poops during the transition to raw - what to expect

Thank you, @LDG. We did, indeed, jump to 2.5 ounces last night and all is well. Tim's stool was a little larger than normal, probably from the dry. And he had a tiny amount of unformed stool. But he's still on micro-doses of Miralax until the loud work on our house is done. Today should be the last day of loud noise, so his last dose was this morning.

All in all, Tim's doing great. After checking out the house last night to make sure all was safe, he was energetic and playful. More so than we've seen since his lip and chin swelled. This morning he was also active and playful, and there is a noticeable decrease in his lip and chin swelling. In any event, we are seeing our regular vet following the visit with the cardiologist on Monday. It could be that switching Tim to raw will resolve his lingering tummy issue and this will go away, if they are related. Or hopefully his heart will be in good enough shape for a dental. We'll see.

Thanks again!

Awesome, I love reading threads about happy, playful kitties!

Malibu did that to me one time too, got into a bag of dry food that I have for the ferals when I TNR. I give the TNR cats half canned and half dry when they are recovering from surgery. I left the bag on the counter for literally one minute while I went outside to feed a recovering feral. I figured it was safe up there since the bag was CLOSED. Nope! Malibu tore open the bag and him and Kali inhaled as much as possible in that 60 seconds. We weren't feeding raw when this happened, they were on canned food and hadn't has dry in over a year. They were in heaven and I was so mad at them!   

I don't think they had any issues with it but it looks like Tim is fine so no worries 

Thank you, @Abby2932, for the details further up this thread about how much less your cats are eating. I have kept this in mind as I plan Tim's meals. Despite dropping Tim's total calories as I increased the percentage of raw in his diet, he is exactly the same weight as he was two weeks ago: 15.6 pounds (at least he didn't gain). We'd like to get him around 14 - 14.5, and assess his body condition. He is a stocky cat with a large frame, so he will never be light. But he's got a little extra around his belly that we would like him to lose. So I am going to stop him at 2.5 ounces of Rad Cat turkey for his main evening meal and complete the taper of the supplemental canned turkey I was feeding. Right now it's only about 0.2 ounce, so it should be fairly painless. Tim is not complaining too much about less volume of food, so I think he is adapting nicely. I'll continue with the bit of cooked shredded turkey for now, with added bone broth to moisten. And I'll continue with the small amount of canned food that both cats have before bed.

This means, because Tim has been at 2.5 ounces of Rad Cat turkey for two days now, I can start bumping his morning meal of raw rabbit. He's been consistently getting 0.5 ounce of Primal Pronto mixed in with his canned rabbit, so tomorrow morning I will begin gradually increasing that, using the same method: Bump, if no vomit or diarrhea, bump again 24 hours later. Portions of his stool last night were a little soft, but we are done with the Miralax now because he's doing well and I want to see how he does without any assistance. Further, the loud outside work is pretty much done so hopefully he won't feel as stressed. I am continuing the "hairball blend" each day, however, and I am actually giving it to both cats twice per day during this home improvement project.

I am mindful that Tim has been less active the past two weeks, and this might be part of the reason for his failure to lose any weight despite reduction in calories. He is becoming more active now, more like his usual self. So I'll have to watch him closely to make sure he's getting enough.

Sounds like he's doing great!

Not sure if you have mentioned this or not but are you going to eventually get Abby on the raw bandwagon? I know she doesn't have any issues or anything, just curious!!

At this time, Abby has no interest in raw. None whatsoever.

I have offered Abby Rad Cat turkey a few times. The first time, she stuck her front paw in the plate, walked a few steps, then licked her paw. I picked her up and put her back in front of the plate, which she promptly walked away from. For subsequent offerings, she just walked away. Tim was happy to eat what she would not.

I've tried adding Primal Pronto raw rabbit nuggets to her canned rabbit, the same as I do with Tim. She won't eat if there are too many nuggets mixed in. Abby is quite healthy and has no issues, so my husband and I have agreed we won't force raw, though I am thinking about working on her breakfast, a single nugget at a time. It would be much easier on us if both cats ate the same food. At least they are on the same protein per meal now.

Cats!

 How's Tim doing with the morning raw rabbit increase?

Thanks for asking! Tim's doing very well. We're going more slowly, only 0.1 ounce every 24 hours because he is a little less enthusiastic about the raw rabbit. But he ate 0.8 ounce this morning and will eat 0.9 ounce tomorrow, provided all goes well. There has been no vomit, no diarrhea. Sometimes a portion of his stool is a little soft, but we're not overly concerned about that.

Our really exciting news today is we just returned home from our appointment with the veterinary cardiologist, followed by an appointment with the holistic veterinarian. Tim is fine; he does not have HCM!!! When we explained the circumstances under which he was diagnosed with mild HCM in June 2013, the cardiologist understood why the diagnosis was made. But Tim had a full work-up and everything looks great; there is no sign of what prompted the original diagnosis. We are so relieved!!!

Tim's chin and lower lip are still a little swollen, though it's definitely improved. The holistic vet looked all around his mouth again and cannot see anything, so we are being referred to a veterinary dentist, who can do a full exam, x-rays, and a very needed cleaning. We'll be taking both cats, as Abby could also use a teeth cleaning (then we will start practicing better cat mouth care). So if Tim's swelling has anything to do with his mouth, we'll resolve that. We'll be doing that shortly after Labor Day, to give Tim a break from vet visits. Unless the swelling starts to get worse, then we'll see this veterinary dentist sooner.

I am a very relieved cat-mom.

AbbyNTim said:

 
Thanks for asking! Tim's doing very well. We're going more slowly, only 0.1 ounce every 24 hours because he is a little less enthusiastic about the raw rabbit. But he ate 0.8 ounce this morning and will eat 0.9 ounce tomorrow, provided all goes well. There has been no vomit, no diarrhea. Sometimes a portion of his stool is a little soft, but we're not overly concerned about that.

Our really exciting news today is we just returned home from our appointment with the veterinary cardiologist, followed by an appointment with the holistic veterinarian. Tim is fine; he does not have HCM!!! When we explained the circumstances under which he was diagnosed with mild HCM in June 2013, the cardiologist understood why the diagnosis was made. But Tim had a full work-up and everything looks great; there is no sign of what prompted the original diagnosis. We are so relieved!!!

Tim's chin and lower lip are still a little swollen, though it's definitely improved. The holistic vet looked all around his mouth again and cannot see anything, so we are being referred to a veterinary dentist, who can do a full exam, x-rays, and a very needed cleaning. We'll be taking both cats, as Abby could also use a teeth cleaning (then we will start practicing better cat mouth care). So if Tim's swelling has anything to do with his mouth, we'll resolve that. We'll be doing that shortly after Labor Day, to give Tim a break from vet visits. Unless the swelling starts to get worse, then we'll see this veterinary dentist sooner.

I am a very relieved cat-mom.

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Great news all around! I'm thrilled that he's doing well with the raw transition so far and even more thrilled that he doesn't have HCM.   What a relief!

Good news!

Thank you! Yes, we are soooo relieved Tim does not have HCM!!

Tim had a couple of 48-hour intervals between poops this past week. He was at about 36 hours at our vet appointment on Monday. She palpated him and said everything felt soft and normal, so there is no indication his stool is sitting there too long and getting hard. We think there is just less as he eats more raw. Tim's second 48-hour stretch ended on Friday morning, with what looked like his first "almost raw" poop. WARNING: DETAILED DESCRIPTION. It was smaller in length than normal, especially for a 48-hour poop, and much narrower in width. Most pieces were "marbled" and all had a dark crust with lighter inside that looked mostly like hair. It was firm and crumbly but not hard, so quite different from others I've seen from him. It barely had any smell. END DETAILED DESCRIPTION.

Regarding Tim's raw transition progress, he is at 100% raw for dinner. Currently, he is eating 2.5 ounces Rad Cat turkey. He dropped a couple of ounces in weight, so I am holding here for now, but continue to track his calories and monitor his weight. As the percentage of raw goes up, total calories go down.

For breakfast, Tim is eating about 35% raw rabbit mixed with canned rabbit. He still will not eat raw rabbit on its own, I've tried, so my short-term goal for breakfast is 50/50 raw/canned. My plan is to hold there while I get Abby on partial raw rabbit for breakfast. I am feeding both Primal Pronto Rabbit Formula and Stella & Chewy's Absolutely Rabbit Frozen Dinner Morsels. Tim won't eat either if offered alone, but he gobbles both if mixed with canned rabbit, so I think 50/50 is a very achievable goal.

We are expanding out to other canned rabbit brands, as you know I had expressed some concern about Nature's Variety Instinct formula change. We are alternating between increasing raw rabbit and increasing other canned rabbit brands, each 0.1 ounce at a time and only one per day. So far, Tim has sampled and seems to tolerate Hound & Gatos rabbit, which of course cannot be found right now, and ZiwiPeak rabbit/lamb, which is higher fat and concerns me a bit with him.

Tim's lower lip and chin swelling reduced significantly. It may be gone; I'm not sure. I am not noticing the head shaking and mouthfuls of drool. He is more energetic and wants to play much more. In any event, we are going to get his mouth checked and a good cleaning to make sure nothing weird is happening that is not visible.

Once Tim has settled into a good raw routine, either 100% or 75%, and I know what is behind the lip and chin swelling and we've addressed it, then we are going to expand to other proteins. I believe chicken may be a problem with him, he was so sick on every canned chicken brand I fed him, but I want to try raw chicken to see how he does; we will try Rad Cat when the time comes.

That sounds like normal raw poop. 

I can't remember if I ever asked before, but have you thought about making your own raw?  Unfortunately most of the commercial raw have other ingredients in them, making it hard to determine if the cat is having a problem with chicken or spinach for example. 

AbbyNTim said:

We are expanding out to other canned rabbit brands, as you know I had expressed some concern about Nature's Variety Instinct formula change. We are alternating between increasing raw rabbit and increasing other canned rabbit brands, each 0.1 ounce at a time and only one per day. So far, Tim has sampled and seems to tolerate Hound & Gatos rabbit, which of course cannot be found right now, and ZiwiPeak rabbit/lamb, which is higher fat and concerns me a bit with him.

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Good luck finding another commercial canned rabbit food. Most are mixed with other proteins and/or have guar gum (a no-no for Sebastian). I had considered Nature's Logic Rabbit Recipe. While it's considered somewhat of a "whole food" food, there's just too many things in there that could bother him. "I and Love and You" makes a rabbit pate, but we've never tried it because it has guar gum in it: http://www.iandloveandyou.com/cat/canned/whascally-wabbit/. All three of mine liked the Addiction Black Forest Rabbit & Blueberries to some extent when they tried it awhile back. We ended up sticking with the Royal Canin Selected Protein PR (pea and rabbit) canned food during his rabbit rotation. He does have larger stools on this food, however.

Glad the transition continues to go well.

GoHolistic said:

 
Good luck finding another commercial canned rabbit food. Most are mixed with other proteins and/or have guar gum (a no-no for Sebastian). I had considered Nature's Logic Rabbit Recipe. While it's considered somewhat of a "whole food" food, there's just too many things in there that could bother him. "I and Love and You" makes a rabbit pate, but we've never tried it because it has guar gum in it: http://www.iandloveandyou.com/cat/canned/whascally-wabbit/. All three of mine liked the Addiction Black Forest Rabbit & Blueberries to some extent when they tried it awhile back. We ended up sticking with the Royal Canin Selected Protein PR (pea and rabbit) canned food during his rabbit rotation. He does have larger stools on this food, however.

Glad the transition continues to go well.

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Why do the food companies do this?  Why do they add ingredients so the cat will pass poop almost the same size as mine?

I had been having trouble with this site and the video ads. They were really slowing down my computer at home and freezing up my computer at work. This made it very difficult to read posts and nearly impossible to reply. I finally figured out how to change a setting on my browser, so we’ll see if it helps.

Tim had his animal dentist appointment yesterday. His mouth is perfect! We met with the dentist first for a consult. His very thorough physical exam revealed nothing and he recommended cleaning and x-rays only, while being prepared to do extractions, if necessary. The x-rays revealed nothing, either: His teeth are perfect with no holes or problems, his gums are healthy, his bones are perfect, there are no problems on his palate or down his throat, he has no resorptive lesions.

So that is great news and we are very happy Tim’s mouth is in such great shape. But it leaves the mystery of his chin inflammation, which is still mildly present (see photo, taken yesterday at the dentist). But a lightbulb went off in my head this morning as I washed the cat dishes. We wash them by hand after each meal and use a nice, holistic dish soap that contains essential oils. We purchased the same brand, but a different fragrance, and I had a major sneezing fit right after washing dishes this morning. Then I wondered if it’s the dish soap with essential oils causing his chin to swell? The swelling is localized and nowhere else, and his chin rubs his plate and bowl when he eats. Will be purchasing dish soap without fragrance or any other extraneous ingredients to see what happens.


Because we had to fast Tim for his dentist appointment, we thought it would be mean to feed Abby. And since we were fasting her, too, we made an appointment with our vet to have her teeth cleaned. Her mouth also looks good, no extractions or visible problems, so I’m happy. Will start brushing their teeth to keep their mouths in good shape.

Tim’s transition to raw is at a bit of a standstill right now. He is 100% raw for dinner and seems to really enjoy his Rad Cat turkey. But he is resisting raw rabbit right now and I’m having some trouble getting him to eat 50% raw rabbit and 50% canned rabbit, which is his very favorite. So we will hold here for now, and I hope I don’t have to decrease raw and increase canned rabbit, but will do so if necessary.

Regarding his poops, the topic of this thread, I’m fairly comfortable. He almost always skips a day now, though sometimes he goes two days in a row. When he skips, timing seems to be from 36-48 hours; he’s not yet gone longer than 48 hours. The poops are getting smaller and seem to consist of half “canned poops” and half “raw poops”. I am beginning to feel a lot more “relaxed” about this than I thought I would, considering Tim had two terrible constipation/obstipation episodes, he was on daily cisapride for nine months, and it took us four months to wean him off cisapride. I do start to get a little edgy when we hit the 40-hour mark without a poop, but so far Tim has come through.

@peaches08, we have thought about and discussed making our own raw. I'm not mentally ready for that yet. I think it's partly because I want to give commercial raw more time. I do plan to eventually try other commercial proteins. Right now, I am having a hard enough time preparing food for the humans in the house, so think it's best to stay with commercial prepared raw cat food.

@GoHolistic, we decided to keep it simple for Tim and we're sticking with just the NVI canned rabbit for blending with his raw rabbit. Abby, on the other hand, is getting alternating canned rabbit and so far loves both ZiwiPeak (very expensive) and H&G. I am a little worried about all the gums in H&G, however, as Abby seems to get a little off-track with her BMs when she's eating that food rotation. I want to try one more can, however, before I decide. We have a can of Nature's Logic, which I may try. The Addiction rabbit looks interesting, though I have not had any luck getting them to eat any food canned by Evangers. I have never heard of I and Love and You, so will have to look for that - thank you! I don't want to get too crazy for Abby, so am hoping to settle on two brands in addition to NVI rabbit.

Curious how some foods do that - cause larger stools. Interestingly, my cats' stool were much larger on Wellness grain-free canned than they are on NVI canned, even though NVI canned is supposedly higher fiber. In fact, on NVI canned, Abby's stools look almost like raw-fed stools. With Tim, I initially became alarmed and thought stuff was stuck. I was very happy to have two cats and see the same thing happen in both. I can only guess that Wellness has more "junk" that passes through. Don't these cat food manufacturers think about this? Why is a larger stool better????

Wild Calling has a canned rabbit: http://wildcalling.com/products/rabbit-burrow/     I've seen this brand at specialty pet stores.

Nature's Variety has canned rabbit in both the Instinct line and the Pride by Instinct line.

Innova EVO  used to have a canned rabbit but it looks like it is no longer offered.

Evangers has a canned rabbit but it is NOT a complete diet.

Wysong ha a canned rabbit in the Au Jus line. This is also NOT a complete diet - which is fine if you plan on only mixing a little into raw food .

Have you tried mixing some freeze dried raw into the raw food? This worked to get my rescue cat transitioned from canned to raw. The freeze dried raw had more of a stinky smell than the raw.

Double post

LTS3 said:

 
Wild Calling has a canned rabbit: http://wildcalling.com/products/rabbit-burrow/     I've seen this brand at specialty pet stores.

Nature's Variety has canned rabbit in both the Instinct line and the Pride by Instinct line.

Innova EVO  used to have a canned rabbit but it looks like it is no longer offered.

Evangers has a canned rabbit but it is NOT a complete diet.

Wysong ha a canned rabbit in the Au Jus line. This is also NOT a complete diet - which is fine if you plan on only mixing a little into raw food .

Have you tried mixing some freeze dried raw into the raw food? This worked to get my rescue cat transitioned from canned to raw. The freeze dried raw had more of a stinky smell than the raw.

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Tried Wild Calling; neither cat has cared for any Wild Calling flavor yet.

They are currently eating Nature's Variety Instinct (NVI) and have been for some time. I do not want to rely on a single brand, however. At this point, I don't plan to try Pride because it contains a lot of gums; I am not sure how Tim will do with those gums and right now, I think they might not agree with Abby, either, given her box habits when she's on her H&G rotation.

EVO is not a brand I will feed due to inclusion of carrageenan and very high fat to protein ratio.

I am trying to stay away from incomplete foods. Both cats are a tad overweight, so I'm really watching calories and want every calorie to count, nutrition-wise.

I may try some freeze-dried raw as a topper again. The last time I tried, it gave Tim the runs. However, he was still on cisapride at that time. He might tolerate it now. The smell might be part of it, as NVI canned rabbit has a very distinct smell that the two raw brands I am trying (Primal Pronto and Stella and Chewy Absolutely Rabbit) don't have.

Thanks!

Well, in time you can try something like raw or cooked meat, minced, and use the same vitamin/mineral mix many of us do with a calcium source like eggshells to see if it helps any.  It's really not that hard, and maybe the family can help.  For now, I still think it sounds like he's doing great!  Much better than before!

@peaches08, yes, so much better than before! I think you replied to my very first post when I joined this site in February and Tim was so sick. At that time, we thought he had mild HCM and mild asthma. He'd had struvite crystals in his urine. He'd had two very serious constipation/obstipation episodes and our vet basically told us he was one small step away from megacolon, and later told us he would have to be on cisapride for life (despite no issues after episode #2). At the same time, he had frequent diarrhea. He hacked up hairballs multiple times a week, despite frequent brushing and almost daily laxatone. He vomited regularly, and when that started happening after every meal, I thought I needed to look long and hard at his diet as I wondered if all these things were a result of the same inflammatory trigger.

So, yes, much, much better. In fact, all that remains to deal with is the chin mystery. And occasional tummy upset, but I think we can easily manage that with his diet and we are hoping the raw will, in fact, improve that. So I am very, very, very happy with his status right now. If we do decide to dip into homemade food, I will definitely get help from others.

Because of Tim's two terrible episodes, I will probably always monitor his litter box habits more than I've ever monitored any of our other cats' (and more than I really want to, frankly). Partly because of this, his primary raw is Rad Cat, which uses ground egg shell for calcium instead of bone. (And I know this is a good argument for home-made, so I can control the amount and source of calcium, along with the ratio to other minerals). We are also using Primal Pronto feline rabbit formula, which is approximately 10% bone, and Stella & Chewy Absolutely rabbit formula for felines, which does not state the bone percentage on the package or website.

Yesterday I was at the independent pet supply retailer where I buy most food, and reps from both Stella & Chewy and Blue Buffalo were there. I asked the S&C rep about the bone percentage of their frozen feline foods and she had no idea! When I mentioned I would just call customer service, the BB rep stepped in and said I should ask about "ash" content. Does this seem correct? Ash content for raw food? I always thought ash was the bones, connective tissue, and such that remained after the food was cooked. Maybe it's this stuff after processing in general? Does anyone know if ash has the same effect on poop as bone? And with a cat that *may* be prone to constipation (I am not convinced, as we think his two episodes were stress-induced and made worse by a dehydrating diet of kibble), should I pay attention to ash as well as bone percent?

I should add, some things have not changed with Tim. He is still a food-hog and probably always will be. I am forever having to keep him from pushing Abby away from her bowl. This morning, he got up on the counter and ate up all the food I had prepared for both him and Abby. I was worried, because he ate so much so quickly, he would get sick. But he kept it down, so I know his stomach is better. I just wish I could get him to stop being obsessed with food. Tim, Tim, Tim....