For Gods sake when will the madness end????

oneandahalfcats said:

Cats have evolved to eat a variety of foods. There is no pretense about this, it is a fact.

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Please, please provide a source for this information. Because *everything* about the cat indicates it is, in fact, an obligate carnivore. Not the panda-kind of carnivore, that is in the class carnivora, but has adapted to eat a completely different diet. Not the dog-kind of carnivore, that has adapted to eat a diet that can include grains, vegetables and fruit. The cat not only has a very high protein requirement, the cat has a limited pathway for digesting carbohydrates. They lack digestive enzymes to process ALA (an omega 3 fatty acid) into its usable components, EPA and DHA - vegetable sources of ALA (e.g. flax) are unusable to the cat. The same lack of enzyme means they cannot convert LA into AA (essential fatty acids). They need these preformed in the diet. They cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A. If fed pumpkin and carrot for vitamin A, a cat will develop a vitamin A deficiency. A dog will not.

In fact, the latest research using a standardized diet with a varying carb content, indicates that their instincts (or "preferences," if you prefer), indicate domestic cats have a carb threshold. We know that if fed a sufficient amount of calories to meet their energetic need, they have such a high protein need that if the right percentage of those calories are not from protein, they will rob their own muscles for it.

So.... what variety of foods? Cow, chicken, pig, lamb vs mouse, rabbit, blue jay? Or..... ?????

oneandahalfcats said:

There is no question that cats need high protein in their diet, and the best source of this is wet canned or raw. But this doesn't mean that cats can't also derive nutritional value from a bit of good quality dry food, and I think a bit of dry food is what most of us are referring to when it comes to feeding dry food. That said, if people want to play it safe and stay away from kibble, rather than taking the time to be informed to learn about the differences between good dry food and bad, then this is their choice I guess.

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I certainly do not claim that cats do not derive nutrition from dry food. Even poor quality dry food, if it has some nutrition in it. But I absolutely do not agree that "most of us" are referring to "a bit of dry food" in the diet. THIS discussion, as I understand it, is about vets not informing people of the need for moisture in a cat's diet, and letting them think that feeding an all dry diet is fine for a cat, with no discussion of protein needs, the impact of a high carb diet on a cat, and the importance of distinguishing between protein from grains vs from animal tissue.

Denice said:

 
This is purely anecdotal but I am older, 58 and grew up on a farm in a very rural area.  Pets didn't stay in the house, they had run of the place which means that cats and dogs when they were young enough caught meals to eat.  We also fed table scraps, didn't know any better and then we supplemented with cheap kibble.  Our dogs and cats lived long healthy lives.  Was it diet or running outside in fresh air doing what they were meant to do?  I don't know.

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I would think both....   being free to run outside (on a farm - not urban)  is good - excercise is important.  And undoubtedly the mixed diet helped (some scraps, some kibble, any unlucky mouse that happened in their path outside)

Yes I agree. We need to be educated as cat owners. I have a little kitten now and new questions start to arise every single day! this is why I'm here on the site! I need answers that some vets don't provide!

 Unfortunately most studies that just examine feeding dry vs wet and have never studied what happens if you add water to the dry food.

I feed my cats dry, but I always add an equal measure of water. If my cats get 1/4th cup of dry food, I add 1/4th cup of water on top.

As for the methionine issue, I have tried reading every paper I could find on google scholar on urinary issues.  I've read about environmental enrichment, reducing stress, trying pheromones, acidifying the food, magnesium/phos balance.

Unfortunately my cat has some unique medical issues.  He had urinary issues that started when he was a kitten, and have grown into cystitis. I wish I could blame the cat food, but I really feel it is something that is physically different about him.  They have studies showing that the adrenal glands are significantly smaller in cats with FIC than in healthy cats.

I have not had Pounce ultrasounded yet, but I suspect that may be what is wrong with him.  At this point the only way I have managed to get his urinary issues under control is to feed a diet with added methionine, and low mg/phos. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14634458

As far as feeding canned cat food, I emailed several companies and most do not have enough total methionine in the food for a cat like Pounce.  Some companies are at 0.6% methionine even in a high meat diet, vs 1.35% (evo and Natura foods). 

The type of meat we feed our cats is very important in controlling urinary issues.  It is not enough to look for high protein cat foods.

High methionine foods: (all of these are for one ounce of meat, all cooked)

 egg white:  112 mg methionine

Alaskan Halibut fish, cooked: 241 mg

 chicken breast: 271 mg

chicken thigh: 187mg

Tuna fish : 211

Turkey breast 244

Turkey thigh: 149

So if your cat were to eat 4 ounces of chicken breast per day, he would get 1084 mg of methionine per day.

If you fed your cat 4 ounces of turkey thighs, he would only get 596 mg of methionine per day.

Most cats with urinary issues need around 1000 mg of methionine in their diet, if not up to 1500 mg.

Obviously most cat foods do not use breast meat, thus additional methionine should be added. Some pet food companies (Halo for instance), do not add any methionine to the food.

I could not find any reference values for the amount of methionine in a mouse or rat. 

This is why I have an issue with the catinfo.org website. It is nice to suggest canned food with low magnesium content, but it does not mention the importance of the meat source used.

Obviously different cats have different needs (as far as methionine is concerned).

I know from my personal cat, I have to add 1000mg of methionine to his food each day (in tablets). He's on Nature's variety and it is low in methionine.
Only at that point does his urinary ph drop to around 6.3. 

Anne said:

The point I'm trying to make is that these processes can actually enhance the nutritional value of foods for the animal consuming it, replacing enzymes we may not have in the case of carbs, and generally destroying pathogens through denaturation. With protein, our bodies - or those of cats - couldn't care less about the original protein anyway. It will get broken down into its building blocks, amino acids, in the stomach whether or not you cook/process it first or not.

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But it's what needs to be done to it by the digestive system to turn into those building blocks that makes a difference - perhaps especially for a cat. Protein from animal tissue is not the same as corn gluten meal. If they were served up AS the amino acids, perhaps, but that is not the form in which they enter the cat's body.

And while processing certainly can enhance bioavailability, when it comes to extruded (kibble) vs cooked vs raw, the animal proteins are actually more bioavailable to cats when fed raw. http://www.2ndchance.info/homemadediets-Kerr2012.pdf

Kerr et al. 2012. Apparent total tract energy and macronutrient digestibility and fecal fermentative end-product concentrations of domestic cats fed extruded raw beef-based, and cooked beef-based diets, J Anim Sci 2012, 90:515-522.

Digestibility %

Extruded beef 78.2%
Cooked beef 83.8%
Raw beef 86.7%




Dr. Peterson, a very well-known animal endocrinologist, discusses the protein needs of senior cats (here http://endocrinevet.blogspot.no/2011/11/optimal-protein-requirements-for-older.html ). He discusses the issue of the biological values of proteins (it is referenced).

__________________

"It's very clear that not all proteins are created equal, especially when feeding an obligate carnivore, such as the cat (9,27). The biological value of a protein is a measure of that protein's ability to supply amino acids (especially the 11 essential amino acids) and to supply these amino acids in the proper proportions. It is well-established that animal proteins (e.g., meat, meat by-products) have a higher biological values than vegetable proteins (e.g., corn gluten meal, soybean meal, soy protein isolate).



In addition to biological value, protein digestibility is key — what good is a food with a higher protein content if the protein isn't also easy to digest? In the short digestive tract of cats, plant proteins are far less digestible than meat proteins. "


___________________


So..... amino acids may be amino acids. But they do come in a form / format that has to be broken down to get at those amino acids. :dk:


...And.... as Sarah Ann points out, the composition of the amino acids in those proteins can also make a difference - and they vary a great deal.

Dalya said:

 
Yes I agree. We need to be educated as cat owners. I have a little kitten now and new questions start to arise every single day! this is why I'm here on the site! I need answers that some vets don't provide!

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Welcome!!!!   Education by far is the most important thing as a cat owner.   The problem is there is a lot to learn!!!   And vets - even very experienced ones - will not always give you the information you need.   Either they do not know themselves - or they already assume you know it.   Therefore the more you study - the better questions you can ask the vet.   And the less intimidated you will be with medical jargon.  But MOST IMPORTANT you will equip yourself to see through the propaganda advertising by pet businesses that only want to sell you something.   

So please ask any questions you have.   The people here are VERY knowledgable - and if they don't have the answer they can steer you in the proper direction.  

Good luck with your little kitty.  What is her name??

Z

zoneout yes they are! I've noticed that i'm learning so much here.

My kitten's name is Dolce. He's only 9 weeks old. Very adorable!

Dalya said:

@zoneout yes they are! I've noticed that i'm learning so much here.

My kitten's name is Dolce. He's only 9 weeks old. Very adorable!

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   Very cute.   Viva Dolce!!!    

LDG said:

Please, please provide a source for this information. Because *everything* about the cat indicates it is, in fact, an obligate carnivore. Not the panda-kind of carnivore, that is in the class carnivora, but has adapted to eat a completely different diet. Not the dog-kind of carnivore, that has adapted to eat a diet that can include grains, vegetables and fruit. The cat not only has a very high protein requirement, the cat has a limited pathway for digesting carbohydrates. They lack digestive enzymes to process ALA (an omega 3 fatty acid) into its usable components, EPA and DHA - vegetable sources of ALA (e.g. flax) are unusable to the cat. The same lack of enzyme means they cannot convert LA into AA (essential fatty acids). They need these preformed in the diet. They cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A. If fed pumpkin and carrot for vitamin A, a cat will develop a vitamin A deficiency. A dog will not.

In fact, the latest research using a standardized diet with a varying carb content, indicates that their instincts (or "preferences," if you prefer), indicate domestic cats have a carb threshold. We know that if fed a sufficient amount of calories to meet their energetic need, they have such a high protein need that if the right percentage of those calories are not from protein, they will rob their own muscles for it.

So.... what variety of foods? Cow, chicken, pig, lamb vs mouse, rabbit, blue jay? Or..... ?????
 

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Well first of all, you are talking in terms of dry food fed as a complete diet that lacks sufficient protein to meet the requirements of an obligate carnivore.

I am coming from the perspective of dry food that contains, sufficient and in some cases, several meat protein sources thereby meeting protein requirements, but fed as part of a diet.

Cats ARE obligate carnivores, but this doesn't mean that they are not capable of digesting a certain amount of carbohydrates. Both cats and dogs produce amylases through the pancreas and intestinal tissues, thus facilitating the digestion of carbohydrates. Even cats in the wild consume about 5% of carbs. The difference being that domestic cats have a much longer digestive tract than wild cats, from years of domestication and changes to their diet. This further supports their evolution. This doesn't mean that cats should have a lot of carbs in their diet, just that they can process carbs and utilize the energy from them. From a fiber perspective, some cats NEED carbohydrates in order to maintain regularity.

The difference between a bag of SD dry cat food and Nature's Variety Instinct, is worlds apart. SD (as one example) contains a LOT of complex carbohydrates in the form of corn, wheat, barley, etc, and negligible meat. The NV contains zero grains, maybe two carbs in the whole recipe, and a high concentration (83%) of muscle meat protein source. You cannot honestly suggest that the NV should be classified in the same class and category as other dry foods when the information supports that it meets protein requirements, and exceeds other dry food brands in featuring low carbohydrate content. Orijen is another dry food made here in Canada. The cat formulas of which there are only three, feature 7+ muscle meat protein sources as first ingredients. No by-products. There are some carbs in this food, but none of these are grain-based. These comparisons represent the difference between empty calories and food that can actually provide some decent nutritional value.

LDG said:

I certainly do not claim that cats do not derive nutrition from dry food. Even poor quality dry food, if it has some nutrition in it.

But I absolutely do not agree that "most of us" are referring to "a bit of dry food" in the diet. THIS discussion, as I understand it, is about vets not informing people of the need for moisture in a cat's diet, and letting them think that feeding an all dry diet is fine for a cat, with no discussion of protein needs, the impact of a high carb diet on a cat, and the importance of distinguishing between protein from grains vs from animal tissue.

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When I said 'most of us', I am referring to those who feed a bit of dry food. As far as the theme for this discussion, the OP spoke of many things regarding the subject of dry food, one of which mentioned 'vets' as mouthpieces for pet food conglomerates. Beyond this, I'd say the focus has been wide open.

oneandahalfcats said:

Well first of all, you are talking in terms of dry food fed as a complete diet that lacks sufficient protein to meet the requirements of an obligate carnivore.
I am coming from the perspective of dry food that contains, sufficient and in some cases, several meat protein sources thereby meeting protein requirements, but fed as part of a diet.

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:dk: No - that's not the issue. I simply asked you to provide the reference for your statement that "Cats have evolved to eat a variety of foods."

Being able to digest some carbs as an obligate carnivore, IMO, is not "evolving to eat a variety of foods." :dk: And, quite frankly, I'm still wondering what you mean by this statement.

oneandahalfcats said:

Cats ARE obligate carnivores, but this doesn't mean that they are not capable of digesting a certain amount of carbohydrates.

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:nod: Correct. I don't think anyone disputes this....

oneandahalfcats said:

Even cats in the wild consume about 5% of carbs. The difference being that domestic cats have a much longer digestive tract than wild cats, from years of domestication and changes to their diet. This further supports their evolution.

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Can you please provide a reference for this? This is interesting, if true.

(And the amount of carbs, on a dry matter basis, was found to be 2.8%, none of which was starch - based on a meta-analysis of feral domestic cat diet studies - where the cats had access to less than 5% of their diet as human garbage. On an energy basis, it was just 2% of the diet).

oneandahalfcats said:

From a fiber perspective, some cats NEED carbohydrates in order to maintain regularity.

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Though I do think it is important to distinguish between wild cats eating an all prey diet and domesticated cats being fed a potentially species-inappropriate diet. The need for fiber .... we have no idea if that is solely a man-made creation or not. So this statement is just ... moot.

oneandahalfcats said:

The difference between a bag of SD dry cat food and Nature's Variety Instinct, is worlds apart. SD (as one example) contains a LOT of complex carbohydrates in the form of corn, wheat, barley, etc, and negligible meat. The NV contains zero grains, maybe two carbs in the whole recipe, and a high concentration (83%) of muscle meat protein source. You cannot honestly suggest that the NV should be classified in the same class and category as other dry foods when the information supports that it meets protein requirements, and exceeds other dry food brands in featuring low carbohydrate content. Orijen is another dry food made here in Canada. The cat formulas of which there are only three, feature 7+ muscle meat protein sources as first ingredients. No by-products. There are some carbs in this food, but none of these are grain-based. These comparisons represent the difference between empty calories and food that can actually provide some decent nutritional value.

Click to expand...

I've never suggested any such thing (that all kibble is the same quality). :dk:


That said, it is my personal belief, after the research I have done, that dry food, as a category, is species-inappropriate. And to the extent that I want my cats to eat a minimally processed diet, yes, extruded food is extruded food. It contains rendered ingredients that are then formed and baked and sprayed with more rendered fats. This is universal.

I so love this discussion!

from my guys' point of view: if given small prey like mice and small rats, they eat the whole thing with gusto, but with larger rats they don't eat the stomach (with is filled with corn). Just putting in my few cents worth

roguethecat said:

 
I so love this discussion!

from my guys' point of view: if given small prey like mice and small rats, they eat the whole thing with gusto, but with larger rats they don't eat the stomach (with is filled with corn). Just putting in my few cents worth

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That's a good point.  When wild animals would get my chickens, the choicier stuff was breasts and anything in the thoracic cavity.  Granted I'm talking about bobcat, coyote, possums, and raccoons, but still...cats have to eat and run sometimes so I can see similarities there.

I watch a lot of the nature shows on Nat Geo Wild.  The first thing a cougar will do is lick up the blood from the body cavity, I know it's a bit gory.  A cougar will cache his kill but if anything is left after 2 or 3 days, provided he is allowed to eat that long, he will abandon the rest.   The theory is that a cougar won't eat meat that is too old.

oneandahalfcats said:

The difference being that domestic cats have a much longer digestive tract than wild cats, from years of domestication and changes to their diet.

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I wanted to circle back to this. I found a reference. Well - sort of. We know now definitively that the domestic cat is basically genetically identical to the African Wildcat, so comparing them to any other wild species doesn't mean anything. This is noted in the reference I found. Book: The Carnivores, by R. F. Ewer (Cornell University Press, 1998 - originally published 1973).

http://books.google.com/books?id=IE...=length of intestines African Wildcat&f=false

"The Felidae, the most advanced fully carnivorous family, show a correspondingly advanced type of gut structure: the caecum, although present, is small and the hind gut is short with virtually no distinction between colon and rectum. The fact that the gut of the domestic cat is significantly longer than that of the European wildcat may represent a secondary adaptation of the former to the more varied diet it receives in its association with man. It would, however, be desirable also to have comparative figures for the African wildcat, usually regarded as ancestral to the domestic cat, before accepting this conclusion." p. 115

The problem? The length of the gut apparently isn't a sign of "evoluation." It is an adaptation, and it can happen within one lifespan. Are you familiar with the Pottenger cats? If so, I'd like to say that this is not a study I like to reference. The cat's need for taurine was not known, and at least some of the deficiencies noted in the raw vs cooked-fed cats can potentially be attributed to the lack of taurine supplementation (though the diets should have had plenty, even cooked). But it is, nonetheless, a fascinating read as everything was so meticulously documented. He studied hundreds of cats over a 10 year period, through multiple generations.

Notably,

"The intestinal tracts of the allergic cats prove particularly remarkable at autopsy. Measurements of the length of the gastrointestinal tracts of several hundred normal and deficient adult cats are compared. The measurement starts at the epiglottis and includes the esophagus, the stomach, duodenum, jeunum and the colon to the rectum. In the average normal cat, the intestinal tract is approximately 48 inches long; in some of the allergic cats, the intestinal tracts measure as long as 72 to 80 inches. These elongated tracts lack tissue tone and elasticity." (p. 35) Pottenter's Cats: A study in nutrition. Francis M. Pottenger, Jr., MD 2nd ed 2012 (originally published 1983, though the studies were conducted from 1932 to 1942). Sorry - I couldn't find it on google books. I have the book.

So I'm going to have to say, based on this knowledge, that the length of the digestive tract isn't an indication of what a cat *should* eat - but, rather, merely reflects what it *does* eat. It is, I think, more likely that changes in enzymatic activity would be indicative of evolution. And cats, based on current studies, have not developed new pathways of digesting carbs, nor the ability to convert LA to AA, &etc. Of course, I'm no biologist or geneticist or physicist, or any "ist." ETA: ooops, I take that back. I'm sort of an "ist." Rather, I'm an "yst." I'm an analyst. My area of professional work, however, is financial, not biological or physical. (...but the "anal" fits. ).

LDG said:

No - that's not the issue. I simply asked you to provide the reference for your statement that "Cats have evolved to eat a variety of foods."

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Okay, then by that argument, human prepared raw food is not the same as raw whole prey that a cat would kill. Its not a fresh kill, it doesn't have the same temperature, and it doesn't contain all of the same or equal parts to a prey animal? There is no scientific data that supports that a raw diet is better for a cat than any other, given all of the domestication that has taken place. For some cats in particular, it might even be life threatening. Case in point, a study was conducted by UC Davis on the Health of Feline Intestinal Tract and IBD :

"Although it appeared that the raw rabbit diet was significantly beneficial for the stool quality and appearance of health in the cats, the sudden  and rapidly fatal illness of one of the cats that were fed the raw rabbit diet for 10 months was chilling and unexpected. The affected cat was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy due to a severe taurine deficiency. Moreover, 70% of the remaining raw rabbit diet fed cats, which appeared outwardly healthy, also had heart muscle changes compatible with taurine deficiency and could have developed heart failure if continued on our raw rabbit diet. For the remaining three months of the study, the raw rabbit diet was supplemented with taurine and the study continued".

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline health_Glasgow.pdf

oneandahalfcats said:

This is definitely not moot, particularly for cat carers who have cats who are struggling with constipation.

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:lol3: Of course! If a cat has a damaged GI system and thus lack of motility, fiber may be critical. But that takes my point completely out-of-context. You're claiming that cats have adapted to a new diet, and may "need" fiber. I was pointing out that if we didn't damage their intestines with inappropriate food, they don't.

As to the Darwin comment by Driscoll - we have no idea what cats Darwin used for the comparison. As was pointed out in the reference I found, the only comparison that is worth anything is to the African wildcat. And I haven't found that information.

As to all kibble being the same quality - I'm missing your point. Kibble is kibble - the manufacturing process is the same whether it is NV or supermarket brand X. The nutritional content and quality of ingredients will vary, of course. To me, I don't care. I have no interest in feeding kibble having learned about the differences in cat foods. If someone wants to feed kibble, I will help them choose between A and B based on macronutrient content and ingredients. Within the category of food, of course there are "better" and "worse" choices to be made if one is going to feed it. ...But I will encourage someone to learn about alternatives to feeding kibble at all. :dk:

oneandahalfcats said:

Okay, then by that argument, human prepared raw food is not the same as raw whole prey that a cat would kill. Its not a fresh kill, it doesn't have the same temperature, and it doesn't contain all of the same or equal parts to a prey animal?

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Absolutely true. I've made these same statements. Many times. And?

oneandahalfcats said:

There is no scientific data that supports that a raw diet is better for a cat than any other, given all of the domestication that has taken place. For some cats in particular, it might even be life threatening. Case in point, a study was conducted by UC Davis on the Health of Feline Intestinal Tract and IBD :

Although it appeared that the raw rabbit diet was significantly beneficial for the stool quality and appearance of health in the cats, the sudden  and rapidly fatal illness of one of the cats that were fed the raw rabbit diet for 10 months was chilling and unexpected. The affected cat was diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy due to a severe taurine deficiency. Moreover, 70% of the remaining raw rabbit diet fed cats, which appeared outwardly healthy, also had heart muscle changes compatible with taurine deficiency and could have developed heart failure if continued on our raw rabbit diet. For the remaining three months of the study, the raw rabbit diet was supplemented with taurine and the study continued".

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And THIS is exactly why homemade food should not be fed if it is not going to be properly balanced. That study is such a shame, because obviously they consulted no raw feeders in attempting to design their "gold standard diet." (What hubris! And that poor cat paid with its life. ) I know of NO raw feeders that feed ground without supplementing.

On this, we are absolutely in agreement. Improperly balanced homemade food should NOT be fed. Better to feed any commercial food than homemade food done wrong.

Anne said:

 
@MeowKittyMeow  here's a link to Laurie's excellent article about increasing water intake in cats - 

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/tips-to-increase-your-cat-s-water-intake

We could probably thrive on raw meat, along with some fruit and insects, as well (some people swear by raw food, and I know some do take it to the extreme of raw meat too). 

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Yum....  sushi anyone???

LDG said:

The problem? The length of the gut apparently isn't a sign of "evoluation." It is an adaptation, and it can happen within one lifespan. Are you familiar with the Pottenger cats? If so, I'd like to say that this is not a study I like to reference. The cat's need for taurine was not known, and at least some of the deficiencies noted in the raw vs cooked-fed cats can potentially be attributed to the lack of taurine supplementation (though the diets should have had plenty, even cooked). But it is, nonetheless, a fascinating read as everything was so meticulously documented. He studied hundreds of cats over a 10 year period, through multiple generations.
 

Click to expand...

Well, evolution in its literal sense is the process of change and development, which can take any form?

I am familiar with Pottenger's studies, but personally I think it was a lot of bunk. Very little was known of nutrition back in the 1930s which supports the fact that people fed pets whatever they had to spare. As for Pottengers 'science' it was not very scientific, there was no consistency or control over food sources used. For this reason, I highly doubt much of it would hold up today.

LDG said:

As to all kibble being the same quality - I'm missing your point. Kibble is kibble - the manufacturing process is the same whether it is NV or supermarket brand X. The nutritional content and quality of ingredients will vary, of course. To me, I don't care. I have no interest in feeding kibble having learned about the differences in cat foods. If someone wants to feed kibble, I will help them choose between A and B based on macronutrient content and ingredients. Within the category of food, of course there are "better" and "worse" choices to be made if one is going to feed it. ...But I will encourage someone to learn about alternatives to feeding kibble at all.

Click to expand...

LDG said:

Of course! If a cat has a damaged GI system and thus lack of motility, fiber may be critical. But that takes my point completely out-of-context. You're claiming that cats have adapted to a new diet, and may "need" fiber. I was pointing out that if we didn't damage their intestines with inappropriate food, they don't.

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Nothing taken out of context, I didn't agree with the statement or see the relevance? Fiber is a necessary thing for some cats. 

oneandahalfcats said:

Nothing taken out of context, I didn't agree with the statement or see the relevance? Fiber is a necessary thing for some cats. 

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Fiber *becomes* a necessary thing for some cats.

As to the kibble - OK. Some manufacturing processes are better than others. Some ingredients are better than others. It doesn't change the fact that the category of food is made from rendered ingredients, extruded, baked, sprayed with fats, and on average 10% moisture. :dk: