Cat Introduction Woes

Losna said:

 
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That's the most heartbreaking thing about this. He desperately wants to be snuggle buddies. She desperately wants to be left alone.

  

I've tried to wean him off being so dependent on me, with limited success. He bonded to me the day after we adopted him, and for several months he would cry whenever he couldn't see me, and panic when I left the house.

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I'm not sure if it would work, but I was thinking that maybe you could try a "cat harness" for each cat...but that would be difficult at this time, since Tempest wants to be left alone.

In this way, both cats would learn how to not run and bolt...that is only if they trusted each of you enough, to be their "safe people" while you are observing their behaviour in one room.

The other thing I'd suggest, is having more "cat scent swapping" but combine it with that purple afghan (beautiful), and use each cat bed, and get the cats more accustomed to each other's smells.

 Also to use your own clothes, and husband's...something old and dirty, so that each cat will get used to it...since it seems each cat has chosen a trusted person.

If the biggest problem is that Tempest just wants to be left alone, then I think, she would always need a safe place to run to, to sleep in, and escape to...(nothing wrong with that, since not every cat can be super social cats, some are just quiet and shy.)

A member on this Site, also suggested '"room swapping"...in which the human sleeps with one cat, in safe room and then with the other, but this would depend upon the space/or rooms available.

Are you more afraid that they will hurt each other...while playfighting?

Or is it that you just want Sinbad to calm down, and re-direct his playing to some other object?

I don't think they will ever become "snuggle buddies" but more like "room mates" who share spaces, and humans to feed them.    

cat nap said:

 
The other thing I'd suggest, is having more "cat scent swapping" but combine it with that purple afghan (beautiful), and use each cat bed, and get the cats more accustomed to each other's smells.

 Also to use your own clothes, and husband's...something old and dirty, so that each cat will get used to it...since it seems each cat has chosen a trusted person.

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We gave up on scent swapping a while ago. They react even more strongly to swapped scents than to each other. He will grab anything with her scent on it, hug it tightly and groom it. No matter what it is - sock, brush, dirty laundry, toy, blanket... if it has her smell and he gets near it, he hugs and licks and rubs his cheeks and purrs against it. This is why I am so certain that all he wants is cuddles and he isn't attacking when he charges her.

She hisses and attacks anything that smells like him. We had to buy her her own brush because when we tried getting them used to each other smells with a shared brush, she would attack it so aggressively she'd claw whoever was holding it.

It seemed that giving up on trying to accustom with smells caused them to calm down around each other. But was that a mistake? Should we go back to try again?

cat nap said:

 
If the biggest problem is that Tempest just wants to be left alone, then I think, she would always need a safe place to run to, to sleep in, and escape to...(nothing wrong with that, since not every cat can be super social cats, some are just quiet and shy.)

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She has nowhere to go that he won't follow. He gets SO VERY excited when he sees her, and he loves chase so much he thinks she is playing when she runs. That's the real problem, I think. Sinbad ... I guess he's an omega cat. He loves  being overpowered. Chase him down, pin him down, hold him down no matter how he squirms and whines ... if you let him go he sulks at you. A cat simultaneously purring and whining sounds so strange, let me tell you! His bouts of 'naughtiness' are usually nothing of the sort. He's just making a show of doing something he knows isn't allowed in an attempt to get me to chase him. I would never ever pin her down the way I do him, it seems like such a bizarre thing to do to a cat. But he just loves it.

It's really funny, actually. Sad little Sinbad, with a droopy tail... if he gets chased and cornered, his tail pops up into happy flagpole mode and oh are his purrs super loud. It really is adorable watching happy Sinbad with his tail straight up with a little curved 'flag' at the top running and purring like a rocket engine as my hubby chases him around the house. 

He seems completely incapable of comprehending that she doesn't like that, too, and she really is scared. I often see him trying to get her to chase him, because he knows she can jump the gate.

cat nap said:

 
A member on this Site, also suggested '"room swapping"...in which the human sleeps with one cat, in safe room and then with the other, but this would depend upon the space/or rooms available.

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We tried this, too. Sinbad goes bananas and tries to claw down her gate.  The best way to describe it is laying siege. No joke - he actually broke a claw one time. There is no real way to explain adequately how much of a family cat he is. Very protective. If he sees either my husband or I lying down anywhere other than the bed or the couch, he completely freaks out until he can make sure we're ok. It's touching and frustrating at the same time. He does the same thing with Tempest. She tries to hide being sick, but he always knows and he makes sure that we know something is wrong with her. Hairballs, conjunctivitis, upset tummy, empty waterbowl, she peed and needs a litterbox change, doesn't matter how small, he knows and sounds the alarm.

He really is like a total little stalker. It's no wonder she's scared!

cat nap said:

 
Are you more afraid that they will hurt each other...while playfighting?

Or is it that you just want Sinbad to calm down, and re-direct his playing to some other object?

I don't think they will ever become "snuggle buddies" but more like "room mates" who share spaces, and humans to feed them.

 

 

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I just want them to be able to sit in the same room. I'd love snugglebuddies - but I'm realistic. Sitting at opposite ends of the room seems a fair desire. Hell, I'd take opposite ends of the house! I want her able to leave her room. That's it, really. Doesn't seem too much to want. But Sinbad, the little frustrating darling, stampedes at her whenever there is no gate or tall daddy separating them.

I love him to death, but I am fully aware that he is the problem. Unfortunately knowing that hasn't helped us much. Due to his unfortunate early fostering, he really has emotional problems. It's very common for him to wake me up in the middle of the night by crying in a nightmare. They are slowly reducing in frequency though. Maybe once they are gone, and he has forgotten all the sad memories before he had us to love him, he'll calm down and they'll get along? Maybe?

Thanks for the compliment on my blanket. My husband was happy that it helped calm Tempest, but he sulked about losing it so much I am making him a new one. This one is prettier, I think. Sinbad keeps trying to steal it though. My hubby went out and bought me twice the yarn I needed for it so I could double it's length and he and Sinbad could share it and me at the same time.   

Oh I forgot to respond to the harness...

It's an interesting idea. I will have to see what my husband thinks about it. Sinbad may well love it.   

Eew, that sounds really scary and stressful @Losna    Sorry I've been MIA today but had work and family 'stuff' going on and only just free to come on line.  Cat fights are scary when they're for real, even if a cat doesn't get physically hurt - which I hope neither of them was.  I hope you and your husband have managed to do some repair and recouperation together even if Sinbad and Tempest haven't reached that point yet.  

I think cat nap has a couple of good ideas here, with maybe trying Sinbad on a harness so he can't launch in so quickly, and making sure there are plenty of bolt holes for Tempest too.  When you were scent swapping did you try scent masking rather than swapping as well?  Some people on TCS have talked about using vanilla to mask the scent of both cats to try and neutralise the situation a little.  I also agree that while what happened was an awful experience it is not all bad and while they have had a fight they have also both learned that they survived it -  and can get extra treats from you!  What Tempest needs to do now is associate the treats with being close to Sinbad, and he needs to learn his are for giving Tempest space.    

From what you have said today it is coming across more strongly to me now that Sinbad is looking for mothering, and some of his behaviours with you sound very like how Mouse is for almost the oposite reason - he was very closely nurtured by his cat mom until he was 15 weeks and she still tolerated feeding him until I adopted him - but he then bonded very strongly with me and likes me to play like he would play with his cat mom - chase him around and pin him down in the way she did - ,much like how you describe how he likes your husband to play.  And his clinging on to object with her scent too makes me think of attachment behaviour, like the blanket.   I really do feel for the little fur-guy because how you describe him gives such a strong sense of his need for company and warmth.  Another thing that makes me think if you could mask both of their scents with something like the vanilla it might alter the dynamics.

Also constant activity is another route to go - Sinbad sounds far too inteligent for his own (or your) good and if he could be physically and mentally enhausted he might have less bounce in his paws when permitted to be around Tempest, and possibly some familiar way to distract him so he would not home straight in on her when in the same space?  

One question which you might have answered somewhere but I can't remember - how old are they? 

@MServant   We haven't tried scent masking. I'm not sure what that is, actually! I just tried googling it, but the results were all about getting rid of litterbox odor, and that doesn't sound like what you're talking about. I feed them raw anyway so there is no litter odor. Can you explain a bit more?

He very much has attachment issues and wants to snuggle and share affection. He adopted one of my stuffed animals a while ago. He loves that little fox, curls up around it to nap and even grooms it.  It's very sweet and a little heartbreaking at the same time. I spend a lot of time with him, and he loves me a lot, but I don't think I quite fill that need for him. Here he is in a moment of his heaven, loving both his mommy and his fox buddy (you can see the fox's smoothed fur from the thorough grooming it had gotten
I'm such a sucker I stayed with him wrapped around my arm like that  for over an hour. He was just so happy I couldn't bear to leave him! I think I mentioned his hugging me in the other thread, here is a picture of it.      

As for activity... he's impossible to tire out. Because he has such chronic health issues he is very, very very  good at gauging his stamina. When he starts to wear down, he'll drop onto his back and bat at whatever toy we're playing with while he rests. Then he'll spring back up refreshed a few minutes later. My husband and I have tried wearing him out because it's one of the first things people suggest when they hear about his charging; we've tag teamed playing with him for literally hours.. and all we end up with is two exhausted humans and a very happy cat. 

He's around 2 and she's around 3. I don't recall exactly, although I don't think we know precisely. I know Tempest was found wandering the streets by animal control, abandoned and pregnant. 

Tempest will likely become a very affectionate cat, too. She is such a sweetheart with my husband! And to me to a lesser degree, but with at least 4 abandonments, she's taking a long time to trust. Although I am wondering, watching her today, if the fight didn't help in an odd way. She seems , surprised, I guess, that we haven't kicked her out. When I went up to give them morning treats this morning it was like she was getting them for the first time. She clearly thought she wasn't going to be getting any. 

Aw, poor Tempest thinking she had had a scolding and not deserving treats.  Fingers crossed she starts to feel more secure. How strange that the need for security can maniffest itself in such dfferent ways with diffrent cats (and people).

The scent masking is where you use a different / alien scent like vanilla essence to touch each cat so they do not get the natural scent from each other that they usually would and hopefully it means they can meet each other effectively for the first time, not having realized it is the same cat they have been afraid of / avoiding / fighting etc.  Of course what you also need to do is find some way of holding back Siinbad's natural boldness and desire for friendship so he doesn't overwhelm Tempest who comes across as more reserved.  Perhaps that is where something like getting Sinbad used to a harness first might help, so he can't run straight up to Tempest and start grooming her or something, and maybe have them in the same room getting snacks or what ever, as close as they can both be without Tempest getting stressed out.  Then build on that in a phased and controlled way assuming you can manage to stop Sinbad breaking in to her space again. 
He's never been one for cuddling blankets or toys but I went away for a few days recently and when I got back my house mate shared this picture with me, she didn't think I should see it until I got back because he looked so sad:

@MServant   Mouse is so cute!!!!!     I love the snuggles!!!

I don't think SInbad could handle me going away yet. I had another example of his panic thinking I was leaving this evening. He was napping in the office, and my husband left to visit his grandmother. Sinbad knows the sound of people leaving. I came back up to the office after seeing my hubby off and found Sinbad in the middle of a panic. He thought I'd left without telling him. But maybe it was more pronounced because he's still nervy from last night.

Although mentioning him in the office does bring to mind something interesting that hadn't occurred to me before. My husband brings Tempest into the office sometimes, and shuts the door so Sinbad can't get in. She naps in the same places that Sinbad does, without problems. They even both sleep on my shawl that we put in one of the little hidey cubbies. I assume she has to know Sinbad is spending time in there too? Wouldn't that shawl pick up scents from both of them? I wonder why she doesn't react with fear? When we try to do the same thing with the master bedroom she panics.

Very strange. If I could figure this out it might help us integrating them generally.

well,maybe that cleared the air after all that .But they arent hurt right??

It took me forever to stop yelling at Smoke every time he went for Cookie.

He wasnt drawing blood,but the stalking gets on the nerves.

Can you take him outside in a harness??You know,take the focus off Tempest.

Give him an adventure she isnt a part of??Can he see out the windows??

Maybe it would broaden his horizons a bit and decrease the intensity of needing them to adjust.

I dont know,just an idea.

Mouse is incredible.

@smokem  Sinbad's favorite post and bed are in front of a floor to ceiling picture window, that overlooks the garden. Right outside is the top of a trellis that attracts birds. It's his favorite spot in the house - after any spot he can cuddle mommy or watch Tempest, of course.

But he'll never go outside, not even on a harness. He is is simply too ignorant of animal communication. There are too many dogs around here - particularly overly large dogs that are undercontrolled by their owners. I'm not a dog person, I'll say that up front. But I'm not one to judge someone for the pet they choose to have - unless they can't control it. I've  been shoved around by several large dogs in the area, out with owners who are being walked. And there's a cat owned by a neighbor in the cul de sac that I've seen bullying both the pet dogs and the wild foxes that live in the neighborhood. 

So no walkies for Sinbad, he'll just have to manage with being chased around the house. 

Actually, less humorously, I'm also concerned about our new next door neighbors. Both Tempest and Sinbad have been jumpier since they moved in. I wouldn't be surprised if the fight was in some part caused by their presence. I've seen (and heard) through the windows that they can't control their children. So I don't believe they can control their dogs either. There have been a marked increase in animal fights since they arrived. Marked as in - I hadn't heard a single one in the years we've lived here, but there have been 3 that have woken me up since they moved in. They have made our neighborhood considerably less pleasant, and all without my ever interacting with them. I wish I could kick them out.

@Losna   You could be on to something with the noise and resulting stress from neighbouring property.

 I couldn't get Mouse to go in my sitting room for several days after he moved in - initially I thought because he caught a glimps of himself in a mirror at the oposite end of the room as he first went in the door to the room first day in his new home.  Freaked out, ran off and wouldn't go back there.  Then when he did start to make tenitive moves in to the space he was never relaxed, and this went on for about 2 years.   It was only gradually that I became aware of a smell building up in that room when the door had been pulled to, and then suddenly it got a lot worse and I started to look in to things a lot more.  Those neighbours were very quiet but some ominous stuff in terms of visitor paterns, trash disposal and this strong chemical smell - ended up with environmental health / police and probably illegal activities going on.  I reckon Mouse was much more sensitive and knew the room wasn't healthy.  

Then, just my luck (I do live in a really nice neighbourhood, honest, LoL) I got a group of nice students move in - except a couple of them are music students and one of them plays electric guitar and you guessed it -  Drums.   I could tell the minute I walked in the door when he had been playing drums while I was out because Mouse was jumpy and he never had been before.   Really on edge.  It took hom 6 to 9 months to acclimatise and although disliking the noise be able to feel safe and take himself off to the far end of the apartment where the noise isn't quite so bad.  If I had 2 cats, or a less chilled out one, I am sure it would have caused real problems.

It is really interesting that they are fine with scents of each other in this different room.  It might be worth trying the introductions in a controlled way outside Tempest's safe room and with Sinbad controlled a little, e.g. with that harness suggested earlier, with the items that they both use in this space.  Maybe let Tempest be the one to choose whether to go in to the space or not - might take many tries before she would go in of course.

Losna said:

 
We gave up on scent swapping a while ago. They react even more strongly to swapped scents than to each other. He will grab anything with her scent on it, hug it tightly and groom it. No matter what it is - sock, brush, dirty laundry, toy, blanket... if it has her smell and he gets near it, he hugs and licks and rubs his cheeks and purrs against it. This is why I am so certain that all he wants is cuddles and he isn't attacking when he charges her.

She hisses and attacks anything that smells like him. We had to buy her her own brush because when we tried getting them used to each other smells with a shared brush, she would attack it so aggressively she'd claw whoever was holding it.

It seemed that giving up on trying to accustom with smells caused them to calm down around each other. But was that a mistake? Should we go back to try again?

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if you decide to try scent swapping again, there might be a little different way you could try to approach it.

something i used to do when one cat went to see the vet's and the other cat didn't, to help remove the vet smell and put back more familiar and non-threatening scents on the cat who saw the vet. before bringing the cat to see the vet's, i'd gently rub both cats (one at a time) with the same towel. i'd leave that towel at home. when i got the cat (who saw the vet) back home, i'd gently rub kitty with that towel. in my experience with my two cats, doing this significantly reduced the hissing (from the cat who didn't see the vet) caused by the vet smell.

along those same lines -- two things you might consider trying, both having to do with mingling sinbad and tempest's scents --

gently rub tempest with a fresh towel, then gently rub sinbad just the tiniest bit with that same towel. put that towel in with tempest to investigate when/if she chooses to. the idea being that tempest will smell her own scent with just a very tiny smidgen of sinbad's scent in with it, hopefully she'll accept this as opposed to a towel or such with only sinbad's scent on it. if tempest accepts this, then slowly and gradually increase the amount of sinbad scent on the towel with her scent on it.

gently rub tempest with a fresh towel. take that towel and gently rub sinbad with it. this will transfer some tempest scent onto sinbad. i'm not sure, but this might possibly help when sinbad is visiting with tempest. tempest will be smelling some familiar scent (her own) on sinbad.

Hi Losna,
I actually think that all the things you are doing are all on track...and that the only thing that is missing right now, is allowing for more time to go by. (Which I think that feralvr mentioned early in the thread.)

(The idea of "room swapping" is one I read on @mickNsnicks2mom's integration thread, (and I only noticed now, that she also mentioned a cat harness...so I have to say..."great minds think alike."  )

Since you have already done the scent swapping with both you and your husband's clothes, and found that Tempest had a bad reaction to Sinbad's brush, but not the shawl...I am thinking that she may be somehow wanting you to spend more time with her, too.  Idk.  (If you could put Sinbad in a room, for say 2 hours, and then let Tempest follow you, or dote on her, maybe this would allow her to come out of her shell more.)

I don't think that either cat is the problem, but only that their personalities are so very different, and that it will just take more and more time, to reach your ultimate goal.

I apologize for that negative sounding comment I made, that they may never become snuggle buddies...because no one can actually predict the future, but I am glad that you are realistic in expectations, and are taking any improvement as a positive. (You are keeping your sense of humour, even when frustrated, so that is a good thing.)
 (In one year's time you may be posting another photo of both of them sleeping close or together.)  
So it may just be a "longer process to get there."

It would be very interesting to try what MServant suggested in the "scent masking" with vanilla, to see if Tempest would not mind Sinbad's brush? after the brush was masked with vanilla.
It is something that I have never heard before, yet seems logical, to mask a scent, and observe if a cat then reacts to the object in the same way. (I know MServant, was actually meaning, the cats, but I would be curious if objects, bother Tempest?) Does Sinbad's fox teddy-bear bother her, when nearby?

Tempest may be angry at Sinbad for not knowing when to leave her alone, but she may be wanting more one-on-one attention, from you..(and not your hubby...her fave person)
Instead of room swapping, you may have to do 'cat swapping' for a week, and see how it goes.

(that idea of yours is super, in "doubling the length of the new afghan", so hubby and Sinbad can share it...but I am just wondering if Tempest would get a little jealous about it. 

So you may have to lay with Tempest, and only her, for awhile.)   

@cat nap  She does want time with me. She will often run excitedly to the gate when I go up, and when I do go in she'll jump into my lap and knead and purr. I'd like to spend more time getting to know her too.

The problem is ... sense a pattern? ... Sinbad. He goes absolutely bananas when I'm in there. At one point, I thought that he was just going to have to get used to  my spending time with Tempest. But it soon became clear that I need to wean him off being so dependent on me before that can happen.

Perhaps it might help if I describe a bit more. We continue to be in contact with the shelter where we adopted them. My husband goes there volunteering for several hours every saturday and sunday, and I keep in contact with them via Facebook. They love to see pictures and hear about how Tempest and Sinbad are doing. Tempest in particular - she was fostered by the president of the shelter and her husband so is particularly special to them. She gave me her personal cell phone number and told me to call her any time if I needed advice.

The first month or two, I was calling her multiple times a week. She and her husband came over to try and help us. Her ultimate conclusion was that Sinbad had taken me  as his territory, rather than the physical house. She said she's seen that in cats a few times, they get so dependent/possessive of a person that you have to treat another cat interacting with that person as though you are introducing a new cat into a house with a resident cat. 

If he falls asleep, and wakes up and can't find me - he panics. I have to wake him up to let him know I'm leaving whenever I leave the house, because if I don't, when I return he's shaking, scared and hiding somewhere. He used to be that way whenever I left the house, I consider it nice progress that now he can manage if he has a piece of clothing that smells like me so long as he knows when I'm leaving.

If I go in and spend time with Tempest, he literally starts throwing himself against her gate trying to knock it down so he can get in to me. He broke a claw one time frantically trying to get in, and makes very aggressive possessive displays over me. 

And Tempest knows it. She is not afraid of me, but she knows that I am Sinbad's. So even as she is trying to happily snuggle with me, she is nervously shooting glances toward the door every 30 seconds or so. The moment she sees him, she jumps off me and runs to the other side of the room. I have to time my visits with her because if I'm not paying careful attention, the end result is a growly, aggressive encounter between the two of them - it's the only time Sinbad is not trying to snuggle with her, he wants to protect his mommy territory.

He does similar with my husband, to a lesser degree, when my husband tries to sleep in Tempest's room. Only this type of gate-crashing is motivated by worry. Sinbad is really a protective darling.

The combination of that with his super amazing strong want to snuggle Tempest is what is making this so difficult.  

I'd thought they were making progress. I still think they were. But now Sinbad has figured out how to get into her room  - we just had a second cat fight tonight when he scaled her fence and started chasing her around again. Her safe room is no longer safe and we're not sure what to do now.

At least my hubby understood what I was trying to tell him when we had our fight the other night though. He didn't shout, he didn't get mad at Sinbad, he just threw a pillow case on him and picked him up and put him outside Tempest's room for me to carry away. But the sucky thing is now we have to keep the door to her room shut except when we're directly there supervising. Which isn't fair at all to her. 

I'm so tired, I hope this is making sense. But he is really so emotionally needy, clumsy and clueless that he will and does hurt himself.  

I will have to see how she reacts to the fox, it's an interesting question. I suspect if it's brought into her room, she'll attack it, but if it's put in the office and she's brought in, she'll ignore it.

Playing with scent masking is trickier, as I am allergic to many scents. I can't go into department stores because of the perfume section, and I have to be constantly paying attention when I'm out in public because I can have allergy attacks in response to people wearing perfume. I have problems with scented candles, air fresheners, etc. I actually had an allergy attack tonight, because a friend visited us and he had been around someone wearing lots of perfume prior to coming over. Scared the bejeezus out of him, heh. My hubby was in the bathroom so I let him in, and 5 minutes later I was coughing and struggling to breathe. 

I am curious how much time you're thinking. We've been working on this for 7 months or so now. 

@mickNsnicks2mom   Those are scent methods that we have never thought of. I will have to try them. 

Thank you everyone for your continued responses. I really do appreciate it a great deal.

Ugh, that was a long maniacal splat. Sorry, I was too strung out on meds to wait to post. Let me know if it's unintelligible. 

Losna said:

 
Ugh, that was a long maniacal splat. Sorry, I was too strung out on meds to wait to post. Let me know if it's unintelligible. 

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You are too hard on yourself.       No, it was not difficult at all, to understand, and I appreciate that you went over things from before, so people can brainstorm more, and maybe get some other ideas.   (I hope you do feel better, though.)  Like you said, everyone's help here is good, since new ideas are found, and leads to further progress. I find that reading the "Articles" section on TCS helps, because I look under the tabs...and find articles that are short, with new ideas that I would never have considered.  At least for me, I end up reading them over, because I sometimes do not absorb things the first time.   

It's fantastic, Losna, that your husband volunteers in the cat shelter. 

@Losna....If Sinbad is placed into a room with the door closed, and he does not see you interact with Tempest...would he freak out then? Or would he just sleep?
The key would be that Sinbad would not see you with Tempest, and therefore not want to go into "cat guard-duty mode" or even "separation anxiety". (for only a short span of time...like 1-2 hours).
But getting him over his separation anxiety would be another issue.

"The combination of that with his super amazing strong want to snuggle Tempest is what is making this so difficult."
 
" I'd thought they were making progress. I still think they were. But now Sinbad has figured out how to get into her room  - we just had a second cat fight tonight when he scaled her fence and started chasing her around again. Her safe room is no longer safe and we're not sure what to do now".

No, don't do the scent masking, then, because you are highly allergic, and it would be too dangerous.  (If there would be some scent like baking apples, baked cookies, or something mild and calming, but I still would NOT try, if allergies and health are involved.)

My thinking is it will take 1 year and a half...so I think you are 1/3rd of the way there.  (another 12 months to go). 

Tempest definitely needs a safe room, high space, or somewhere to retreat to, so like others have mentioned, an old screen door, (even one that is home-made...with fabric mesh, and a light wooden frame, would be okay).  Or I think you mentioned that you used 2 gates. (And yes, it seems like you are going through, the introductions all over again, but only until Sinbad is not charging.)

When they fight, is any fur being pulled out?  Any bad scratches?
How was Sinbad, on the day, you had that foster cat over?  Were there huge fights, then?

@cat nap  I don't know if it's too tough so much as me seeing the stress, sick and meds in the tone of my posting.

I envy his being able to volunteer. I help out when I can, but I can't commit to being in public places where any random person can come in. I do not ever want to have someone relying on me at a time when I have to drop what I'm doing and run out or risk a medical emergency. 

cat nap said:

 
@Losna....If Sinbad is placed into a room with the door closed, and he does not see you interact with Tempest...would he freak out then? Or would he just sleep?

The key would be that Sinbad would not see you with Tempest, and therefore not want to go into "cat guard-duty mode" or even "separation anxiety". (for only a short span of time...like 1-2 hours).
But getting him over his separation anxiety would be another issue.
 

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This is what I meant by timing visits with her. 

If he is placed in a room and the door is closed, preventing him from getting to me, he panics. If I go into a room and close the door, preventing him from getting to me, he lays siege to the door. I am no longer able to close the bathroom door when I'm in there. When guests are here that means I have to use the master bathroom. 

But if I catch him at the right moment in his nap cycle, I can go snuggle with Tempest for an hour or two and he is none the wiser. She is very cute and dainty.

We just put up 3 gates. I feel badly for her, because this robs her of her ability to climb on top of them - she loves sitting on top of the two. But better that than him in there chasing her around, or closing the door and completely cutting her off from everyone.

Really, the only problem at this point is his chasing her. We took it very slowly once we saw how their personalities were interacting!! But it has clearly paid off in that they are now able to be very close through the gate with no problems at all. Even now this morning, after cat fight #2, I just left them sitting less than 6 inches apart on either side of the gate, working together to try and con mommy into giving them treats. I've seen them bumping noses through the gate, playing "patty cakes" she even pounces mischievously on his tail when he sits in a way that pushes it through the holes in the gate. Ever since that one post of mine where she wanted the gate down, she is actually working very hard to try and find ways to be friends with him, it's so heartwarming to see. But once that gate comes down he immediately charges excitedly for cuddles and ruins it all.

Up until these last two, they never actually fought. It was just chases, hisses and growls. These last 2 she actually drew blood, but just scratches. He routinely hurts himself worse than what she did to him. it's clear that neither of them really wants to fight, she just wants him not to chase/cuddle her. I honestly don't think he even realizes they are fighting, even when she's clawing him and wailing in terror. 

 I brought up the harness idea to my husband, and he didn't think it was a good idea. As he puts it, Sinbad manages to tangle himself while playing with us with his wand toy. What's he going to do when he's frantically struggling to get at Tempest while tied up? He has a point - I quite literally can't hold Sinbad when he's trying to get those Tempest snuggles. He squirms and flails and struggles with all the fervor he can manage, and that is quite a lot!

If we could just break him of his charge/snuggle response, I think all would be well. Seeing them this morning during treat time gave me confidence in that regard. But thus far, we've been unable to even slow him down. Her accepting his snuggles would also solve the problem, of course, but I don't see that likely to happen - if she ever does consent to cuddles, it will be a while after they are able to be in the same space.

Oh, I forgot to answer about Otis. That's a tough nut to figure out. Sinbad was VERY hostile. It actually surprised us how hostile he was to Otis. I interpreted it as Sinbad's possessiveness of me. My husband has a different theory though.

It turned out that I was very horribly allergic to Otis. After I spent time with him, I had a very bad allergic reaction that left me barely able to breathe and completely unable to speak for most of the day. My husband thinks that Sinbad noticed Otis was having that affect on me before it became serious and he was so hostile trying to protect me.

Originally Posted by Losna  

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Really, the only problem at this point is his chasing her. We took it very slowly once we saw how their personalities were interacting!! But it has clearly paid off in that they are now able to be very close through the gate with no problems at all. Even now this morning, after cat fight #2, I just left them sitting less than 6 inches apart on either side of the gate, working together to try and con mommy into giving them treats. I've seen them bumping noses through the gate, playing "patty cakes" she even pounces mischievously on his tail when he sits in a way that pushes it through the holes in the gate. Ever since that one post of mine where she wanted the gate down, she is actually working very hard to try and find ways to be friends with him, it's so heartwarming to see. But once that gate comes down he immediately charges excitedly for cuddles and ruins it all.
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@Losna   What would your husband think of putting Sinbad in Tempest's room for the day ? (while Tempest is out of her room and walking about)?

(the harness idea, I had to try, only because one of my previous cat's bolted off the examining table at the vets. He basically ran around the room, but my young vet just calmly held the doorknob to one door, and told me to go over and make sure the other door stayed closed. We waited for about 30 seconds and then the cat settled down and stopped, and actually came over to me, when I talked to him.  Ever since that experience I try to put my cat in a harness, so there is no repeat performance.  You would have to introduce it in stages, but I understand your husband's thoughts about getting all tangled up.  Yes, they do have to just wear the harness, without the lead/leash at first.  Then build up to just walk around in one, for longer periods (under supervision), and then finally with leash, and you have to go by the cues of your cat, and take the lead off if he struggles or starts to roll around.)

I think I may be asking you too many questions, and that it may be causing you to feel more tired...so if I come across any new ideas or information, that is useful, I will try to post it here.

Again, if they are sitting 6 inches apart, then that is certainly progress.

So, yes, if we could just think of a way to make Sinbad understand that charging and wrestling/cuddling is not wanted by Tempest, then things would calm down.   

I may be about to make things more complicated... or possibly easier... HAH!!

We went to the shelter today and I fell in love with a little boy. He's a poor little guy who is the survivor of a split bonded pair. He had Sinbad's body language so much that if you switch out the furs they could have been the same cat.  We didn't want a third cat, but I just wanted to steal him and take him home so we may try the foster for a week experiment with him if he isn't adopted this weekend and seeing how he and Sinbad interact.

Apparently he and his sister were cuddlers, and his sister was the outgoing one. So he's a little bit shy, likes to cuddle with other cats, and is used to be pushed around by an overeager snuggler. So he may well solve the problems...... maybe? But I am worried about bringing another cat into this mix. What do you think?

Is it wrong to say...."I think I'm in love!"        

I am so rooting that you can get this guy, or some cat like him, and that Sinbad's "cuddle need" for cats are met.      Here's Hoping.