For Gods sake when will the madness end????

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oneandahalfcats

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I guess everything has to be spelled out around here....   Directly from Merriam-Webster:

Full Definition of SYMPTOM


1

a  :   subjective evidence of disease or physical disturbance;broadly  :   something that indicates the presence of bodily disorder
Yes, and maybe some people need to learn to read. I said a 'runny nose' is NOT classified as a disease, but a symptom. It was your suggestion to use runny nose as an example of a disease, to which I replied that it is not.
 
I think you presume a level of sophistication in new cat owners that by and large does not exist.   Sadly, for most people, if they get any information at all, it will be coming in the form of advertising directly from a manufacturer or else advice from a kid working in Petco.   Either way, the future outcome for having a healthy-thriving pet is bleak.
And I think you are making a lot of assumptions with those statements, which suggests to me a level of cynicism that I do not share. I think people are becoming a lot more educated about pets and their needs than ever before. Chances are good that if someone is shopping at Petco, PetSmart or other 'pet store', that they are shopping for something better than is found in a grocery store, which means that people are evolving. Unfortunately there will be some exceptions of people that don't make any effort to do right their pets. These same people probably don't spay or neuter their pets either.
 
I don`t know what to say.   The word flabbergasted keeps flashing across my frontal lobes.     First, problems from moisture insufficiency (for example concentrated urine) are going to develop well before the outward signs of acute dehydration appear - so even if someone knows about the scruff test and other checks - they are useless in preventing damage from chronic moisture deprivation that dry food has the potential to instigate.

Having bowls of water out,  fountains, even leaving the lid on the toilet open for the cats who prefer that as a water source guarantees nothing.   The fact of the matter is cats have a low thirst drive and were designed to get moisture from the food they eat.    There were no sources of water for the ancestral desert cat other than from the prey it caught - unless they lucked into an oasis or got caught in one of the very few rainy seasons - not very reliable sources of moisture for them.
There is no guarantee that a cat is getting sufficient water in my opinion, even when fed wet canned, raw or otherwise? That said, I don't know what any of what you have said here, has got to do with determining how much water a cat needs, which was your earlier question to me? Scruff tests can indicate whether a cat is dehydrated, I did not say that it guarantees whether a cat is getting sufficient water. I just threw that in there as additional information. In response, it seems to me that you are going off on these tangents just for arguments sake in an effort to control the conversation, which is becoming rather tiresome and offensive at times.

Based on a lot of your comments, it is apparent that you have read a few things at Lisa Pierson's catinfo.org site, which is good. So have I, some time ago. And while the work she has done on the subject of nutrition and cat health is great, I personally chose to take some of this information, and leave some in lieu of making up my own mind about some things. It is your choice to believe what you wish on the subject of dry food, but other people also have the right to their opinion.
 
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oneandahalfcats

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I don't disagree. But we shouldn't trust our vets? I trusted mine.

Of course, I have *since* learned they receive very little training in nutrition, and for most, that training is sponsored by either Hill's Pet or Royal Canin. But while I agree in theory - people should educate themselves - I also think many people feel they should be able to trust their vets.
I didn't say anything about not trusting your vet. What I meant by that comment, is that pet carers should put the time in to be informed about different things rather than be at the mercy of, and have to rely on a vet's say so when it comes to the health and well being of their pets, but also, so they can make informed decisions. This is especially important when it comes to having to deal with illness, knowing what medications are safe and not safe to give to pets. Metacam, which is widely prescribed as a pain relief medication, is a perfect example of a product that has harmed many pets, and something that people need to be aware of. Animals can't speak for themselves, so ultimately, who's responsibility is it for the well being of an animal? It is our responsibility as guardians, to ensure that our pets are safe and well cared for.
 
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I think this statement has to be qualified, because what may apply to some or even many vets in the U.S. doesn't necessarily do so to vets trained in other countries, and it also depends on the U.S. veterinary school and the electives or post-grad courses the vet chose while training. I've spoken with U.S. vets who did have nutritional training in vet school that wasn't "sponsored by Hill's or Royal Canin".

There's a list of vet schools with nutrition programs here: 7 Great Schools with Vet Nutrition Programs, so obviously training by board-certified nutritionists is available. The individual websites of those schools give more details.

The question, of course, is whether the vet students took advantage of the opportunities available, but blanket statements aren't helpful.
When I looked in some of the links, Hill's and Nestle Purina were mentioned as part of their program whether it be sponsoring or otherwise.  I did see that these programs are looking into homemade diets though.  One of them being Dr. Pierson's alma mater UC Davis (she graduated in 1984).  Maybe this will help some of the new vets going through school, although the vets that have graduated some time ago will be on their own to gather such information.  I don't know if continuing education is a requirement of veterinarians, but it would be nice if nutrition were part of that requirement.
 

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I didn't say anything about not trusting your vet. What I meant by that comment, is that pet carers should put the time in to be informed about different things rather than be at the mercy of, and have to rely on a vet's say so when it comes to the health and well being of their pets, but also, so they can make informed decisions. This is especially important when it comes to having to deal with illness, knowing what medications are safe and not safe to give to pets. Metacam, which is widely prescribed as a pain relief medication, is a perfect example of a product that has harmed many pets, and something that people need to be aware of. Animals can't speak for themselves, so ultimately, who's responsibility is it for the well being of an animal? It is our responsibility as guardians, to ensure that our pets are safe and well cared for.
I agree with this as I now know that vets don't always look out for the well being of your furbaby. Maybe I was wrong to have faith in someone who had a doctorate degree.
 
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Yes, and maybe some people need to learn to read. I said a 'runny nose' is NOT classified as a disease, but a symptom. It was your suggestion to use runny nose as an example of a disease, to which I replied that it is not.
Totally agree.   Some people need to learn to read.   Case in point:
Originally Posted by zoneout  

Simple.  Let`s say you have a runny nose.   This is an indicator of disease such as a viral infection or perhaps a disorder such as an allergy like hayfever. 
 
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zoneout

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I didn't say anything about not trusting your vet. What I meant by that comment, is that pet carers should put the time in to be informed about different things rather than be at the mercy of, and have to rely on a vet's say so when it comes to the health and well being of their pets, but also, so they can make informed decisions. This is especially important when it comes to having to deal with illness, knowing what medications are safe and not safe to give to pets. Metacam, which is widely prescribed as a pain relief medication, is a perfect example of a product that has harmed many pets, and something that people need to be aware of. Animals can't speak for themselves, so ultimately, who's responsibility is it for the well being of an animal? It is our responsibility as guardians, to ensure that our pets are safe and well cared for.


Couldn`t agree more.   We set ourselves up for disaster when that usually competent vet (given benefit of the doubt) has a brain fart and does something like prescribe prednisone for a severely dehydrated cat without administering additional fluid intake.   Or better yet, how about administering a rabies vaccine to an elderly, indoor cat severely weakened by cancer.   The horror stories are endless.   Our only defense is to either get second opinions on everything - which is financially draining or else educate ourselves enough to know when our pet is being put in harms way.
 

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Absolutely not.  I wouldn`t trust any of them.  Especially if it is a new relationship.   How do you know your vet is actually working with your pet in the backroom - and not some disgruntled veterinary tech?     

Trust needs to be earned.   If over a period of time things are working well then as time goes by they can earn more of your trust.   But you always need to be cautious.   People make mistakes and doctors and vets are human last time I checked - unfortunately we afford them God-like status to our own detriment.  Remember 50% of the vets out there graduated in the lower half of their class .   You protect yourself and your pet by becoming educated.   This allows you to check what they are doing and ask proper questions. 

Yes, people feel they should be able to trust their vets and their doctors for that matter - but it is naive to think they are all-knowing and perfect beings.    This is why the concept of `second-opinion` exists.   Not all vets - or doctors - or people think alike or have the same background or experience.   
Absolutely right. Why did I blindly trust the vet? Because to me, cats were an alien species. I don't necessarily blindly trust my doctors - so why I (and I am not alone in this) trusted the vet, I have no idea. Perhaps because our first encounter was him saving the life of one of our rescue cats. :dk:

But you know what? The access to information on the internet makes it SO much easier for us to do that learning and research. This didn't exist the way it does now in 2002, when we rescued our first cats. That shouldn't stand as an excuse. But it *is* much easier to educate ourselves in 2014.
 
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zoneout

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Based on a lot of your comments, it is apparent that you have read a few things at Lisa Pierson's catinfo.org site, which is good. So have I, some time ago. And while the work she has done on the subject of nutrition and cat health is great, I personally chose to take some of this information, and leave some in lieu of making up my own mind about some things. It is your choice to believe what you wish on the subject of dry food, but other people also have the right to their opinion.
Correct.   I happened upon catinfo.org after both of my otherwise healthy 3yo male cats blocked.   I never even knew this was a possibility.   I did not want to go through this again.  It was absolutely horrific listening to their yowls of pain knowing that their bladders could rupture at any moment.    I needed answers!  Both of the vets in each case said, `We don`t know what causes it`.    As I was checking Wolfie out of the hospital and paying the $2,700 bill, the cashier/receptionist said to me `the problem is dry food.`    How could that be?   I was feeding him the best....EVO - the evolutionary diet - no grains.   It didn`t make sense to me.   At that point, I thought it could still be the clumping litter as the culprit.  I got home and started googling.    catinfo.org was the first hit.   I read, I learned, I understood.    After taking it all in, I actually remember going back to where the author`s name was mentioned because I thought I saw the letters DVM there.    I went back and there it was.   `Lisa Pierson, DVM`     She plainly and courageously exposed the truth where my cowardly, gutless vets would not dare to go with the bags of SD piled high on their shelves.   My next cat is going to be named Lisa in her honor.  I can`t wait.
 

oneandahalfcats

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I didn't say anything about not trusting your vet. What I meant by that comment, is that pet carers should put the time in to be informed about different things rather than be at the mercy of, and have to rely on a vet's say so when it comes to the health and well being of their pets, but also, so they can make informed decisions. This is especially important when it comes to having to deal with illness, knowing what medications are safe and not safe to give to pets. Metacam, which is widely prescribed as a pain relief medication, is a perfect example of a product that has harmed many pets, and something that people need to be aware of. Animals can't speak for themselves, so ultimately, who's responsibility is it for the well being of an animal? It is our responsibility as guardians, to ensure that our pets are safe and well cared for.
To add to my previous comments ...

I trust my vet, but I also make it my business to research what she suggests in the way of treatment. We then come to a consensus on the course of treatment, changes in diet, etc. In this way, my vet and I are a partnership, and this is how it should be, in my opinion. A partnership that involves input from both sides. While vets are trained to know about various illnesses, and diagnose what is wrong through physical examination and diagnostic testing, they are not mind readers, and rely very much on feedback from pet owners, especially when it comes to information about diet, behavior, and what is going on in the home, which may be contributing factors to illness and disease.
 
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oneandahalfcats

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Correct.   I happened upon catinfo.org after both of my otherwise healthy 3yo male cats blocked.   I never even knew this was a possibility.   I did not want to go through this again.  It was absolutely horrific listening to their yowls of pain knowing that their bladders could rupture at any moment.    I needed answers!  Both of the vets in each case said, `We don`t know what causes it`.    As I was checking Wolfie out of the hospital and paying the $2,700 bill, the cashier/receptionist said to me `the problem is dry food.`    How could that be?   I was feeding him the best....EVO - the evolutionary diet - no grains.   It didn`t make sense to me.   At that point, I thought it could still be the clumping litter as the culprit.  I got home and started googling.    catinfo.org was the first hit.   I read, I learned, I understood.    After taking it all in, I actually remember going back to where the author`s name was mentioned because I thought I saw the letters DVM there.    I went back and there it was.   `Lisa Pierson, DVM`     She plainly and courageously exposed the truth where my cowardly, gutless vets would not dare to go with the bags of SD piled high on their shelves.   My next cat is going to be named Lisa in her honor.  I can`t wait.
As unfortunate as your situation was, I would say that two cats blocking at the same time is rare. As to the suggestion that 'the problem is dry food', I think it is more correct to say that ultimately, 'not enough water' is the real culprit. There are different ways to address this. As I mentioned before, my cats have never blocked when on dry food, and have always been good drinkers. That said, did you know that cats can also block when fed a wet canned diet? If dry food is the problem, then how can this be? The answers are varied. A diet that is too high in magnesium or phosphorus which causes an imbalance of minerals, or food that contains too many carbs, stress and genetic predisposition. Some cats are just predisposed to increases in ph which leads to crystal formation, despite being on a meat diet, and have to be managed with supplementation. Meat alone is sometimes not enough.

Here is a link to Cornell University's page on FLUTD, which contains some good information about the subject : http://www.vet.cornell.edu/FHC/health_resources/UrinaryConcerns.cfm

I use a holistic vet who is both a proponent of high quality commercial diets as well as raw and a home cooked diet. We have talked about diet quite a bit, and the main consensus is that there is not one magic bullet for every cat. My vet does not agree with the suggestion that all cats can or should be on a raw diet or total wet canned diet, for that matter. Every cat has a different set of needs when it comes to nutrition, which will be based largely on their own person makeup, and history. What works for one cat, may not necessarily work for another. This is why I think some of the information being pushed about the need for ALL cats to be on a total meat diet, is wrong, as it doesn't take enough factors into consideration.

Regarding your search to find answers and finding Dr. Pierson's site, its good that you found information that you can identify with, but this seems to contrast greatly with your general opinion of vets in suggesting that it is naive to think that vets are all-knowing and perfect beings, or is it because Dr. Pierson makes it known that she disagrees with her colleagues on the subject of dry food? Her research is commendable and much of what she talks about is true to a great extent, but her stance on dry food is clear. That's fine. Her choice. But like anything else, people should look at the information with some objectivity rather than from the emotional position of having come from a bad experience, so that choices are made not in a desperate state to fix a problem, but from the perspective of what is best for the individual cat.
 
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zoneout

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Regarding your search to find answers and finding Dr. Pierson's site, its good that you found information that you can identify with, but this seems to contrast greatly with your general opinion of vets in suggesting that it is naive to think that vets are all-knowing and perfect beings, or is it because Dr. Pierson makes it known that she disagrees with her colleagues on the subject of dry food? Her research is commendable and much of what she talks about is true to a great extent, but her stance on dry food is clear. That's fine. Her choice. 
No divergence at all.   I didn`t blindly take what Dr. Pierson presented as the gospel.   At first glance her finding appeared plausible.  But I still had to go back and re-read it multiple times as well as corroborate her experience with the experience of others such as Lyn Thomson.   Truthfully, the nail in the coffin came from haunting posts from members of this site TCS, and over at www.catforum.com.   I was seeing thread after thread of urinary health problems where time and again the member had posted that they were feeding kibble.   I would casually estimate the mention of kibble in at least 90% of those cases.   As I further followed many frantic posts in the health category it became obvious as to the epidemic nature of feline organ failure which startlingly was occurring in mostly middle-age cats (about 7-12 yo).   Had the posts been from people reporting trouble in their elderly cats I probably wouldn`t have batted an eye.   But they were begging for help for their cats with kidney desease, pancreatic failure, diabetes, cancer, etc that were still relatively young animals.  It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to understand that we should not be seeing these chronic, degenerative diseases occurring at anywhere near these rates in animals still considered in the prime of life. 
 But like anything else, people should look at the information with some objectivity rather than from the emotional position of having come from a bad experience, so that choices are made not in a desperate state to fix a problem, but from the perspective of what is best for the individual cat.
I don`t see how these goals are incongruous. 
  And anyway it is very hard to set one`s emotions aside when there is pain and suffering going on .... at least for me anyway.
 

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No divergence at all.   I didn`t blindly take what Dr. Pierson presented as the gospel.   At first glance her finding appeared plausible.  But I still had to go back and re-read it multiple times as well as corroborate her experience with the experience of others such as Lyn Thomson.   Truthfully, the nail in the coffin came from haunting posts from members of this site TCS, and over at www.catforum.com.   I was seeing thread after thread of urinary health problems where time and again the member had posted that they were feeding kibble.   I would casually estimate the mention of kibble in at least 90% of those cases.   As I further followed many frantic posts in the health category it became obvious as to the epidemic nature of feline organ failure which startlingly was occurring in mostly middle-age cats (about 7-12 yo).   Had the posts been from people reporting trouble in their elderly cats I probably wouldn`t have batted an eye.   But they were begging for help for their cats with kidney desease, pancreatic failure, diabetes, cancer, etc that were still relatively young animals.  It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to understand that we should not be seeing these chronic, degenerative diseases occurring at anywhere near these rates in animals still considered in the prime of life. 

I have not disputed, nor can I dispute that some cats will have a problem with dry food if people are unaware of the need for sufficient water in their cat's diet. But, there are other factors as to why cats can have a problem with dry food. Too many carbs which can have an effect on ph levels, and weight gain which can lead to obesity and diabetes. An insufficient amount of protein or the right kind and amount of nutrients. This stems from feeding poor quality dry food like SD, or some of the prescription foods that feature too much corn as a protein source instead of actual meat protein. I have mentioned these things in my other thread. The difference for me is that not all dry foods are created equal,  but oftentimes, these sorts of discussions about dry food, tend to lump all dry food in the same basket, and in my opinion, this is wrong. Furthermore, I feel it is a form of misinformation when people talk in terms of ALL dry food being bad, that all of it contains junk ingredients, and that there is nothing good about any of it. There have been similar comments made about wet canned food, suggesting that it is too processed, contains inferior products, and this is just not the case with all wet food. Those who make these comments about commercial dry and wet food, are usually the same people who feed raw or home cooked, without a thought to the fact that they once fed this food to their cats. At the time it was acceptable, but now it is not?

If people are going to feed dry food, then there are things they need to be aware of. One, cats need sufficient water. This means ensuring that there is water available and that cats are actually consuming enough. Two, dry food needs to contain a sufficient amount of good quality protein. Three, dry food should not feature too many carbs, but be made up of primarily meat protein. Four, dry food should be fed in controlled amounts as it is generally higher in calories than wet food, and free-feeding of dry food can lead to weight gain, obesity if left unchecked, and diabetes.

If the above conditions can be met, then I don't see why people can't feed SOME dry food. If the above conditions can't be met, then people should reconsider feeding dry food to their pet. It's all about education, in my opinion.

I don`t see how these goals are incongruous. 
  And anyway it is very hard to set one`s emotions aside when there is pain and suffering going on .... at least for me anyway.

I am not suggesting that emotion should be set aside. But people sometimes make snap decisions about things out of a desperate need to fix a problem or because they read something somewhere that convinced them that a change was needed, when maybe what they need to do is take a step back and look at a situation to determine if the change is in their cat's best interest or what form the change should take, before making a decision about diet change, approach to addressing a condition .... Case in point is when someone abruptly stops dry food because some information they read convinced them that wet food is what they should be feeding. Nothing wrong with that thinking, but then their cat develops constipation because their system is not used to the reduced bulk. This is not a judgement of the person making the decision, but just highlights the need for people to consider changes carefully and do changes at a slow pace, or there can be consequences. The same with the decision to switch to raw or home cooked food. This requires some thought as to whether it is appropriate to feed this to some cats. Raw food is an ideal in my opinion, which is attainable for some. But the reality is that not all cats can or should be fed this, depending on their specific condition and history, nor will all cats be interested in eating raw food. Certainly cats with a compromised immune system, should not be fed this, but how many people are aware of this factor. They read all of the great feedback from other pet carers about how healthy and wonderful raw feeding can be for cats and dogs, and there is no question that it can be, but sometimes passion tends to take center stage, and there can be a lack of mention sometimes as to what it takes to feed this, or what might be at stake, for some cats. The focus is more about what people 'should' be feeding as a matter of opinion, rather than looking at the individual cat. Again, the need for some objectivity, and I would say, education, cannot be understated when it comes to determining whether a diet choice is appropriate.
 
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I am afraid for that most regular veterinarians will not change their views on nutrition because they don't really care, have no interest in learning about it, and the major pet food companies keep funding everything veterinary related. I worked for Specialists in Internal Medicine and Surgery and never did they recommend anything except for the Science Diet, Purina Rx, or Royal Canin and Heaven help anyone that tried to bring anything up about nutrition to them. Owners that fed home made diets etc were deemed to be at best neurotic but mostly they were thought of as psychopaths. Even at the big Veterinary Conventions there was nothing brought up about anything but the Specialty Rx Veterinary diets, convenientlycoming in canned or dry.
 

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I am afraid for that most regular veterinarians will not change their views on nutrition because they don't really care, have no interest in learning about it, and the major pet food companies keep funding everything veterinary related. I worked for Specialists in Internal Medicine and Surgery and never did they recommend anything except for the Science Diet, Purina Rx, or Royal Canin and Heaven help anyone that tried to bring anything up about nutrition to them. Owners that fed home made diets etc were deemed to be at best neurotic but mostly they were thought of as psychopaths. Even at the big Veterinary Conventions there was nothing brought up about anything but the Specialty Rx Veterinary diets, convenientlycoming in canned or dry.
There are other types of dry food besides SD, Purina and RC, and yet these discussions always focus on these types of foods to the exclusion of others that may provide some reasonable nutrition. Maybe what really needs to happen, is for vets to be educated about better dry foods, and the important considerations for feeding this. Mine are and I would expect that there are others, but if these discussions and what you have mentioned here are any indication, more education is needed.
 
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Hi,

The problem is that RC, SD, and P are the ones that usually fund the research and give scholarships as well as being the major contributors to all the veterinary conferences and continuing education. I am not saying all vets just the majority of veterinarians.

For the record I do feed my cats fancy feast the classic variety and RC SO diet. The reasons for that is it happens to be what my cats do well on. I do try to keep the RCSO to a minimum but my older cat needs his kibble crack. I did try him on different better quality dry but his urinary issues returned. The first urinary issue was with a private company cat food called Solid Gold. He blocked. His urine ph was 8.5.
 

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HI Again;

Another thing that has to be factored in is people feeding the feral cats in the world. I can totally see why they would be feeding dry.
 

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HI Again;

Another thing that has to be factored in is people feeding the feral cats in the world. I can totally see why they would be feeding dry.
Absolutely. What it boils down to for me, is making informed choices about good food versus not so good food, doing what you can with what you have to work with, but also, doing what works for your specific cat.
 

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The TCS team would like to thank all participants in this thread for their input.  We will be locking this thread now.

Obviously, what we feed our cats is a sensitive subject.

Hopefully, we'll take what we've learned in this thread about people's various opinions and use that to become an even better community, respectful towards each other's legitimate cat care choices.
 
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