Siberian Cats - Health Issues, Inbreeding

scarlett68

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Hi.

I have a wonderful Siberian cat who is not even 4, yet has very serious health conditions. I am approaching a point with her where I may have to make some sad decisions. 

I know that I cannot live without a kitty. I love her so much and will just be miserable when she is no longer with me. I am very allergic and asthmatic to cats, so I chose the Siberian for its lower allergen qualities, and I have had great success with my cat. 

The problem is - I feel very confident that my poor cat is the victim of inbreeding, resulting in her having two life-threatening conditions associated with Siberians. Thus, I have discussed with my vet trying to find a good breeder for when I want to buy a new kitten. During this discussion, she advised me that she treats numerous Siberians and that about 85+% have significant health issues. She's advised that many of the ones she has treated have died at 6 or 7. This shocked me, as I had always read that Siberians are a very healthy breed.

I am wondering if others are having similar issues with their Siberians, or if they are living long (12+ years) and healthy lives. 

Thanks,
 

laralove

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Hi and welcome to TCS. I'm sorry your cat is unwell and you're having to deal with these decisions. I have no experience with Siberians, but hopefully someone who does will see this and have some information for you. 
 

denice

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I am sorry your kitty is so sick.  To be honest I didn't realize that they were prone to several hereditary illnesses until I looked it up.  It's really sad that a kitty that tends to be good for people with allergies is prone to so many illnesses.  

I don't know much at all about purebreds.  You might want to post in the breeding forum http://www.thecatsite.com/f/7/showing-and-ethical-breeding.  Someone there may be able to give you some tips on find a responsible breeder.  I know that a knowledgeable responsible breeder is able to avoid at least some of the genetic issues found in a breed.
 
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scarlett68

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Thank you! I hope so too. OK, I will
 
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scarlett68

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 You might want to post in the breeding forum http://www.thecatsite.com/f/7/showing-and-ethical-breeding.  Someone there may be able to give you some tips on find a responsible breeder.  I know that a knowledgeable responsible breeder is able to avoid at least some of the genetic issues found in a breed.
Hi Denice. I just tried to post at showing and ethical breeding, but it says I need 20+ posts before I can post there.
 

denice

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Hi Denice. I just tried to post at showing and ethical breeding, but it says I need 20+ posts before I can post there.
I am sorry I forgot about that.  They have that requirement because some people join just so they can bash breeding even if it's responsible breeding.  I will see if I can find something for you.
 

denice

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I went through two pages of breeders on the internet and I only saw two hopefuls that I think might be good breeders.  I am by no means an expert but both of them tested their breeding cats for the genetic heart and kidney issues.  One also had an ultrasound done before breeding them.

I noticed a big thing that some of them were using as a catch phrase so people would look at their site is the claim that Siberians are hypoallergenic.  I personally would stay away from a breeder that even uses that term.  I know that Siberians are less likely to trigger an allergic reaction but they aren't hypoallergenic.  I don't like a breeder who makes false statements to sell kittens, makes me wander about what else they are lying about.
 
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artem

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The best breeders run genetic tests before pairing to prevent or reduce the risk in disease. Perhaps search for such a breeder of Siberians.
Yep, this. I chose my breeder because she tested all her breeding cats and kittens with UC Davis. With randombreds it's kind of a crapshoot. There can also be inbreeding amongst ferals, as feral toms will mate with their own mothers, sisters or daughters if they are in heat. Many moggies are perfectly healthy but just read around this forum for examples of ones that aren't. It's part of the risk of getting any cat. Purebred cats, particularly of certain breeds, are more prone to certain issues but there's never a guarantee of health. And it's nothing compared to purebred dogs, some of whom are practically guaranteed to have a life-threatening genetic condition.

I've owned three purebred animals in my life (the dogs while I was living with my parents). Of my two dogs, one died at 10 from a condition common to her breed but she was healthy for most of her life and that's about the life expectancy for a dog her size anyway. We got another of the same breed as we had been very happy with her and she is still fairly healthy and turning ten next month. She probably will develop something in the next few years, just because she is at the age where things start breaking, but she's no less healthy than most other dogs her size and age. She has a few chronic issues but nothing major so far and nothing particularly unusual. Hunter is just a kitten so he has lots of time to develop something but he is healthy as a horse so far and actually healthier than a friend's moggie of the same age. Her kitten needs a special diet already, while Hunter's fine with pretty much anything. I don't even bother slowly introducing new foods any more as he hasn't had a problem since he adjusted to the wet food and he enjoys trying new dishes
 
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scarlett68

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Thank you for your interest in my inquiry. I bought my poor kitty from a breeder who claimed that she never sells sick cats, only to have her be sick when I received her. The breeder then denied that she was sick, but the vet said she was. She recovered but had such a bad ear infection that would not go away that she eventually developed a polyp that grew from her middle ear and had to be cut out of her eardrum.

Then, 18 months ago I find out she has cardiomyopathy. Of course the breeder claimed that she screens for it. So I contacted her and she said yes she does check - no idea why she has it. Since I don't believe her anyway after delivering a sick cat to me and denying that she's sick, I mostly did it so she might contact and warn the other owners of cats from the litter. Now, the poor cat has developed such bad inflammatory bowel disease that the vet has determined it is cancerous. The poor cat is not even 4 and she has had so many illnesses, it is heartbreaking.

I know that sooner than later she will be gone, so I figured now is the time to try to find a responsible breeder, because I will not want to have no kitty Having been burned, I am going to be really careful and find someone good, but how does one do that? I sort of suspect that the really, really good breeders don't even have much of an internet presence because they sell their cats by word of mouth, but I don't know if that is correct. I agree that the best breeders are the ones who test, but I think a person can claim that they test even when they don't. So it comes back to needing to learn from those who know.

Any suggestions as to how to find breeders that are considered the best in the business would be much appreciated. I can afford to be put on a waiting list for a cat because my cat is still alive and being treated. Has anyone ever found this info from cat shows, when they come around? 

Thanks, Anne
 

chloe92us

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When it comes to purebred cats, the biggest requirement for me is that they show their cats in shows. That, at a minimum, means they are actively trying to breed to the type and breed for quality. If they do show, you'll know it from their website. If the breeding stock has GCH or other titles in front of their names, that is also an indication they show. Look at the regional Siberian cat club websites. There should be a breeder referral there. Then start researching. Check out their Facebook pages. Google the breeders name and cattery name and see what comes up. If they advertise on any of the cat/dog sites like hoobly etc, they are probably not reputable, as you say they don't have to advertise much.
 

denice

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You can go to a cat show.  Both TICA and CFA recognize the Siberian breed so chances are good there will be Siberian breeders there.   http://www.tica.org/public/calendar.php  is the TICA schedule   http://www.catshows.us/   is the CFA schedule

Shows are usually two days and there is usually a small entrance fee.  Often the fee is waived when someone brings some kitty food to be donated to a shelter.  

I think most breeders are pretty open to talking about their kitties.  Of course there are some etiquette rules like not petting the kitties unless the breeder ask if you want to, I don't think they make that offer very often because they are afraid of diseases.  
 

artem

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You've gotten plenty of good advice already, but I'm going to post my take too, as I have a slightly different perspective. I don't breed or show and was mostly getting a pedigree for the comfort of a close family member who had a couple of bad experiences with shelter pets and asked me to go through a breeder rather than rescuing. I agreed, as I have no moral objection to responsible breeding, and think that it is important to have an additional source of healthy, socialized kittens as rescuing is not for everyone. My biggest priorities were health, temperament and a contract I felt comfortable signing. My kitten is certainly pet quality but came to me in excellent condition. He had a clean bill of health from both my vet and the breeder's, was solid on his litterbox training and knew how and when to inhibit his bite and sheath his claws. He even had his nails trimmed! He was a little small for his age, but caught up quickly once I switched his diet. I suspect he didn't care for the food the breeder was feeding, but it was actually better quality than I'd been expecting and a good compromise between price and quality. I am not going to tell you how to find a show quality Siberian, although the best way is to go to cat shows, but hopefully I can help you find a healthy one. I got lucky and got a very well-socialized and pretty darn great kitten as well, but I was prepared to work through many more issues than I actually had.

My number one advice is to try and find breeders who do health testing through an impartial, reputable source. For genetic testing, look for a breeder going through a university (I think UC Davis is the big one for cats but there may be others that are fine as well and, if Siberians are prone to anything that can be caught by genetic screening, this is a really easy step for the breeder to take). For general health checks, see if you can get in touch with their vet. My kitten came with paperwork from a vet certifying he'd been examined and deemed healthy, dewormed and had his first vaccinations and when I called the office, they confirmed that they had tested and vaccinated the kitten in question. He also came with a health guarantee for one year and we were instructed to have our own vet check him as soon as possible to confirm he was in good health.

In terms of finding a breeder, we actually did just find one online but we did our research and made a checklist of requirements:
Health guarantee
Spay/neuter agreement
Genetic screening for HCM which ragdolls are prone to
Does not sell kittens under 10 weeks old
Raises kittens underfoot
Will take back the cat at any time and rehome him herself
All kittens registered with TICA and/or CFA

As you've already been told, the best place to find a breeder is probably through a cat association, either CFA or TICA (most breeds can be registered in either but some newer breeds are TICA only and depending on the breed one or the other may be preferred. Either should be fine for your purposes). I actually don't care all that much if they show, as I'm just looking for a healthy, well-socialized pet but if they don't, I look at their breeding stock to make sure they match the standard closely enough I can't tell the difference (I'm just an amateur, but was able to weed out quite a few breeders that way and there are plenty of show breeders I would refuse to work with as they do not raise their kittens underfoot). The breeder I ended up going with did not show, but some of her kittens had done quite well and earned titles and none of breeding cats had obvious faults. If you're not comfortable going off the internet after last time, attending a cat show is a good way of finding a breeder you are comfortable working with. And please feel free to be pickier than I was! I'm on the looser end with everything but health and was willing to take a few chances in return for getting a contract I could live with, as I am not looking for a breeder to be a third voice in future care decisions and many of the best breeders wish to retain more control than I am comfortable with. Judging by your post, however, you probably want a more involved breeder than I did and I suspect I am a somewhat unusual purebred buyer, at least for this forum, in that I really was not looking to build a relationship with the person I got my cat from. I was also looking for a single kitten and do feed some kibble while I work, which limited my choices a bit but I did not have to compromise on anything I cared about. It would be safer to use a show breeder and to find someone who matches you with the cats by personality in terms of avoiding behavioral problems, but I'd place a premium on the health screening, as I actually did find a few pretty strict breeders with very thorough contracts who did not do any genetic testing or who did their own vaccinations. Oh, and depending on whether or not you wish to feed raw, you may wish to work with (or avoid) breeders who raise their kittens on a raw diet. The best thing to do is just to read through the contract and make sure their expectations are the same as yours.
 
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scarlett68

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Well, I really appreciate all the advice. I see there's a TICA show in Largo FL in August. That may be a really good place to chat with some Siberian breeders. At least it's a great starting point.

Thanks!!!
 

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I have huge concerns with a vet that would suggest any one breed will only live to a certain age. I think that's reckless. I have a Siberian and while they can have a higher rate of an enlarged heart, it's only 1-2% above the general population.
Inbreeding can be a problem in any breeding program, in any breed.
I have a Siberian. She's healthy. I expect it to remain that way.
Why haven't you gone back to the original breeder? I'd sue for medical expenses.
Also, the CFA states that in ethical breeding programs, some distant inbreeding is allowed to keep bloodlines pure or to promote a certain, likeable trait. Anyway, I'm sorry this happened to you but, with any pedigreed animal, you have to weigh the odds.
 
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scarlett68

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My vet didn't say they all are going to die at a certain age, she just said that she had treated voluminous amounts of sick Siberians who were very ill or died young. I have been in touch with a couple of breeders who made the interesting suggestion that she may be seeing many cats from the same breeder and that's why she may have that observation (although mine was from a neighboring state).

How old is you Siberian? If you don't mind, can you PM me and advise who your breeder was?

Thanks,
 

denice

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My vet didn't say they all are going to die at a certain age, she just said that she had treated voluminous amounts of sick Siberians who were very ill or died young. I have been in touch with a couple of breeders who made the interesting suggestion that she may be seeing many cats from the same breeder and that's why she may have that observation (although mine was from a neighboring state).

How old is you Siberian? If you don't mind, can you PM me and advise who your breeder was?

Thanks,
If this suggestion is true it is scary.  I know the breeder that you got your kitty from has had several top winning cats.  I know that among dog breeders some of them get so caught up in breeding dogs that meet the standard that they forget about breeding healthy dogs.  Unfortunately for those of us that aren't part of the breeders world it makes it really difficult to find a good breeder as far as health goes.  One of the things we look for as a "sign" of a good breeder is having had several top ranked kitties.
 
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scarlett68

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If this suggestion is true it is scary.  I know the breeder that you got your kitty from has had several top winning cats.  I know that among dog breeders some of them get so caught up in breeding dogs that meet the standard that they forget about breeding healthy dogs.  Unfortunately for those of us that aren't part of the breeders world it makes it really difficult to find a good breeder as far as health goes.  One of the things we look for as a "sign" of a good breeder is having had several top ranked kitties.
Yes, it is scary. I agree that you want breeders with top ranked kitties. I also believe, though, that some breeders breed for looks and less for health. The award winning cats may look great, but if they happen to have something difficult within their lines and yet they keep being bred because they look good or are from championship lines, that can be a problem.

Denice - I have taken your advice and am looking specifically for people who test for HCM and PKD - but as saying you test is not proof of testing, I am also making sure that whoever I go with will be open to providing their test results and the veterinary visit results. I feel that breeders who push you back when you ask for that information are cause for concern - at least that is my experience and so I will be only interested in those who are open to sharing their tests and vet visit records. Unfortunately it does not appear that I will find any of them in my regional area.
 
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scarlett68

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I have been in touch with a couple of breeders who made the interesting suggestion that she may be seeing many cats from the same breeder and that's why she may have that observation (although mine was from a neighboring state).
To clarify this, my vet may be seeing cats from a breeder or two within my state. However, the breeder I bought from was in a neighboring state. In terms of my situation, unless my breeder and these local breeders are selling cats to each other, there is obviously some issue with Siberians and intestinal disease and cancer, as my vet noted a great deal of such disease in the Siberians she treated. She did also mention serious illness/deaths from HCM and kidney disease, but seemed to most notice the intestinal disease that I am currently dealing with.
 
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