10 % of that batch. Two egg yolks?

peaches08 · Sep 24, 2014

cicoccabim said:
I´ve done some reading about iodine- I do not feel good about adding salt.... and found that egg is a very good source for iodine. One egg yolk is appr 10 % of that batch. Two egg yolks?

What reading is this, that has information against supplementing iodine? I don't know if iodine is mostly in the yolk or the whites, but according to the NIH 1 egg provides 16% of the DV for humans. I don't know what amounts cats need, hence I used a tried-and-trusted recipe that includes iodine. Since the recip already calls for egg yolks, I would think that the recipe you're using in contrast to Anne's and www.catnutrition.org may very well be deficient, and I don't know if adding another yolk will help with that. From what I understand, they also need potassium therefore need for the lite salt.

sophiegirl · Sep 24, 2014

How much cat food does the batch make and how long will it last? Sounds interesting to try.

silverpersian · Sep 25, 2014

peaches08 said:
What reading is this, that has information against supplementing iodine? I don't know if iodine is mostly in the yolk or the whites, but according to the NIH 1 egg provides 16% of the DV for humans. I don't know what amounts cats need, hence I used a tried-and-trusted recipe that includes iodine. Since the recip already calls for egg yolks, I would think that the recipe you're using in contrast to Anne's and www.catnutrition.org may very well be deficient, and I don't know if adding another yolk will help with that. From what I understand, they also need potassium therefore need for the lite salt.

cicoccabim · Sep 25, 2014

None of the recepies I´ve found in Sweden adds salt. And I´ve read a lot about it lately. Could it be that is has to to with different nutrient contents in the meat depending where and how it was breed? (i.e. ecological beef has higher levels of i.e. omega 3)

A lot of the discussions in Sweden is about variety of different kinds of meat in the diet. And that small differences in the nutrient content of the different kinds of meat will level it up? Sometimes more, sometimes less?

Getting confused.....

mschauer · Sep 25, 2014

cicoccabim said:
None of the recepies I´ve found in Sweden adds salt. And I´ve read a lot about it lately. Could it be that is has to to with different nutrient contents in the meat depending where and how it was breed? (i.e. ecological beef has higher levels of i.e. omega 3)

A lot of the discussions in Sweden is about variety of different kinds of meat in the diet. And that small differences in the nutrient content of the different kinds of meat will level it up? Sometimes more, sometimes less?

Getting confused.....

The recipes don't call for "salt". They call for "lite salt with iodine". The reason for it is the iodine. Hyperthyroidism is becoming more prevalent in cats and it has been suggested that a possible reason is that the amount of iodine in pet foods may be too low. In our home-made foods the iodine level will be even lower than what is in commercial foods if we don't either include thyroid gland in what we feed or else add supplemental iodine. Morton's Lite Salt also provides some potassium which helps bring the total potassium level up to what what the AAFCO recommends although I'm not sure how important that is to the formulators of most raw food recipes. Mostly it is for the iodine.

Lite salt is preferred over regular table salt with iodine because the table salt would add too much sodium. Adding some sodium (via lite salt) isn't a bad thing though. It is an essential nutrient and something our cats would normally get in part by consuming the blood of their prey.

Also, some recipes call for using a kelp supplement to provide iodine instead of lite iodized salt.

mschauer · Sep 25, 2014

Most sources say hyperthyroidism can be caused by either iodine levels that are too low or too high.

peaches08 · Sep 25, 2014

She also mentions the sodium and potassium in the blood (present in the ground rabbit, not in properly bled out poultry), but yes iodine is the main concern.

cicoccabim · Sep 27, 2014

I´ve poste this issue in a Swedish forum as well, waiting for answers. The thoughts about iodine in that forum is very divided. I´ll let you know as soon I know something more.

peaches08 · Sep 28, 2014

I'd be interested ton hear if they are using this type of recipe which is ground and without the thyroid gland, or if they are doing prey model with thyroid gland...those things could make a difference!

sophie1 · Sep 28, 2014

Curiously, people feeding prey model raw feed neither thyroid gland nor iodine supplements. Since iodine is an element it can't degrade with grinding, so if you need it in one diet form you should theoretically need it in all. I had the same question before about manganese.

I doubt anyone has The Answer but I would like to know opinions. My guess is that many cats are fine for periods of months or years but some may develop deficiency diseases if fed without these supplements for a lifetime. Since my cats are very young, I'm worried about the lifetime feeding scenario. It's one reason why I feed them at least 2/3 whole animal grinds.

cicoccabim · Sep 28, 2014

I feel the same- the lifetime scenario. So far the views are either or- "don't mess with the iodinebalance at all- don´t add, it is enough in the food itself", or "add it!" (appr 0.5 tbsp lite salt /algea per pound food). The common view if adding anything (besides bonemeal) is to be very careful not to add to much.

At the moment I will start adding a small amount of algae/lite salt (0.5 tbsp per 2-3 punds of food). I have no plans to feed raw only, so I figure that adding a small amount of iodine will not case deficiency or overdosage in the long run. But If I start feeding raw only I probably have to do all the calculations of "%" and mg........

sophie1 · Sep 29, 2014

Agreed - too much iodide over long periods of time isn't good, whether you're a cat or a human. I just checked and Alnutrin contains potassium iodide. I don't know how much though. That's a bit alarming given that some people feed their cats whole animal grinds with Alnutrin supplement exclusively!

Since I give the cats boneless meat/organ (meat chunkst) to bring down the bone percentage in the whole grinds and for dental health reasons, I think I'll start adding a half dose of the lite salt to the grind mixes. And will think about manganese also!

cicoccabim · Sep 30, 2014

Well- one thing is sure, there is always new things to learn, and you are never completely done! Good or bad???

One source at the Swedish forum advised me to ad 35 mg iodine per kg food (appr 2 pounds), a person who seems to know what they are talking about. But then- he (?) feeds his cats fish from the ocean one a week. And that contains a lot of iodine. Seems like I have to do the math after all.....

mschauer · Sep 30, 2014

cicoccabim said:
One source at the Swedish forum advised me to ad 35 mg iodine per kg food (appr 2 pounds), a person who seems to know what they are talking about. But then- he (?) feeds his cats fish from the ocean one a week. And that contains a lot of iodine. Seems like I have to do the math after all.....

The NRC recommendation is 35 ug I / kg body weight not 35 mg and not per kg food. That amount per kg of food would be outrageously high. The NRC recommendation per quantity of food is 1400 ug I / kg DM assuming the food has a calorie density of 4000 kcal/kg DM. 1 tsp Morton Lite salt added to your recipe would supply 970 ug I / kg DM. Given that there is probably a small amount of iodine in the veal, heart and liver, that would probably give you close to the NRC recommendation.

BTW, wheat germ oil isn't a very good substitute for fish oil. The purpose of adding the fish oil is to get the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids down. Wheat germ oil adds omega 6 fatty acids and very little omega 3 fatty acids where fish oil adds omega 3 fatty acids and little omega 6 fatty acids. Adding 1000 mg wheat germ oil to your recipe slightly increases the O6:O3 from 100:1 to 110:1. Adding 1000 mg fish oil improves the ratio to about 10:1.

Have you tried giving fish oil to your kitty? She probably wouldn't have a reaction to it. Allergies are to proteins and fish oil is fats. During the production of oils there is no guarantee that a small amount of protein won't be present but a small study showed that most people who are allergic to fish can consume fish oil without a reaction even if they are highly allergic.

cicoccabim · Sep 30, 2014

I will try to give her fish oil, when I feel that her system is in balance. The vet recommended me no to try to soon. She has an infected eye at the moment, so I feed her mostly balanced canned until that it healed. After that I could try fish oil.

I´ll have a look at the iodindiscussio on the swedish forum again..... have to check the mg/mcg.

cicoccabim · Sep 30, 2014

I probably had the wrong units....

The recommended amount per kg food was 400 mcg. And that means???

mschauer · Oct 1, 2014

cicoccabim said:
I probably had the wrong units....

The recommended amount per kg food was 400 mcg. And that means???

The NRC recommendation is 1400 mcg/kg DM. That means that 1 kg DM of your food should contain 1400 mcg of iodine. Is it the 'DM' part that you are asking about? That is 'Dry Matter' and means all the moisture has been removed. So if your food has 70% moisture then 1 kg of it would have 30 grams DM and 70 grams water. So 1 kg of that food AF (As Fed i.e. with water) would need 420 mcg (1400 * .3) of iodine.

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Edit: I just realized when you wrote "The recommended amount..." you were referring to the amount recommenced on the other forum. I thought you were asking about the recommendation I posted. So, the 400 mcg I / kg AF posted on the other forum would be about right for a food with 70% moisture. My recipes tend to be more like 75% moisture which would need 350 mcg I / kg AF going by NRC recommendations.

Also remember that the meats and organs in your food already contain some iodine and what you add via a supplement would be what is needed in addition to what is already present. Unfortunately it is very difficult to determine how much iodine is present in the meats and organs we purchase. If thyroid is included in the food we assume it plus what is in the other meats and organs provide enough iodine. Otherwise my assumption is that there is some but not a lot of iodine already present so I add supplemental iodine at a bit below the recommended.

My first try to make the food from scratch!

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