For Gods sake when will the madness end????

ldg · Jul 2, 2014

As to the scientific studies, no, there really aren't any. We explored the subject here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239547/scientific-studies-supporting-raw-food-diet

Though there was a study recently conducted in dogs. The results of the study were presented at the 14th Annual AAVN Clinical Nutrition & Research Symposium earlier in June (this year). I haven't been able to locate the proceedings. But here is the press release about the study (note that it is partially cooked food, not raw, in the same manner that Dr. Pierson suggests): http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...for-dogs-than-processed-kibble-261652391.html

zoneout · Jul 2, 2014

peaches08 said:
That's a good point. When wild animals would get my chickens, the choicier stuff was breasts and anything in the thoracic cavity. Granted I'm talking about bobcat, coyote, possums, and raccoons, but still...cats have to eat and run sometimes so I can see similarities there.

Maybe there is a future in pet food drive-thrus after all.

zoneout · Jul 2, 2014

LDG said:
"The Felidae, the most advanced fully carnivorous family, show a correspondingly advanced type of gut structure: the caecum, although present, is small and the hind gut is short with virtually no distinction between colon and rectum. The fact that the gut of the domestic cat is significantly longer than that of the European wildcat may represent a secondary adaptation of the former to the more varied diet it receives in its association with man. It would, however, be desirable also to have comparative figures for the African wildcat, usually regarded as ancestral to the domestic cat, before accepting this conclusion." p. 115

The problem? The length of the gut apparently isn't a sign of "evoluation." It is an adaptation, and it can happen within one lifespan. Are you familiar with the Pottenger cats? If so, I'd like to say that this is not a study I like to reference. The cat's need for taurine was not known, and at least some of the deficiencies noted in the raw vs cooked-fed cats can potentially be attributed to the lack of taurine supplementation (though the diets should have had plenty, even cooked). But it is, nonetheless, a fascinating read as everything was so meticulously documented. He studied hundreds of cats over a 10 year period, through multiple generations.

Notably,

"The intestinal tracts of the allergic cats prove particularly remarkable at autopsy. Measurements of the length of the gastrointestinal tracts of several hundred normal and deficient adult cats are compared. The measurement starts at the epiglottis and includes the esophagus, the stomach, duodenum, jeunum and the colon to the rectum. In the average normal cat, the intestinal tract is approximately 48 inches long; in some of the allergic cats, the intestinal tracts measure as long as 72 to 80 inches. These elongated tracts lack tissue tone and elasticity." (p. 35) Pottenter's Cats: A study in nutrition. Francis M. Pottenger, Jr., MD 2nd ed 2012 (originally published 1983, though the studies were conducted from 1932 to 1942). Sorry - I couldn't find it on google books. I have the book.

So I'm going to have to say, based on this knowledge, that the length of the digestive tract isn't an indication of what a cat *should* eat - but, rather, merely reflects what it *does* eat. It is, I think, more likely that changes in enzymatic activity would be indicative of evolution. And cats, based on current studies, have not developed new pathways of digesting carbs, nor the ability to convert LA to AA, &etc.

I would side firmly in the camp that says the longer digestive tract of domestic cats is at best an adaptation and at worst an indicator of disease - especially when you factor in the statement, "These elongated tracts lack tissue tone and elasticity." It is well known that cats eating a raw meat diet will have stool that has about 3 times less volume than a cat eating a non-raw diet. It seems a logical conclusion that the large stool size and the extra strain it brings on will by necessity increase the size of the intestine, adversely impact tissue tone, elasticity, and impair motility. (Thus also possibly being the leading cause to the dramatic rise in hairball wretching we see in cats today.)

Anne · Jul 2, 2014

LDG said:
In addition to biological value, protein digestibility is key — what good is a food with a higher protein content if the protein isn't also easy to digest? In the short digestive tract of cats, plant proteins are far less digestible than meat proteins. "

___________________

So..... amino acids may be amino acids. But they do come in a form / format that has to be broken down to get at those amino acids.

...And.... as Sarah Ann points out, the composition of the amino acids in those proteins can also make a difference - and they vary a great deal.

Interesting study there, Laurie, thank you for sharing!

You're right that not all protein types are always bio-available to people or cats. Those that are though, provide the same building blocks. To further clarify, I don't mean to say that every protein has all essential amino acids either. Obviously, plant-based proteins are often lacking in certain essential amino-acids. However, by combining sources and supplementing as may be necessary (taurine amino acid, for example, in the case of cats), you can provide the entire needed selection of amino acids. In the case of cats, if you use animal-derived sources, is there a reason in your opinion that processed and even highly-processed meat-meal-based cat food should not provide a cat with all the required proteins and/or amino acids?

As for the study, I'm reading it a bit differently. First, they only used nine cats in the entire study, three per group, so the exact numbers need to be looked at in this light, statistically. More importantly, note the "Food-restricted blood metabolite concentrations of domestic cats" table. Yes, when measured in fecal matter, an exclusively-meat diet is more digestible, no argument there, but when it comes to the actual blood tests? These differences really mellow out. The extruded diet (kibble) doesn't bring on significantly different results (again, keeping in mind the very small sample of cats used). In other words, cats can thrive on good quality kibble (which I assume is what they used), just as well as they can on meat. The main difference you're going to get is a reduced stool volume. A noble cause in its own right, some might say.

As for Dr. Peterson, he's talking about something different, IMHO. He's talking about protein sources and how much bio-available protein there is in them for cats. He's not really a nutritionist, and with all due respect, I think misuses the term "biological value". I think he means bio-availability, which is defined as "the proportion of a drug or other substance that enters the circulation when introduced into the body and so is able to have an active effect." So, yes, when an animal can't digest a certain protein, or any other substance, it will not get absorbed and won't show up in the bloodstream. It's just like carbohydrates are not bio-available to us humans in certain forms unless we cook them first. I'm not sure what he bases his data on - a reference to a proper study would have been better than a bar graph - but still, it generally makes sense. I don't think anyone argued, at least I didn't, that plant-based protein is as bio-available as meat-based protein for cats. It still does have a great measure of bio-availability though, so in that regard alone, can be a good source of protein for cats (albeit not as good as meat, but it could just a matter of quantity). The proteins are still bio-available to the cats, even if to a lesser degree. In kibble, there is always a mix of protein sources too, and as the table shows, the "meal" sources can provide highly bio-available protein.

I'm really enjoying the debate, by the way. Just so long as you remember that I am not against feeding a raw-based diet or a homemade diet even. I do believe that done right, this is an excellent top-notch diet for cats. All I'm trying to say is that I am not convinced that feeding a quality processed diet is necessarily inferior, certainly not when you bring more factors (non-dietary ones) into the equation.

zoneout · Jul 2, 2014

roguethecat said:
I so love this discussion!

from my guys' point of view: if given small prey like mice and small rats, they eat the whole thing with gusto, but with larger rats they don't eat the stomach (with is filled with corn). Just putting in my few cents worth

Just wondering why you feed live prey. Do you show your cats at exhibitions?

zoneout · Jul 2, 2014

peaches08 said:
I can understand veterinary practices selling the prescription foods. For example, people ask me about feeding raw then come to me later "Yeah, I've been feeding leftover cooked bones, just like you said to!" No, that isn't what I said. At all. Matter of fact, it's 180 degrees in the opposite direction from what I said, and I'm really clear-spoken in person. Or my favorite, "I've been saving grass clippings to make my cat raw food!" Do what?! When in the world did I ever suggest that? That is the one time that I told a person straight up to leave the idea of raw completely alone and to simply buy canned cat food (I literally stressed "cat"). Some people are just...wow.

It does amaze me sometimes how we have survived this long as a species. Like, when you buy an iron now it comes with a warning label saying to remove your clothes before you use it.

But I guess that`s why the Darwin awards are filled with an ample number of candidates every year.

zoneout · Jul 3, 2014

oneandahalfcats said:
Quote:

There is no question that cats need high protein in their diet, and the best source of this is wet canned or raw. But this doesn't mean that cats can't also derive nutritional value from a bit of good quality dry food, and I think a bit of dry food is what most of us are referring to when it comes to feeding dry food. That said, if people want to play it safe and stay away from kibble, rather than taking the time to be informed to learn about the differences between good dry food and bad, then this is their choice I guess.

The folks I am most concerned with are the new cat owners coming along who happily walk out of the store or shelter with kitty in hand along with a bag of kibble. Blissfully unaware of all the future problems this has the potential to cause as the owner is quickly hooked on kibble due to the convenience of it. As long as the cat keeps eating it when they get home, there is no reason for this novice cat owner to look elsewhere for food. Fluffy is eating - owner is happy. Until the eventual day that the cat starts vomiting, blocking, has the runs, or much worse. At that point said novice owner will go to their vet and likely get prescription garbage in a can or bag (probably a bag since Fluffy is hooked on kibble by now).

So no - a bit of dry food has nothing to do with it. I don`t even know what a `bit` of dry food is or what purpose it would fulfill except as a fill-in if the owner couldn`t be home for a couple of days.

oneandahalfcats · Jul 3, 2014

zoneout said:
The folks I am most concerned with are the new cat owners coming along who happily walk out of the store or shelter with kitty in hand along with a bag of kibble. Blissfully unaware of all the future problems this has the potential to cause as the owner is quickly hooked on kibble due to the convenience of it. As long as the cat keeps eating it when they get home, there is no reason for this novice cat owner to look elsewhere for food. Fluffy is eating - owner is happy. Until the eventual day that the cat starts vomiting, blocking, has the runs, or much worse. At that point said novice owner will go to their vet and likely get prescription garbage in a can or bag (probably a bag since Fluffy is hooked on kibble by now).

So no - a bit of dry food has nothing to do with it. I don`t even know what a `bit` of dry food is or what purpose it would fulfill except as a fill-in if the owner couldn`t be home for a couple of days.

Are you a vet? Are you a nutritionist? Do you feed raw? No? Then what, beyond personal experience or having read some things, qualifies you to determine what is or isn't an appropriate food for a cat?

It annoys me when people start a thread using personal experiences or things they have read as their basis to launch a tirade about a particular food without taking all things into consideration. Its one thing to have an opinion and preference for a certain type of food, but it is disrespectful in my opinion, to say things like 'dry food is poison' and talk about a food choice in such a way that by association, denigrates those who have chosen for whatever reason, to feed this food in some shape or form.

I see from some of your comments that your cat has had some trouble with UTIs and/or blocking. That is unfortunate. But the truth is, not all cats block or develop UTIs, even when fed dry food. Personally I can attest, that in my 53 years of owning pets, many of which were cats, none have blocked or developed UTIs, with the exception of one. One cat out of the nine cats that I have cared for through the years, did develop crystals, but was not blocked. This was Thomas, our young tuxedo boy, who showed up at our door almost two years ago, was found with crystals but he had zero symptoms and was not blocked. We believe that he has a genetic predisposition that causes his ph level to increase, thereby creating conditions for crystal formation. We are taking steps to address this. But to my point, based on all of the information out there suggesting a link to dry food and UTIs, more of my cats should have developed problems? But the facts are that there is more to UTIs and the causes of blocking, than just diet. And the sooner people realize this, the more informed they will be. To quote Sarah Ann earlier in this read 'Too much focus on the food, causes people to over look other issues', says it all.

As for a 'bit of food', this is what many here, feed our cats, and is an important consideration when talking about dry food. That said, if the only opinions that you are interested in are those that mirror your own opinion of dry food, then you should have made this clear in your initial post.

oneandahalfcats · Jul 3, 2014

zoneout said:
I would side firmly in the camp that says the longer digestive tract of domestic cats is at best an adaptation and at worst an indicator of disease - especially when you factor in the statement, "These elongated tracts lack tissue tone and elasticity." cats today.)

How is a longer digestive tract, automatically an indicator of disease? You are talking about a physical attribute which receives food. This doesn't make sense?
Your comments here are assumptions at best. The stool of cats on commercial canned diets AND dry food I would say (based on my own experiences with different foods), can be equally less voluminous as raw food. What can make stools large are foods that contain complex carbs and fiber sources such as corn, wheat, and psyllium, etc. Many dry foods do not contain these things.

oneandahalfcats · Jul 3, 2014

LDG said:
Fiber *becomes* a necessary thing for some cats.

There are a plethora of reasons why fiber can become necessary for a cat, besides GI impairment. Loss of muscle tone in the colon, or arthritis with age, diabetes, kidney disease, less physical activity. But to my point, as with humans due to physiological differences, cats require and do better with a bit of fiber in their diet.

LDG said:
As to the kibble - OK. Some manufacturing processes are better than others. Some ingredients are better than others. It doesn't change the fact that the category of food is made from rendered ingredients, extruded, baked, sprayed with fats, and on average 10% moisture.

Aaand, we're back.

I asked this before but where is it written that dry food should be considered a source of moisture for cats? Dry food was not designed for this purpose, but is another form of nutrition. Sufficient water intake is partly the responsibility of the cat, and cat carer if a cat is not inclined to drink water.

I'd like to correct some assumptions people may have about meat sources in dry food, based on the above comments, and those in the post about Peterson's study :

1. Not all dry food is composed of 'meat meal', or contains grains. NV does not contain meat meal but meat. Orijen contains both meat and meat meal.

2. The meat in dry food is NOT a rendered product. Meat meal IS a rendered product.

3. Some would assume that there is more meat protein mass in meat than meat meal, but it is actually meat meal that has a greater concentration of actual meat on a dry matter basis. Another difference between meat and meat meal, is in the processing. Meat is only cooked ONCE in the process as it is added raw to the kibble "dough" before being cooked to produce kibble. Meat meal is a rendered product using the whole carcass of a chicken, or parts of beef, rabbit, etc. The rendering process removes the moisture content of the meat, which when ground, results in a highly concentrated meal that is then added to the mix and processed to make kibble.

oneandahalfcats · Jul 3, 2014

Anne said:
Interesting study there, Laurie, thank you for sharing!

You're right that not all protein types are always bio-available to people or cats. Those that are though, provide the same building blocks. To further clarify, I don't mean to say that every protein has all essential amino acids either. Obviously, plant-based proteins are often lacking in certain essential amino-acids. However, by combining sources and supplementing as may be necessary (taurine amino acid, for example, in the case of cats), you can provide the entire needed selection of amino acids. In the case of cats, if you use animal-derived sources, is there a reason in your opinion that processed and even highly-processed meat-meal-based cat food should not provide a cat with all the required proteins and/or amino acids?

As for the study, I'm reading it a bit differently. First, they only used nine cats in the entire study, three per group, so the exact numbers need to be looked at in this light, statistically. More importantly, note the "Food-restricted blood metabolite concentrations of domestic cats" table. Yes, when measured in fecal matter, an exclusively-meat diet is more digestible, no argument there, but when it comes to the actual blood tests? These differences really mellow out. The extruded diet (kibble) doesn't bring on significantly different results (again, keeping in mind the very small sample of cats used). In other words, cats can thrive on good quality kibble (which I assume is what they used), just as well as they can on meat. The main difference you're going to get is a reduced stool volume. A noble cause in its own right, some might say.

As for Dr. Peterson, he's talking about something different, IMHO. He's talking about protein sources and how much bio-available protein there is in them for cats. He's not really a nutritionist, and with all due respect, I think misuses the term "biological value". I think he means bio-availability, which is defined as "the proportion of a drug or other substance that enters the circulation when introduced into the body and so is able to have an active effect." So, yes, when an animal can't digest a certain protein, or any other substance, it will not get absorbed and won't show up in the bloodstream. It's just like carbohydrates are not bio-available to us humans in certain forms unless we cook them first. I'm not sure what he bases his data on - a reference to a proper study would have been better than a bar graph - but still, it generally makes sense. I don't think anyone argued, at least I didn't, that plant-based protein is as bio-available as meat-based protein for cats. It still does have a great measure of bio-availability though, so in that regard alone, can be a good source of protein for cats (albeit not as good as meat, but it could just a matter of quantity). The proteins are still bio-available to the cats, even if to a lesser degree. In kibble, there is always a mix of protein sources too, and as the table shows, the "meal" sources can provide highly bio-available protein.

I'm really enjoying the debate, by the way. Just so long as you remember that I am not against feeding a raw-based diet or a homemade diet even. I do believe that done right, this is an excellent top-notch diet for cats. All I'm trying to say is that I am not convinced that feeding a quality processed diet is necessarily inferior, certainly not when you bring more factors (non-dietary ones) into the equation.

As always Anne, your responses are thoughtful and fair. I am curious though as to why you feel it is necessary to keep saying that you are not against a raw-based diet? I am not against a raw-based either, but I don't feel the need to apologize or make concessions for my position here on dry food. Not that I am implying that you are, but it seems that you feel it necessary to smooth over why you are seeing things in a certain way? I think it is important that everyone has respect and acceptance for people's choices. We have talked about this very thing, a number of times in other posts, but again, I think some people have missed the boat entirely, in favor of sticking to their guns and carrying on with remarks that are in most cases, not supported or based in fact, in other instances are insulting in my opinion, and denigrate, by association, other people and their food choices, and what they may or may not know about nutrition.

Anne · Jul 3, 2014

oneandahalfcats said:
Anne said:

Interesting study there, Laurie, thank you for sharing!

You're right that not all protein types are always bio-available to people or cats. Those that are though, provide the same building blocks. To further clarify, I don't mean to say that every protein has all essential amino acids either. Obviously, plant-based proteins are often lacking in certain essential amino-acids. However, by combining sources and supplementing as may be necessary (taurine amino acid, for example, in the case of cats), you can provide the entire needed selection of amino acids. In the case of cats, if you use animal-derived sources, is there a reason in your opinion that processed and even highly-processed meat-meal-based cat food should not provide a cat with all the required proteins and/or amino acids?

As for the study, I'm reading it a bit differently. First, they only used nine cats in the entire study, three per group, so the exact numbers need to be looked at in this light, statistically. More importantly, note the "Food-restricted blood metabolite concentrations of domestic cats" table. Yes, when measured in fecal matter, an exclusively-meat diet is more digestible, no argument there, but when it comes to the actual blood tests? These differences really mellow out. The extruded diet (kibble) doesn't bring on significantly different results (again, keeping in mind the very small sample of cats used). In other words, cats can thrive on good quality kibble (which I assume is what they used), just as well as they can on meat. The main difference you're going to get is a reduced stool volume. A noble cause in its own right, some might say.

As for Dr. Peterson, he's talking about something different, IMHO. He's talking about protein sources and how much bio-available protein there is in them for cats. He's not really a nutritionist, and with all due respect, I think misuses the term "biological value". I think he means bio-availability, which is defined as "the proportion of a drug or other substance that enters the circulation when introduced into the body and so is able to have an active effect." So, yes, when an animal can't digest a certain protein, or any other substance, it will not get absorbed and won't show up in the bloodstream. It's just like carbohydrates are not bio-available to us humans in certain forms unless we cook them first. I'm not sure what he bases his data on - a reference to a proper study would have been better than a bar graph - but still, it generally makes sense. I don't think anyone argued, at least I didn't, that plant-based protein is as bio-available as meat-based protein for cats. It still does have a great measure of bio-availability though, so in that regard alone, can be a good source of protein for cats (albeit not as good as meat, but it could just a matter of quantity). The proteins are still bio-available to the cats, even if to a lesser degree. In kibble, there is always a mix of protein sources too, and as the table shows, the "meal" sources can provide highly bio-available protein.

I'm really enjoying the debate, by the way. Just so long as you remember that I am not against feeding a raw-based diet or a homemade diet even. I do believe that done right, this is an excellent top-notch diet for cats. All I'm trying to say is that I am not convinced that feeding a quality processed diet is necessarily inferior, certainly not when you bring more factors (non-dietary ones) into the equation.

Click to expand...

As always Anne, your responses are thoughtful and fair. I am curious though as to why you feel it is necessary to keep saying that you are not against a raw-based diet? I am not against a raw-based either, but I don't feel the need to apologize or make concessions for my position here on dry food. Not that I am implying that you are, but it seems that you feel it necessary to smooth over why you are seeing things in a certain way? I think it is important that everyone has respect and acceptance for people's choices. We have talked about this very thing, a number of times in other posts, but again, I think some people have missed the boat entirely, in favor of sticking to their guns and carrying on with remarks that are in most cases, not supported or based in fact, in other instances are insulting in my opinion, and denigrate, by association, other people and their food choices, and what they may or may not know about nutrition.

Fair question. Several reasons, I think -

1. Raw-based diets are still something most vets object to and the AVMA reject. They're not mainstream, so I want to make clear that I am ok with them.

2. Feeding dry food was condemned in the first post of this thread. I don't share that view, but wanted to make sure it's clear that in "defending" dry and canned, I am not in fact condemning the other option (usually homemade raw).

3. This is a "hot topic" so I guess I'm trying to make everyone feel comfortable and not offended by my views (as the site owner).

4. I am non-confrontational by nature and tend to be very diplomatic. I also come from a culture that's considered far more direct and abrupt (Israel), so I could be overcompensating there too

delilahndrew · Jul 3, 2014

Ive not read all of this but found it very interesting.
As a previous feeder of Raw, to my old huskies, I am very aware about the not so good side of commercial feeds for animals.

I now own two cats, one very healthy, loving friendly nearly 5 yr old Ginger female, and a very poorly 20wk old ginger female (unrelated)

My older cat , Drew , is self sufficient. She catches prey daily, she eats and enjoys them. I very very rarely supplement her diet, but if I do its usually meat, most often cooked though. I dont tell people this as it seems like cruelty, but if you met my cat you'd see shes the picture of health, and still very loving, not feral at all. She sleeps on the sofa all day and hunts all night, like a cat should!

My baby kitten Delilah was eating a tinned kitten food, she stumbled across some dry biscuits that were around for Drew, from when she was confined to the house following a fight injury.

I hate biscuits, long term, my mothers cat died of kidney problems, which I attribute to eating soley cat biscuits (kibble) his whole life so its not something I use often.

Baby Delilah swelled up all bloated and had severe diarrhea from eating these biscuits. She seemed ok again 2 days later, but lethargic. Then back came the bloating and severe diarrhea and 10 weeks later shes just got over an anal prolapse but cant stomach food or gain weight. The vets wanted to put her to sleep.
I told myself it wasnt the biscuits, it was coincidence, there was something else going on, but as time has gone by it seems she just has a defective gut, and needs TLC to improve. I blame the biscuits

I will NEVER give my cats dry food again

Delilah is moving onto meat broth then raw rabbit, in a hope to heal her gut, and probiotics.

oneandahalfcats · Jul 3, 2014

delilahNdrew said:
Ive not read all of this but found it very interesting.
As a previous feeder of Raw, to my old huskies, I am very aware about the not so good side of commercial feeds for animals.

I now own two cats, one very healthy, loving friendly nearly 5 yr old Ginger female, and a very poorly 20wk old ginger female (unrelated)

My older cat , Drew , is self sufficient. She catches prey daily, she eats and enjoys them. I very very rarely supplement her diet, but if I do its usually meat, most often cooked though. I dont tell people this as it seems like cruelty, but if you met my cat you'd see shes the picture of health, and still very loving, not feral at all. She sleeps on the sofa all day and hunts all night, like a cat should!

My baby kitten Delilah was eating a tinned kitten food, she stumbled across some dry biscuits that were around for Drew, from when she was confined to the house following a fight injury.

I hate biscuits, long term, my mothers cat died of kidney problems, which I attribute to eating soley cat biscuits (kibble) his whole life so its not something I use often.

Baby Delilah swelled up all bloated and had severe diarrhea from eating these biscuits. She seemed ok again 2 days later, but lethargic. Then back came the bloating and severe diarrhea and 10 weeks later shes just got over an anal prolapse but cant stomach food or gain weight. The vets wanted to put her to sleep.
I told myself it wasnt the biscuits, it was coincidence, there was something else going on, but as time has gone by it seems she just has a defective gut, and needs TLC to improve. I blame the biscuits

I will NEVER give my cats dry food again

Delilah is moving onto meat broth then raw rabbit, in a hope to heal her gut, and probiotics.

I am sorry to hear about your kitty's troubles. I am not familiar with the term 'biscuits', what is this, and what is it made of? I am a bit puzzled as to why you would feed biscuits if your previous animals were all on raw?

roguethecat · Jul 3, 2014

zoneout said:
Just wondering why you feed live prey. Do you show your cats at exhibitions?

nah, it's dead all right, killed humanely and immediately frozen, freshly thawed in my fridge. I feed it in addition to prey model because the Rogue is allergic to anything commercial and Oberon doesn't quite get the fact that anything without a head on is food. They also have so much fun making sure the critters are dead

I gave them a live mouse once to see how it goes, but had to rescue the poor thing after 5 minutes (soggy and bewildered from being carried around) and set it up in my garage thinking it'll escape outside soon. Only it turned out it hid in one of my Dad's white tennis shoes he left at his last visit, and sadly died uneaten inside... too bad I didn't see his face when he tried to put the shoe on yesterday

)

denice · Jul 3, 2014

I think cats always take a while to kill their prey. I have heard, don't know if it's true, but behaviorists believe that kitties instinct to do that is so they aren't hurt when they go in for the actual kill then feeding. The prey is so exhausted they won't be bitten.

delilahndrew · Jul 3, 2014

Cat biscuits, dry food, kibble , Same thing.

delilahndrew · Jul 3, 2014

I haven't raw fed my cats as they are indoors, my huskies were not, and they don't eat as much as husky dogs. Was worried about hygiene more than anything. But like I say, Drew is self sufficient, but Delilah, weighing 375g at 5 mths is unlikely to ever be let out doors, so intending on moving her onto raw, but with such small quantities its going to be difficult and time consuming.

delilahndrew · Jul 3, 2014

Drew brings back live prey, sometimes in the house... but usually outside. She chases it around and plays games with it before eventually, and I mean eventually! Eating it.
i don't disturb her, its natural. And stops the mice from coming in my house! I'm surrounded by shrub land/fields so plenty of food for her.
When she had kittens she brought back 5 rabbits in 24hrs.

andrya · Jul 3, 2014

delilahNdrew said:
I haven't raw fed my cats as they are indoors, my huskies were not, and they don't eat as much as husky dogs. Was worried about hygiene more than anything. But like I say, Drew is self sufficient, but Delilah, weighing 375g at 5 mths is unlikely to ever be let out doors, so intending on moving her onto raw, but with such small quantities its going to be difficult and time consuming.

We have a lot of information on how to correctly balance raw homemade cat food. We have links to sites for recipes, for both raw and home-cooked, and also a thread of recipes, tips, and info from our members who make their own cat food.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263751/cooked-recipes-thread

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272287/raw-recipe-thread

For Gods sake when will the madness end????

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