I did it!! Sub-q'ed my kitty

I know, I'm really overwhelmed with the stress and heartbreak of watching her decline, and I'm trying to keep her "good" days as "good" days and not ruin the little security she feels at home - but I also don't want to stress her with going to the vets. Even though it will cost a fortune, I'm going to try my hardest and have the euthanasia done at home, barring some disarster that requires immediate euthanasia and the home guy can't get there in time.

I think if she were all around healthier, more robust and this was strictly about her minor kidney deficiency, and she were her "old" firecracker self, I'd have a much different attitude. I see muscle wasting, feeling bones where I shouldn't...  Seems like most every time I approach her she gotta be thinking "oh what's she going to do to me now?" and I just want her to be happy when I approach just to pet her and love her. I see the worry on her face whenever I approach, and again - if she weren't dying, this would be a whole different ballgame.

The stomach cancer diagnosis I was in denial about was strictly from bloodwork numbers, so I was trying to convince myself they could be mistaken. But I don't think they are, I guess I just started accepting it and it's hitting me hard. I can see her fading, yet still fighting and it is so sad.

I wish I had the gumption to try to tackle this six months ago, or last year when she spiked. She is becoming so fragile now, psychologically for me - it's such a bad time, I want to be a comfort to her. I want to help of course, but if I had to guess I think we are only looking at another couple of weeks left maybe. Unless she has one of her famous bouncebacks, she's a fighter - but I really think she gave up when her brother died. She's a different cat now.

I agree I have to have the supplies at home, and once I accept the sutuation maybe I'll be stronger. I could pull this off in an emergency if I had to. Right now I'm just a crying mess, and her brothers recent death is hitting me too. It's complicated. I'll let you all know what happens, but right now I want to go home and pet her and hopefully she will purr and respond and not move away and flinch.

It's amazing how quickly everything can change.

Many hugs to you.  Do the best you can she knows you have never hurt her and that she is loved.  It is not an easy road to go down and there are no mistakes as long as every choice is made out of love and with her quality of life as you know it then and there in mind. 

Hi;

Can you ask the vet if there is someone at his office that would be willing to stop by your place and do the fluids for you? I used to do that all the time for clients when I was working at the specialty hospital. It was no big deal to me and I would just stop by on my way to or home from work and give the fluids. Might be something to think about.

You know, you have to let some things in your head go. I am talking about the beating yourself up  over not being successful in giving the fluids.

I have an attorney friend of mine that I met through work. She had surgery done on her cats leg. I brought the cat home from the hospital for her to make sure she was set up right for the cat etc. She was doing well for about a week and then one night when I was on my way to work she called me hysterical. She was crying and very upset. Now, mind you this is a very strong woman. She is single successful and, well, lets put it this way, she is nobody's fool about anything. Here she was crying over the fact that she didn't know what to do with the cat, she wasn't sure of anything and was worried sick, not sleeping etc. I told her to meet me half way and I took the cat from her. As I did she told me she felt like such a failure.

I told her that I have had over 30 years experience working in vet hospitals. I have done recovery on literally thousands of cats. (dogs too) I said that if someone dropped me into a court room all of a sudden and said I had to litigate someone, well, I wouldn't have the first idea of how to go about that. Heck I wouldn't even know what to wear. Let alone actually do anything about it. So in all fairness how can anyone expect her to suddenly be a feline recovery nurse? Even If I had someone to talk me through it in the courtroom I still would not win the case and it would be declared a mistrial immediately due to my not knowing the first thing about it. I think it helped her to understand.

I hope it helps you to understand a little bit. As a cat owner you are expected to do so much and to know so much without any training.

Find someone from the vets office to help you if you can. Otherwise take your cat in for the fluids. You are doing everything you can. Take some time for yourself as well. You have to be on top of your game here and you can't be if you are worn out. So get some rest and go shopping or do something not cat related for a day. Then start fresh but for now I would skip doing the fluids yourself. Just not worth it.

zoneout said:

 
No, the TW and UTW needles have larger inside diameters because the wall is thinner which obviously allows faster flow rates given equal outside diameters.   In other words - the thicker the wall - the higher the impedance to flow.

I haven`t looked but I am guessing the TW and UTW are quite a bit more expensive due to a tighter manufacturing process and perhaps stronger alloys being used.

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i buy the ultra thin wall terumo 20G 1" needles in the 100 count boxes. in the boxes there are strips with something like 6-8 needles, sealed individually and there are perforations so one sealed needle can be disattached. the last time i ordered needles they cost $6.90 per 100 count box. i buy 4 boxes at a time along with the "giving sets", and that gets my order total high enough that i get free shipping on them. i also buy my fluids online by the cases, usually two cases at a time (lasts me about a year-ish, and i store them carefully to keep them in the ideal temperature range), and don't pay much for shipping them to my house. i'm then all set for about a year on sub-q supplies for my snick. i'll be placing another order in september, because i'll need more starting sometime during next winter and i don't like to risk the fluids becoming frozen during shipping (in the cold weather months).

i'm not sure how my costs compare to your costs, but i know i'm saving a bundle from what i used to pay buying these supplies from my vet's.

Aw Quiet, thank you for helping me gain some perspective. I tend to get wrapped up over things in my head and blow them way out of proportion. You are right, I am doing everything I can for a terminal kitty. I think at this point the best thing I can do is keep my head straight and maintain some semblance of self-control to keep her as calm as possible.

I think because she got so sick right after the other cat died, I had to throw myself into trying to help her, and now that I've (almost) accepted that she is terminal as well - his death has finally become real, and I'm feeling the pain from that all of a sudden, since I dove head first in trying to save the remaining cat and never got to mourn him. I guess I was having unrealistic expectations of myself.

Thanks for talking me down, as they say. You're right, the best thing I can do for her is become the best self that I can, regardless of my veterinary knowledge. She can feel my stress, and that can't be helping her right now. Maybe some day I will try again, but for the immediate moment, its too much pressure on both of us.

Regarding the at home coaching, the vet's office has a strict policy of nothing for the clients at home. I'm a little insulted that they don't bend for home euthanasia, but... that's their policy. I found someone else locally for that.

Thank you again, i do feel much better. Very sage advice and I needed some perspective, you just gave me that, thank you again.

The posters are right. If it stresses you and your kitty less, and you can afford it, then go to the vet for sub-q. If you decide at a future date to try sub-q again, I'm here to help.

Enjoy your time with her.

cocheezie said:

The posters are right. If it stresses you and your kitty less, and you can afford it, then go to the vet for sub-q. If you decide at a future date to try sub-q again, I'm here to help.

Enjoy your time with her.

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Right now I'm going to relax about it. I may approach this again in a few weeks, depending on her condition by then. They charge maybe 8/pop if I bring my own supplies (which I have), and this won't be for much longer, I fear. But she ate a whole tray of Nature's Recipe tonight, spoon fed - but still *happy dance*. Seeing her eat makes my heart so happy. Especially when she is eating with gusto. :kitty2::Kitty Food:

Wasabipea said:

Right now I'm going to relax about it. I may approach this again in a few weeks, depending on her condition by then. They charge maybe 8/pop if I bring my own supplies (which I have), and this won't be for much longer, I fear. But she ate a whole tray of Nature's Recipe tonight, spoon fed - but still *happy dance*. Seeing her eat makes my heart so happy. Especially when she is eating with gusto.

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Good to hear she's eating well.  I had posted in your other thread that it was a good idea to ask your neighbor to help with the subq administration but I agree with the other posters here--if it's causing so much stress for you and Roni, it's not worth it.  As you've said, she's used to the car ride and handles the subq administration well when she's at the vet so maybe for the time being, that's the way to go.  Better to enjoy whatever time you have with her at home and let the vets handle the rest.  

I was wondering if you have anything other than blood numbers to indicate she has cancer? Have you actually done x-rays to see if the cancer can be seen? I would not write her off until I knew for sure it was cancer because there are a lot of things that can throw off blood numbers and it doesn't have to be cancer. Cats bond to people and each other and when the lose someone it can hit them very hard and sometimes the other will pass away shortly after or have health issues. You can get them past this if you help them fight and keep them as healthy as you can.

We are in similar situations in many respects. I used to have two cats before, she was the runt of the litter and he was the pick of the litter. The day after she turned 17 she was no longer able to hold down food but until this point she seemed totally normal and showed no signs of problems. Because this issue went on for more than a day I took her to the vet to ensure there were no problems and the x-rays showed she was littered with cancer and she was fading fast so I had to put her down. At this same time her brother, who like your male cat, was the best cat in the world and could do no wrong, started to get sick from renal failure and IBD. The first 6 months after she passed on were a nightmare and his health was going downhill and neither myself or the vet really knew how time he had left.

Fast forward two years and he just saw his 19th birthday in May and he is still going. He has stabilized a lot and has mostly good days but there are enough bad days in there to keep me wondering. Every day I rush home from work to check and see if he is still alive and then I search around to see if he has thrown up anywhere. Because he is old he is also a really deep sleeper so I also check him to make sure he is still breathing and alive whereas before he would of woken up from me approaching him. Given his age and his multitude of issues he is actually doing well but I can tell you it has been an emotional roller coaster.

I continually struggle whether I am doing the right thing for him by keeping him going but I know if I stopped giving him his treatments he would definitely suffer. He is okay with the the sub-q's even though there have been enough botched ones because it is now part of his life. He knows each day he will get a sub-q and he will come and get it when he is ready. It is almost like he is working himself up for it and then says okay I am ready now so do it. I also have to give him drugs multiple times a day and this he does not like at all. He looks at me suspiciously a lot of the time and if I make the wrong move he is gone and will find somewhere to hide. When he is having a bad day he will also go and hide and a lot of the time he does not want any attention when he is in this state. It is the worst when he is groaning and moaning and there is nothing I can do for him and because he is hiding I can't even give him extra pain meds to help him through it. I will visit him every 30 - 60 minutes when he is like this and gently pet is head and sometimes he will simply try to get out of my reach to be alone.

I don't let any of that bother me and try to keep the stress to a minimum because I know what I am doing makes him feel better. Once he has gotten all of his drugs he is more social and he knows what he gets and knows when something is still coming. Getting these drugs also stresses him out and I can hear his stomach start making noises when he is waiting which I try to minimize. But I try for him and do the best that I can. I am no nurse maid but I learn and I do it for him and his health. I'm not really all that good at it for the most part but we get by and it has been over two years since it started and he has not degraded that much.

I really thought he was a goner when it all started to go downhill and then it got to the point where he didn't want to eat but he snapped out of it. I think to this day he still misses his sister but because of his health I can't get another buddy for him. My tenant had a cat that was given to him and I did introduce them and it went okay but it turned out the other cat was littered with cancer as well and had to be put down so this didn't really work out.

All things considered you are doing really well with your cat and the fact that you can give a sub-q at the vets office shows you can do it. Keep practising at the vet and when you feel comfortable with it then try it at home because you can do it. Whether you believe it or not you are doing an amazing thing for your cat and even if she doesn't show it all of the time she does appreciate it. A sub-q will also make her feel much better after and once you can do this at home she will figure this out quickly enough. I think this is why my guy doesn't fight it because he does feel better afterwards and a lot of the time he purrs right through the sub-q. It is also routine to him which cats like so he knows every evening he will be getting a sub-q and he is okay with it as long as it is on his time schedule.

Two things that really helped my guy would be sub-q's and B12 injections. Because of his age and health his B12 levels really dropped and this can make him feel really crappy so if you have not had this tested you should. My guy has a problem maintaining B12 and currently he is getting 0.25cc weekly until the next blood test to see how things stand.

I wish you and your cat the best and hopefully things turn about and get better. Unless you know for sure I would not think anything is terminal unless you see proof. I though my guy was goner multiple times but he bounces back and is still kicking.

Wow, You Guy (you're not just That Guy - lol), we really are in similar situations and you must get exactly what I'm going through. Two cats that spent the better part of two decades together, suddenly torn apart with almost no warning. My departed boy was diagnosed at an emergency clinic, he had a bunch of vague symptoms that were getting worse and I couldn't wait until his regular appt the next day. From diagnosis to putting him down was less than 48 hrs.

Immediately, the girl left behind (granted, she hasn't been problem free the past few years, but was holding her own very well) health wise and mentally spiraled out of control. Kidneys spiked, white cell count flew up, her blood numbers were all over the board.

In answer to your question... I honestly can't recall if she had an X-ray, there were so many visits and tests... I'll check her chart next time I'm there. If I recall correctly, I mentioned doing an X-ray to my vet, and I think she talked me out of it. I honestly think she wants me to put Roni down and be done with it, and I don't know why she would have that attitude with her. Anyway, if X-ray were done - they were inconclusive. I know the vet cant feel any masses with a tactile exam of her belly region. The diagnosis was tentative, she was confident it was correct, by white cell counts and the numbers associated with certain breakdowns of the white cells (i can't recall the names of the specific WC values, I'm not experienced with that).

For a while I was in denial since that was the only tool used to determine the stomach cancer call. I'm not doing an ultrasound, and I'm certainly not cutting her open for a visual at her age and present condition. But the past few days / week her symptoms are getting worse, so I decided to accept the likelihood and steel myself for the end. Her main symptom was just looking miserable (she radiates her expressions) and not being able to find anything that she would eat - not even the tried and true backup emergency plans were working, plus the diarrhea.

BUT, i have since found a food that she loves and actually meows for at her dish (i used to have to assist-feed her while she would stay in her bed).

It's strange, cats are vastly underrated when it comes to picking up on our emotions. I was horribly depressed and upset the last week or so, and now that I have gotten a handle on some of my stress and grief, she is acting much better again. On the way to the vets this morning, we had our little chat again in he car (i talk, she meows, I ask her a question and she meows, etc). It's our bonding time, that hasn't happened lately.

So there is no definite cancer diagnosis, I'm still not convinced that this is not grief still manifesting itself physically. She is still depressed and terribly lonely. I'm half tempted to try again with a companion - a mellow young kitten - someone suggested it might bring out a maternal instinct, but with her health... I just don't know. The other day we were outside and the neighbor cat came into our yard and started hissing at Roni, she just looked at her-didn't hiss back or show any aggression. If she were annoyed, she would have left. She looked almost content to see another cat.

Our situations really are very similar. But I can tell you one thing... seeing a formerly anorexic cat woof down food with gusto does a woman's heart wonders

I'm glad you got it! It took me many pokes to get the needle in & I was so creeped out by it I put the fluid in really slow. I know this does make a difference but I came to the conclusion that in my situation, I was only prolonging the inevitable. My cat had a tumor, kidney failure, she was blind & could barely get around. I was also syringe feeding her 5 - 6 times a day plus putting medicine in her little body, I just couldn't let her go. 

When I visited Tanya's CKD website, I learned SO much. I'm thankful for people who have gone through it before to let others know what to do & what to expect. Good luck to you & your baby.

Please wait on getting another cat or kitten. Even a mellow kitten will be a change and right now I don't think that would be in her best interest. I could be wrong, but the addition of a cat or kitten to an established healthy cat can be stressful enough, but with her not feeling up to par, I think it would only make things much worse.

I think it depends to a great extent on Roni whether another young cat around would be beneficial. It could be really therapeutic, or a disaster. Personality would be very important obviously. Our young tuxedo followed Max home one day, and we made the decision after different attempts to find the owner, to keep him. Amazingly, for two males, they took to each other from day one, and seeing Max become a 'mom' overnight, was the biggest surprise of all. They enjoy mutual grooming and playing every day.

Glad to read that Roni enjoyed a nice meal  

oneandahalfcats said:

I think it depends to a great extent on Roni whether another young cat around would be beneficial. It could be really therapeutic, or a disaster. Personality would be very important obviously. Our young tuxedo followed Max home one day, and we made the decision after different attempts to find the owner, to keep him. Amazingly, for two males, they took to each other from day one, and seeing Max become a 'mom' overnight, was the biggest surprise of all. They enjoy mutual grooming and playing every day.

Glad to read that Roni enjoyed a nice meal :bigthumb:  

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She ate 7 tins/cans of food in the last two days! Weighed her yesterday at the vet's and she is holding steady at 7.6 lbs! (I credit the Nutrical for the days she wasn't eating).

I think bringing in another cat in her condition now is probably not the best idea, but after seeing her totally submissive reaction from being challenged by the neighbor cat the other day, it made me rethink it. She's always been Alpha Cat, back in the day if that other cat had hissed at her - it would have turned ugly fast. She didn't even hiss back or leave, just looked at that fat thing hissing away like she belonged there!

She seemed neutral/curious - not threatened. I just want to give her a reason to live.

Wasabipea said:

She ate 7 tins/cans of food in the last two days! Weighed her yesterday at the vet's and she is holding steady at 7.6 lbs! (I credit the Nutrical for the days she wasn't eating).

I think bringing in another cat in her condition now is probably not the best idea, but after seeing her totally submissive reaction from being challenged by the neighbor cat the other day, it made me rethink it. She's always been Alpha Cat, back in the day if that other cat had hissed at her - it would have turned ugly fast. She didn't even hiss back or leave, just looked at that fat thing hissing away like she belonged there!

She seemed neutral/curious - not threatened. I just want to give her a reason to live.

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Yes, and that is a totally valid wish. In thinking more on this, there are other considerations such as your capacity in caring for Roni and bringing another young cat into the home. Kittens come with special needs unlike older cats. If it could happen as a temporary visit, like they do now in bringing cats and dogs into senior homes, I think this could be awesome if well received. That said, I thought you were contemplating adopting a 7 year old at some point?

Quiet said:

Please wait on getting another cat or kitten. Even a mellow kitten will be a change and right now I don't think that would be in her best interest. I could be wrong, but the addition of a cat or kitten to an established healthy cat can be stressful enough, but with her not feeling up to par, I think it would only make things much worse.

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Oh Quiet, I posted a reply to you that didn't post for some reason (my tablet drives me NUTS!)" - I will get back to you later, but have to run for the moment, didn't want you to think I ignored you. Will write later.

In short I think you are right, but it hard watching her so lonely. Even though the first idiot kitten I tried didn't work out, I do credit the little one for snapping her out of her deep funk, and giving her the moxie to defend her turf. When she lost her bother, after about a week, I think she was going to let herself up and die. The kitten snapped her out of it, I really do think.

Will expound later :-)

Hi;

Ultimately you know your cat better than anyone else. So, I am sure you will make the best choice for her. Just think it all through as I know you will. Because another cat can also bring their other cat germs with them and thus risk infection in an already immune challenged cat. Just my two cents. If you think it will help her then of course consider it. I just have seen allot of people that will get another cat for a cat that is grieving only to find out the sad cat didn't want another cat.

Think about if your husband(?) Brother(?) or immediate family member passed, and you were grieving and suddenly you woke up a to find a "replacement". You might not be wanting to have another person around for a while, you may only miss the person gone but not find company and companionship in the new person.

I know you know all this. Just think about it,. I know you will do that too.

I hope she continues to eat and feel better.

Just a note on hissing. Hissing is not aggressive, it is defensive. It is saying to another cat or person "I don't want to fight, but keep backing me into a corner and I will if I have to". Most cats really hiss because they want to be left alone.

Also cats that are ill have this amazing way of using all of their reserves when stressed to appear normal in order to stay alive. That is why when you take an ill cat to the vet they often act just fine when you get there.

My poor Rusty with his chronic allergic rhinitis would sneeze his head off at home and I would bring him in and the vets thought I was exaggerating because he wouldn't do a thing when he was at the hospital. But once back at home again he would be much worse. It really drains them to have to put on such a game face when really ill. It uses up all their reserves that should be used for fighting the illness.

I am not being much like my screen name now am I? I will shut up now. Take care.

Quiet said:

Hi;

Ultimately you know your cat better than anyone else. So, I am sure you will make the best choice for her. Just think it all through as I know you will. Because another cat can also bring their other cat germs with them and thus risk infection in an already immune challenged cat. Just my two cents. If you think it will help her then of course consider it. I just have seen allot of people that will get another cat for a cat that is grieving only to find out the sad cat didn't want another cat.

Think about if your husband(?) Brother(?) or immediate family member passed, and you were grieving and suddenly you woke up a to find a "replacement". You might not be wanting to have another person around for a while, you may only miss the person gone but not find company and companionship in the new person.

I know you know all this. Just think about it,. I know you will do that too.

I hope she continues to eat and feel better.

Just a note on hissing. Hissing is not aggressive, it is defensive. It is saying to another cat or person "I don't want to fight, but keep backing me into a corner and I will if I have to". Most cats really hiss because they want to be left alone.

Also cats that are ill have this amazing way of using all of their reserves when stressed to a

ppear normal in order to stay alive. That is why when you take an ill cat to the vet they often act just fine when you get there.

My poor Rusty with his chronic allergic rhinitis would sneeze his head off at home and I would bring him in and the vets thought I was exaggerating because he wouldn't do a thing when he was at the hospital. But once back at home again he would be much worse. It really drains them to have to put on such a game face when really ill. It uses up all their reserves that should be used for fighting the illness.

I am not being much like my screen name now am I? I will shut up now. Take care.

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Oh Quiet, please don't think that - you are offering your opinion, it is valid and you work in the pet care field. Honestly, I've gotten more sincere, and caring, advice from the folks on this board than my own vet's office.

I've decided to shelve the potential adoption until the time is right. She had a few good days recently which made me do happy, but I may have to put an end to her suffering this week. She's not showing any outward signs of physical pain, but she is not right and starting to adopt that far away stare. Really: the odoption, I did consider the germ factor too... a lot of the cats at the shelter were sneezing for obvious reason.

The older girl that I was going to look at had a quarantine sign on her cage and I wanted to talk to the vet tech today. She is also obese...that could change with a good quality diet. This wasn't in my plan, since kittens always get adopted... but a little tortie almost all brown/black) stole me heart.

Please don't ever think I don't appreciate your advice. I do, it is sincere, valid and I'm so stressed, I'm not making the best choices. This forum, and caring members such as yourself and many others, have been a godsend. So thank you, and no worries. Enjoy your day

I did it... i really did it - at home, the full 200 ccs (maybe more by accident) - all by myself (and Roni).She was very good for the most part and cooperative.

She likes to take a stroll outside after her sub-qs, so i let her out for a few, and when she came back in, not only did i NOT get the cold shoulder, i was treated to a lap snuggle complete with purring:rub:

I hope the fluids help, she's having a bad eating day.

Yay, one success does wonders for the confidence level.