23 degrees!! What to do for kittens/puppies?

Originally posted by WillowsMom
By law in most states the dog is considered your brother property since possesion is 9/10th of the law. He is now considered the rightful owner of shelby. as for Mom killing the puppies chances are she is diong it to increase the rate of surivial for the others. she and allthe puppies are cold, she's doesn't have enough body warmth to care for all of them so she is doing what she thinks is best. And even though she knows she is doing it she still has the mother instinct to save her babies dead or alive. I suggest you be mighty careful when getting one of the dead babies from her. She just might get a little to angry and snap at you if not totally bite you. I suggest that you find someone who would be willing to take just the puppies and care for them. At least save the ones that are left! you living in the country I am sure there is someone in your area that loves and cares for dogs. you just need to do some asking around. Then I suggest you let your brother know that by law he is considered the owner of shelby and that he has the right to spay her and is totally resposiable for her well being.

Click to expand...

*Danny is my uncle not brother*
I didnt know that! Doesnt matter though he's done said as soon as her puppies are old enough to be moved then hes gonna get sarah (mike's mother) to come get her and the puppies. Sofar she hasnt tried to bite me or anything...so I dont think she will. I'm still very carefull though. Sofar the last 3 are all alive and well and have been for almost a week. I think she's gonna let them be ok. If your sure that Mike cant sue him or do some legal thing if Danny gets her fixed, then I'll tell him. Legally I personally dont think the law's gonna be on Mike's side as much as he's been in jail for drinking! Hopefully Danny will give her back to sarah. I've known sarah for years and she's a great woman...she'll take care of shelby or find someone else that will.

Originally posted by CharmsDad
Amber,
It's possible but unlikely that Amber is killing the puppies. They may be dying from the cold, or she may not be able to nurse them well enough.

Click to expand...

You just said it's unlikely for ME to have killed the puppies and that I may not be able to nurse...umm..

On the first night you mentioned that the one pup was separate from the others. There may have already been something wrong with it, or mom may have already determined she couldn't support it. It's still very sad.

Make sure mom has plenty of fresh water, and is fed at least two times a day (three or four would be better.) Her food should include extra fat (read: canned food!) and puppy food would be best for her. You can increase her intake by mixing a can (or one and a half) with some dry food and adding hot water to make it about the consistency of stew. Ensuring mom is healthy will increase the chances for the pups. If you sit with mom and hold the pups while she eats it will reassure her and help her to eat better. I can't emphasize enough how important mom's health matters (both physical and mental.)

Above all, if possible don't separate the pups from mom. Their chance of survival goes down quite a bit if they're separated. I've hand raised a number of underage pups and I can tell you it's a LOT of work, and the survival rate is better with mom even with an experienced person taking care of the pups.

This is absolutely NOT true. Your brother is caring for someone else's dog so he's already indicated he knows he has a caretaker rather than a owner status. This is no different than boarding an animal and your brother does not have owner's rights over this animal. This is true in every state in the US.

Keep us up to date.
George

Click to expand...

I've been assuming that too. This isnt the best time for puppies!!!

I've been feeding her alot of food every day. Dang does that dog eat!! Every bowl of food I put out she eats immediately! She seems to be doing better now that she's getting fed more. I havnt wanted to touch them cause I'm afraid my smell would make her reject them.

No way in heck would I seperate them. It wouldnt be heathy for either of them. If Danny tries to give her to sarah before they are old enough to give away, I'm gonna make sure they are healthy and old enough to be moved. Hopefully he can wait untill they are weaned.

Which are you saying? He can or cant fix her?

You just said it's unlikely for ME to have killed the puppies and that I may not be able to nurse...umm

Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion, I guess I'm not catching the names or relationships correctly. It's unlikely the mom actually killed the pups, and you had nothing to do with their deaths. If it wasn't for you trying to help them they all would likely be dead by now. In large litters, especially if mom hasn't been well fed during the pregnancy, the survival rate tends to be on the low side.

Which are you saying? He can or cant fix her?

Click to expand...

Can NOT! Of course, I don't know all the dynamics of this whole situation, but the legal owner of the animal is the only one that can approve the spay/neuter. I wish I could tell you different since it seems it would be in everyone's best interest, particularly the mom.

Don't worry about handling the pups, it won't make the mom reject them and will give you a chance to look for health problems. Be safe though, make sure mom is OK with you touching them. It's also good for the pups to be used to human contact. Make sure the feel warm and check for sniffles and stuff around the nose and eyes.

You are doing a good thing looking after mom and the pups. I hope you can get everything to work out for the best.

George

Here is a good dog site: http://www.doggroups.com/

Good Luck
Clara

Well sofar so good. It's been over a week and still all 3 are ok. Maybe she's finally going to let them live.

Originally posted by CharmsDad
Sorry for the confusion, I guess I'm not catching the names or relationships correctly. It's unlikely the mom actually killed the pups, and you had nothing to do with their deaths. If it wasn't for you trying to help them they all would likely be dead by now. In large litters, especially if mom hasn't been well fed during the pregnancy, the survival rate tends to be on the low side.

Can NOT! Of course, I don't know all the dynamics of this whole situation, but the legal owner of the animal is the only one that can approve the spay/neuter. I wish I could tell you different since it seems it would be in everyone's best interest, particularly the mom.

Don't worry about handling the pups, it won't make the mom reject them and will give you a chance to look for health problems. Be safe though, make sure mom is OK with you touching them. It's also good for the pups to be used to human contact. Make sure the feel warm and check for sniffles and stuff around the nose and eyes.

You are doing a good thing looking after mom and the pups. I hope you can get everything to work out for the best.

George

Click to expand...

It's ok...sometimes my typing confuses people. I dont have much time and type fast. *shrugs* sorry...just let me know if you need more details. If she didnt kill them then why did I watch her throwing and shaking one?? I do my best to help them. Even though noone here at home seems to want them, I dont think they should be left alone or not taken care of. She wasnt fed asmuch as she should've the first day or before. I found them on day 2 and have been regurlarly sneaking more food to her. My uncle doesnt feel she needs more...he is he dumb! She's nursing...she needs more! Twice a day is not enough! Especially with her being so big!

I wish he would give her to Sarah more than I wish she could be fixed. (oh and I thought it was something he couldnt legally do glad I was right...wait no I'm not cause that means more puppies....grrr)

I havnt messed with them except to remove the dead because I'm afraid she'll kill the last 3. I make sure they are moving around like usually, are healthy, and arent sickly. My cats have had colds so unless it's different with a dog I know what to look for. I've never had anything happen handling my kittens...but I've also never raised puppies.

Thanks...I'm doing my best and hopefully whats right. She does seem happier now that I'm taking care of her. Maybe the attention and the food is helping and why the 3 are still ok.

Originally posted by clarabelle
Here is a good dog site: http://www.doggroups.com/

Good Luck
Clara

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! I found some puppy info

You're correct, she needs more food when she's nursing. And as the pups get older she'll need even more since they'll need more milk from her.

What you saw with her shanking and throwing one was a desparate attempt on her part to revive the pup. This is common in dogs (and wolves, coyotes, etc.) when a pup dies. I've heard stories of it actually working, but never seen it work that myself. I have seen other mom's do that with dead pups. It's highly unlikely that the momma dog killed the pups. As I mentioned, she was most likely trying to save them. (You're not the first to see this behavior and be concerned. I've had to deal with a few people that considered themselves "canine experts" who were unfamiliar with it and also thought the mom was trying to kill the pup. On the other hand, most experienced breeders have seen this behavior.)

It should be OK to handle the pups. Actually, it's most likely mom will appreciate any attention you give her at all, including spending time with her while you handle the pups. Dogs that are used to people are generally happy to let you around the pups. In canine society the pups are immediately part of the pack and have a special status, and domestic dogs consider people part of their pack. If mom is not used to people and is defensive, be careful. It is important to observe mom's actions though. You know this dog so you should be able to judge if she's agitated with your being around her or the pups. As with any dog, it's important to be safe.

Maybe the attention and the food is helping and why the 3 are still ok.

Click to expand...

I believe this is absolutely true. Sounds like mom needed both desparately. You are their guardian angel. Without your help there's a good chance none of the pups would have survived. Bless you for what you've done and what you're doing.

George

The pup she was doing it to was very much alive and every time it went to nurse shed take it to the back of the house and shake it. Almost like she didnt want it to nurse...The dead ones she just licks.

I'm too afraid she'll reject them if I touch them. I try to be sterile as possible, but It's still possible for her to smell something on them she doesnt like. I dont wanna risk it atleast untill they're older so that just incase I can raise it by hand.
I mainly love on her cause she needs it alot. She's a good natured boxer, but shes not used to as much attention as I'm giving her. Danny works alot and isnt home until late at night.

I believe this is absolutely true. Sounds like mom needed both desparately. You are their guardian angel. Without your help there's a good chance none of the pups would have survived. Bless you for what you've done and what you're doing.

Click to expand...

*blushes* aww...I wouldnt say that..I just love all nature and life and dont want her to be miserable. It's cold, she's lonely and hungry.
Thanks...I'm gonna continue to do it. Grandma still doesnt think it's my place or that I should mess with them, but I still dont care. I'm gonna do it anyway.

The pup she was doing it to was very much alive and every time it went to nurse shed take it to the back of the house and shake it.

Click to expand...

I would expect there was very likely something wrong with the pup. Dogs are generally extremely good parents, some of the best in the animal world. (Wild dogs, wolves, etc, are among the very few animals that will take in a lost or orphaned baby and care for it. Most other species will ignore or even kill a young animal that is not their own.)

I hope the three remaining pups are doing well. They can all thank you, their guardian angel.

George

That's what I was assumming especially since now she's 'let' these 3 live.

UPDATE: All 3 are ok and are doing great. Strong and growing fast!

All 3 are ok and are doing great. Strong and growing fast!

Click to expand...

That's great news. Have you come up with names yet?

George

I dont dare to! It would make me like them more than I do and I know I cant keep them....I'm just glad sofar they are ok.
oh what is the age I can wean them..safely?

oh what is the age I can wean them..safely?

Click to expand...

It depends on their health, but generally 8 weeks is a safe age. See if they'll eat some puppy food as early as 5 weeks, but don't separate them from mom until 8. If they can stay with her longer that would actually be a good thing.

George

Ok thanks. I just wanted to make sure. I always try to keep any kittens I've had atleast a week - 2 weeks longer than the weaning age. Last thing I want to do is separate one from mother.

Oh that reminds me my uncle said about 3 times this week there has been a puppy out of the doghouse. He cant see that great so I dont know if its the same one. He always puts it back though. Since they havnt opened their eyes yet could it have fell out because it didnt want to stop nursing and was hung on her and fell when she left or do you thing she took it there? It's always been by the front of the sides.

Oh that reminds me my uncle said about 3 times this week there has been a puppy out of the doghouse. He cant see that great so I dont know if its the same one. He always puts it back though. Since they havnt opened their eyes yet could it have fell out because it didnt want to stop nursing and was hung on her and fell when she left or do you thing she took it there? It's always been by the front of the sides.

Click to expand...

It likely did fall out. If you put a board in front of the lower part of the door opening that will help keep them in. (Don't block the doorway and make sure mom can still get through, but just across the bottom so the pups can't fall out.) If they make noise I would expect mom to go out and get them. Putting the puppy back is the right thing to do.

George

Ok I'll try that. Thanks. It's weird though she doesnt go and get it and it crys so loud it wakes him and he goes and gets it. Either it's too cold for her to want to get it or she doesnt want to....hmmm...

It's weird though she doesnt go and get it and it crys so loud it wakes him and he goes and gets it. Either it's too cold for her to want to get it or she doesnt want to....hmmm...

Click to expand...

Not quite sure what's going on with her, but keep putting the pups back for her. Is mom a young dog? Is this her first litter?

George

He said he knows of her having one before he took her. With her not fixed probably more. I dont know her exact age, but she's definately plenty old enough. Several years old probably.

Does sound like she's struggling a bit. Maybe from the cold, maybe from lack of nutrition before you came along. Keep feeding her and putting the pups back when necessary. Dogs really do appreciate attention, so whenever you can visit with her she'll be happier. I know I keep saying it, but you really are doing a good thing here. Next time you hold one of the pups remember, this one is alive because of you.

George