Tim is almost ready to start the transition to raw

Some of you might remember when I first joined this site, our cat Tim was a mess. He was on cisapride for constipation, was vomiting frequently, had urinary crystals, was thought to have mild asthma, and had been diagnosed with mild HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy). Our veterinarians kept trying different drugs, each of which caused new problems. In the end, we stopped everything except the cisapride because his quality of life was so poor. I believed many of his problems were possibly related and definitely due to inflammation and decided to modify his diet in an effort to reduce inflammation. Because the veterinarians had run out of ideas, they essentially wished me luck changing his diet, after commenting that it's hard to change a cat's diet.

So I came here, looking for advice about suitable cat foods. Raw was suggested, which seemed interesting and scary at the same time. I researched canned cat foods, read labels, and closely observed Tim and made notes when he vomited or seemed sick. I cut out fish, which resolved the problem with the urinary crystals. I cut out chicken and carrageenan, which stopped the vomiting. I cut out other gums, such as quar and xantham, though I am not sure it's necessary to continue to avoid those. I made bone broth and mixed it with his food every day. He got so much better: The vomiting stopped, he stopped barfing hairballs, which I had not realized was a problem, and he stopped coughing. His poops got smaller, which worried me at first until I realized it was due to his better diet, and they were not nearly as smelly.

A month later, to make sure I was on the right track and because I felt very alone, I found a holistic veterinarian who specializes in nutrition. After examining Tim, reviewing his records, and hearing about his history, she also thought he was an ideal candidate for raw. But she did not want him to start raw until he was off cisapride. She thought we should try to wean him off cisarpide to see if he could manage without it. We were happy to hear that, as we'd been asking our other veterinarian when we could take Tim off cisapride and they kept saying "not yet". In fact, about this time, the veterinarian changed his mind and said Tim would need to be on cisapride for life.

Nearly five months later, after some ups and downs, Tim is off cisapride. He had his last dose three weeks ago and is doing pretty good. Our holistic veterinarian had originally wanted to wait a good month before beginning the gradual transition to raw, to make sure he is pooping regularly on his own. But because he'd done so well with the weaning process, especially towards the end, she thought he could perhaps start a little sooner. I've emailed her details about Tim's box habits over the past three weeks and am waiting to hear if she thinks he's ready. All of us are hoping raw will help with his lingering issues - occasional, mild tummy upset and some softer stools on occasion, along with a very infrequent cough.

Okay, well, this introduction is a lot longer than I planned. Believe it or not, I do have some questions. Tim has been eating mostly canned rabbit for the past couple of months (Nature's Variety Instinct rabbit). The holistic veterinarian wanted to minimize changes to his diet during the final, critical stretch in getting him off cisapride. She has told us she wants us to begin the raw transition with rabbit, then we can gradually add more proteins. So I purchased two different brands of frozen raw rabbit so we're ready when the veterinarian gives the go-ahead and am hoping others can share their thoughts and experiences with each.

The first is Primal Feline Rabbit Pronto Formula (http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/15/id/64). I was attracted to this brand because the bone content is around 10%, which I understand is a little lower than some other frozen raw brands. Tim MAY be prone to constipation, we really don't know. (He was on cisapride because he had two severe episodes over two years apart, but never had chronic constipation. We believe we resolved  most of what contributed to his episodes by switching from dry to canned foods and by no longer free-feeding).

The second is Stella & Chewy's Frozen Morsels Absolutely Rabbit for Cats (http://www.petfoodexpress.com/produ...ys-frozen-morsels-absolutely-rabbit-for-cats/). This food is not even listed on Stella & Chewy's website; I happened to see it in the store and thought I'd try it because I've heard good things about this brand. It is higher fat and lower protein than the Primal, however, which may be an issue for a cat like Tim with a sensitive stomach. Also, I don't know the bone content, which may or may not matter.

I also have small tubs of Rad Cat in the freezer, but given Tim's experiences with chicken, I will wait to try chicken; I've heard some cats that get sick on cooked/processed chicken do well on raw and/or after they've healed. Tim was previously doing very well on turkey, but over the past couple of months I have noticed a relationship between visible signs of mild tummy upset and coughing and him eating larger quantities of turkey, so I'm concerned about poultry in general. But we're gonna try once he's doing well on raw!

Tim will be starting raw either this weekend or next. It will be a very long, slow process. Any advice or tips? Any thoughts on brands, either the two I am considering or other nutritionally-complete commercial brands? We're all excited, especially Tim- we've given him a few sneak treats and he loves it!

I haven't forgotten about you, but I haven't used anything commercial for raw other than premixes.  So I'm no help really with commercial raw.  The only thing I have heard to do is to try a teaspoon (or less?) at a time to transition to a new food.  I totally didn't follow those rules and went full raw at once.  Never said I was a role model! 

I have never tried the two brands of commercial rabbit food you mentioned but I just wanted to stop by to give good vibes for Tim!

When I started the transition for my cats in April, I added small amounts of raw to one meal of their canned food a day, increasing that amount a little each time until after 7 days, their whole breakfast meal was raw.

Then I did the same with their dinner until they were 100% and that worked well for us. Good luck, keep us posted!

Thanks, @peaches08 and @Abby2932 for the replies and encouragement!

I heard back from our holistic veterinarian yesterday afternoon and she wants us to definitely wait to begin the transition until the end of this month. She believes Tim is doing fine based on my description of his litter box habits. But she also knows the cisapride weaning process was very stressful for me, more stressful than I thought it would be. I have been (overly) obsessed with Tim's litter box habits and I think she wants to make sure 1) Tim is eliminating properly on his own and 2) I am ready for a change in his habits. She has continuously warned me that his poops will be a lot smaller, harder, and drier on raw, and he will likely not go every day. I think I'm ready but another week and a half or so won't matter too much. She wants to check him out, as well, to make sure he's good and there are no apparent physical problems. So we'll see the holistic vet the week of July 28 and hopefully begin the transition then.

And thank you both for the warning to go slow. Tim's stomach is very sensitive and I've had to make almost all food changes very slowly. The only rapid change I made was in February when he was so sick and I believed the food was the cause. The vet and I are both hoping that transitioning him to raw will help with his stomach because I do want to mix up his food and not feed the same thing all the time. But she's also advised me to take it very slow and gradual with this transition, starting with one brand and one protein, then slowly adding other brands and proteins.

For my cats, literally an immediate and ful transition was fine.  With what you've got going on, I'd go slow.  I've read where some a few months later were like, "Yay the cats are on 50% raw now!"  I can't remember the circumstances, I *think* it was that the cats wouldn't eat if you sprung too many changes on them.  Either way, your cat is pooping, and slow transitioning so you can continue to monitor poop is probably best.

I see all sizes as far as poop, and I'm  not 100% sure who's laying which.  I don't see rabbit pellets (those are bad), but I see dry shriveled things sometimes.  I'm seeing more logs, and I bet the enormous VB poops are Gadget's.  Other than that, I don't have a clue.  I only ever see them pee.

I second (or third?) the suggestion to go slow! I dabbled a bit with a raw diet last year for Sebastian, and we started with pea-sized amount...literally. 

My only other suggestion would be to watch with the bone for a cat prone to constipation. The two foods you linked to in your first post both have ground bone, but I don't know how much that actually is. Some people (who follow a recipe) use eggshell instead of bone or adjust their bone percentage to get a more desired stool consistency.  

Thanks, everyone, for the encouragement and advice! We are going to delay our transition becaue we've hit a minor bump in the road. Tim is very much off-schedule right now and may even have some mild constipation. The good news is we think we know why, but have to give him time and a little help.

As I mentioned, Tim never had chronic constipation, but had two very serious episodes. My husband and I have spent countless hours analyzing and discussing how they could have happened and we think we know one major reason why: When Tim gets stressed for any reason, he holds it and will not go. In the weeks leading up to his episodes, there was major upheaval in our house, so he likely just stopped going. Then he eventually backed up and probably couldn't go. At the time, we were free-feeding dry food; both veterinarians that cleaned him out remarked that it was like concrete and the constipation was likely due to dehydration. Plus, he ate constantly and the stuff just kept building up.

We resolved the dehydration by transitioning to canned food. We resolved the constant eating by putting both cats on scheduled feeding. Further evidence he holds it when stressed is last fall when we boarded both cats. Because we were worried about monitoring his ouput, we put the cats in separate cages; in the past, we always put them together. Abby and Tim are littermates and have never been separated for any length of time. Tim, in particular, seems particularly needy as far as Abby is concerned. So Tim did not poop the entire time he was boarded. He held that poop for over five days, and this was with daily cisapride, daily laxatone, and super-doses of laxatone on days 3, 4, and 5. The vet wanted to give him an enema but my husband wanted to take him home to see how he would do. Well, within an hour of arriving home, Tim pooped and was perfectly fine after that.

So we know he can and will hold it when stressed. And there is a major stressor going on right now, at least from Tim's perspective: The house next door, which has been empty for a year, is now occupied. And it is occupied by a large family with lots of little kids who run and scream between the houses. Tim tends to be nervous around strangers and hides from little kids. He no longer sits in our side bedroom window because that is the side with the new people; that used to be his favorite spot to hang out in the evening. I can only guess what the noise level is like during the day when we are at work. He's been off-schedule for almost a week, which is about the time they moved in. We can tell by observing Tim that he's not loving the noise and coming and going- their outside activity almost always sends him under the bed. He's just gonna have to adapt and we just need to give him time and some help. He is pooping, but it's very irregular and he even went almost 48 hours before pooping last night. I am temporarily bumping the psyllium (still tiny quantities) to stimulate movement and adding a bit of miralax to keep things soft. We are taking steps to ensure our own house is as stress-free as possible until he regulates.

Once we get through this, we will start the transition and will be back. Timing is up to Tim!

Aw, poor Tim. It's tough when stress affects them physically.

Thanks, I know; it's difficult to watch and I feel so helpless. Good news, though: Tim had a nice BM last night, 24 hours after his last one. It was a little big due to the added psyllium, so I'm backing off with that and I stopped the Miralax unless his stools harden up. We'll see how he does over the next few days.

Abby is a bit constipated, too, so I do believe it is situational and not a functional problem with Tim. Gave her this morning what I gave to Tim yesterday morning and last night (1/16 tsp each psyllium with lots of water and Miralax) and hope it helps her, too.

ssshhhhh .... don't tell our holistic veterinarian, but Tim just had a few pieces of Primal Pronto Raw Feline Rabbit Formula, mushed up with a tiny bit of warm water. He's had a rough week and we thought he would enjoy a treat. It's funny, he only ate about half of what I offered (five pieces); I don't think he knew what to do with it!

Tim's been cleared to start raw, so we are starting tonight. We are going to start with a small sample-size package of Rad Cat turkey. Based on all the advice I received on this thread and from the holistic veterinarian this afternoon, we are going to go very slowly. We are hoping that adding raw will help with Tim's lingering issue: a tummy that seems to be very sensitive to change and to higher-fat foods.

Yay!  Keep us updated!

Thanks!

Off to a good start, I think. Tim ate one ounce of Rad Cat turkey. He wasn't sure at first, and took a few sniffs, licks, and nibbles, but then he dug in and cleaned his plate. Abby stuck her front paw in the food then walked away and licked her paw. I put her back in front of the plate, but she wasn't interested. Her portion went back into the little sample container and I'll give to Tim tomorrow night. While I will offer everything to Abby, she is doing just fine on canned food. Tim is the one with issues and the one we really want to get on raw.

Tim is now under the bed. Not totally normal for him, but not abnormal for the past week or so, with disruption to his life in the form of new neighbors followed by some pretty intense tummy upset over the past week. We believe we inadvertently brought that on be feeding him a particularly fatty batch of canned rabbit over a period of five to six days. This has happened before and the common denominator is higher-fat food, so we know we need to stick to low to moderate fat for Tim. The holistic veterinarian told us we can try slightly higher fat in raw food than he seems to tolerate in canned food because it's easier to digest, so we'll see. But waiting for his stomach to settle first.

Tim seems to have tolerated his first portion of Rad Cat turkey (he had almost immediate diarrhea the first time we tried raw a few months ago). He did have a partially soft stool this morning; however, it wasn't too bad and we've seen this before when his stomach is upset. Before I saw his stool this morning, I gave him a very small amount of Primal Pronto rabbit mixed with his canned rabbit. It was only six tiny pieces and they added up to about 0.25 ounce. Given the state of his stool and he still seems to have some stomach discomfort, I plan to cut the Rad Cat turkey to 0.5 ounce per day until things settle. I won't increase either raw until I see some improvement in his stool and he stops showing signs of discomfort.

So I just fed Tim 0.5 ounce of Rad Cat turkey, which he ate without hesitation. Yay! I was mildly worried he might associate the way he feels and his slightly soft stool this morning with the "new" food, but he dove right in and licked the plate clean. I think he wanted more, but I really want to take this slow so the transition is a success. Again, I offered to Abby. Again, she was not interested.

Tim has been hiding out today again, which is a little unusual. But he's been through a lot in the past couple of weeks and I think he still doesn't feel good, particularly as his lower lip swelled again and is going down very slowly. Also, he is not very happy with me as the first few minutes of our trip to the vet yesterday were very traumatic. I truly thought I was killing him - he seemed in distress, he was crying, he was panting. It was terrible. I think it turned out to be a combination of Feliway spray in the cat carrier that had not dried all the way combined with a very hot car, which had not entirely cooled even though I was blasting the A/C. Plus the stress of going to the vet. Once the car cooled and I put him in the other cat carrier, he settled down and was his normal self on the way to the vet. He panted a bit when we got in the car to come home, so think the heat was part of it - I have a dark car and it's been very hot here. Now I know to let the car run and cool before putting him in it.

Slow and steady.

Glad to hear Tim has been cleared for a raw diet! 

Yes, slow and steady. When I first read your post that you started out at 1 ounce, I thought, "whoa...that's a lot!"  LOL. Personally, I think cutting that back is a good idea.

How is Tim today?

As with any change in diet, diarrhea and mild GI discomfort is not uncommon for some cats when switching to raw and should resolve once the body gets used to the change. The important thing, in my opinion, is that the cat continues to want to eat and is generally acting normal.

Thanks! Yes, after I fed him an ounce, which seemed very small at the time, I realized that it might have been too much at first. And his slightly soft stool the next morning confirmed it.

Yesterday, Tim had 0.75 ounce spread over the entire day: 0.25 ounce rabbit mixed in with his canned rabbit in the morning and 0.50 ounce turkey in the afternoon. Today, he had just over 0.25 ounce this morning and just over 0.5 ounce this evening, so approaching one ounce spread over the entire day.

We were out for much of the day today, but Tim seems to be hiding out less since we've been home. He's on a chair under the dining room table instead of under the bed, so I think that's improvement. His appetite is great and he was begging for more raw turkey after he had his 0.50 ounce this afternoon. He hasn't pooped yet today, so I don't know what that looks like. It's been about 36 hours, which isn't out of the ordinary for him. If the raw were upsetting to his stomach, I think we would have seen something on the soft side by now. And maybe we haven't seen anything yet because I'm adding in raw and also cutting his portions a tiny bit, as he does need to lose some weight. He is alert, a little more active, and more friendly towards me.

My only concern is Tim's lip is still swollen. It does not appear to be getting any worse, but I don't think it's improved much. He saw the vet on Friday, who could not see any particular cause for it. It does not appear to be a rodent ulcer, there are no abrasions, his teeth could use a cleaning but his gums look fine and there is no inflammation inside his mouth. This has happened a few times and we had thought that it was perhaps excess stomach acid irritating his mouth. Pepcid AC seemed to help with that before, but is not helping now. Last week, it appeared he had a few patches of hair missing from one of his ears, though it seems to be growing back now. I'm not sure what's up and wonder if he's developing some allergy. To keep things simple during the addition of raw, I stopped all canned foods except the rabbit; I don't want to give his system too many things to deal with and he had consistently tolerated rabbit well. But the rabbit formula recently changed and I'd been transitioning him between old and new. Last week, about the same time that we fed him the excessively fatty batch of rabbit, we also had to put him entirely on the new formula as I am no longer able to find the old formula (I pretty much bought everything I could find back in May when I first became aware of the formula change). I am worried something about the new formula may not agree with him, so I am anxious to see how he does on partial raw so he is not eating that food every day for both meals, but will not go any faster than he can tolerate. The interesting thing is the ingredients list is the same, though the order in which a couple of items appear is different. And the meat looks different, so maybe it's a different species of rabbit. Who knows.

Edited to add: Tim just pooped and what an improvement over yesterday! There was a very small amount of soft stool, but the rest looked great (and many pieces were full of hair). Along with his behavior today that is closer to normal, I don't think I'm rushing him. I am an impatient person by nature but have waited this long, what's a couple more weeks.

If you recall, the NV rabbit makes Sebastian itchy. I don't know if the cans I have are the old or new formula, but I have decided not to feed it to him anymore.

So glad to hear Tim's stool has improved! That's a GREAT sign. 

I do recall that Sebastian had trouble on the NV rabbit. I am a little distressed that the rabbit may be the problem and I really hope it is not. Unless and until I can successfully get him on at least partial raw, I don't know what else to feed him right now. Every time I tried to increase the amount of turkey, he started showing signs of nausea. He had never had a swollen lip until late February, and this has happened a few times. I actually think the problem may be the NV food in general, as that is the one common thing across all incidents. It happened when he was eating exclusively LID food and now with the rabbit. And he got so sick to his stomach when the LID turkey formula changed and became more "juicy" (really, fat). The NV is a much fattier food than what he ate previously and I suspect he just cannot tolerate high fat. This latest incident happened within days of us feeding him cans from a particularly juicy (fatty) batch of rabbit, so I hope that's it and not the new rabbit formula entirely.

My canned options for Tim are very limited, as he previously vomited foods that contained chicken and/or carrageenan. I am temporarily avoiding guar and other gums because he showed slight sensitivity to foods with those ingredients. However, when I tried them, it was fairly early in his stomach healing process plus I probably introduced them too quickly. My hope is to get him on half raw and half canned. And once he's settled into this, then branch out and try at least one or two other brands of canned, such as a lower-fat turkey and possibly some other proteins, so we're not relying on just NVI rabbit.