Apple Cider Vinegar and cats

I gotcha.  I think I confused the issues as the thread progressed.  Either way, it sounds like it may be worth a try for Mazy and I'd be interested in hearing if her urine pH changes any.  Of course, her reaction after eating certainly sounds positive!

I, too, have read that ACV is used as a weight loss aid in humans and can help curb appetite. Not sure how this might affect cats. Like @Quiet , I have searched for studies or articles written by vets or vet schools, but to no avail. @otto, like you said, they don't make money suggesting ACV. I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that it is a holistic remedy and professionals are hesitant to make health claims without scientific evidence. 

ACV has many wonderful properties and is used to treat a wide variety of conditions. I have used ACV to treat feline chin acne and minor/mild cases of a watery, squinty eye due to FHV by applying diluted ACV between the shoulder blades. I, personally, do not give ACV to my cats internally. I tried it for a time a few years ago, but ended up discontinuing it upon further reading about how the acidity might affect urine and saliva and possibly aggravate the mouth, teeth enamel, esophagus, and stomach. My cats do not have urinary issues and I didn't want to create any. It was too much of a challenge, anyway, getting them to eat their wet food with ACV in it. Even a tiny amount smells and tastes SO strong and I'm not a fan of putting things in my cats' water. Anyway, that's my experience with it for the cats.

I tried to take ACV for myself (Braggs brand). I diluted it with water and added raw honey, but it still made my throat burn and gave me a slight feeling of nausea. It was very uncomfortable for me, so I stopped. But I do still use it externally for all kinds of things.

As far as Mazy's digestion goes, have you considered digestive enzymes? Might help take the work load off.

If you're going to give the ACV, I wouldn't give it within three hours of the probiotic. ACV has antibacterial and anti-viral properties and you wouldn't want it wiping out the beneficial bacteria in the probiotic.

doh!     Sorry I missed the mention of the probiotic.

It does sound like it may be a bile/bilirubin (gallbladder, bile duct) or perhaps pancreatic related issue, but without more detailed testing it's hard to be sure.

It seems like you are treating symptoms without addressing the underlying problem.

Still, sometimes that's our only option.  If the ACV seems to be helping, then I'd say roll with it.

Karen Becker, DVM uses ACV when making bone broth as I mentioned above, as one reference from an individual with initials after her name

It doesn't really surprise me that there aren't a lot of 'official' references to ACV as a holistic remedy for cats, just as there aren't many for things like Slippery Elm for diarrhea or constipation or Vitamin C to acidify a cat's urine, but we know that these things work. I think ACV would be a fine addition if the problem is digestive in nature, but then probiotics are usually the go-to solution here. If my kitty was sitting crouched after a meal, I would suspect that she might be experiencing cramping or discomfort after eating, but if Mazy is getting SEB, then this should be preventing such things. The crouching may be a coincidence, or something significant. You will have a better idea here. The amount of SEB that Mazy is getting is a really small amount. I was giving Max a 1/2 tsp with each morning meal. Plus everyone gets probiotics as well.

Regarding probiotics, depending on what you are using now Otto, you may want to look into trying a different one or increasing the amount of CFU to see if this can make a difference in Mazy's digestion. I use Natural Factors Double Strength which has 10 billion CFU. I know the regular NF only has 5 billion. Sometimes increasing the amount or trying a different one, can make a difference.

Thank you goholistic . I did try digestive enzymes about 18 months ago, for 6 months. There was no improvement in Mazy cat's regurgitation issue, and in fact she became very quiet and listless. When I took her off the Prozyme, her normal cheerful active personality gradually came back.

Your point about the dental enamel and her esophagus are things I am also concerned about.

Furmonster Mom said:

doh!  :doh3:    Sorry I missed the mention of the probiotic.

It does sound like it may be a bile/bilirubin (gallbladder, bile duct) or perhaps pancreatic related issue, but without more detailed testing it's hard to be sure.
It seems like you are treating symptoms without addressing the underlying problem.
Still, sometimes that's our only option.  If the ACV seems to be helping, then I'd say roll with it.

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FMM, the thing is, she doesn't worsen. If this was some dire condition, she would get progressively worse, don't you think? My vet has ruled out, to her own satisfaction, any pancreatic issue. She also does not think Mazy is suffering from IBD (nor do I).

I don't know about gall bladder issues, something I will have to read up on, first time anyone ever mentioned anything like that. Thank you for bringing it up. Her bloodwork is normal.

Mazy never loses weight, never has a loss of appetite,she has a lovely soft thick full coat, bright dry clear eyes and is very active for a ten year old cat. Her bowel movements are regular and normal, her urine output is consistent with her wet/raw diet. Her breath is not bad.

Her only problem remains periodic regurgitation, and, possibly, stomach aches after eating. The underlying problem, at this point, has been diagnosed as poor motility.

.

oneandahalfcats said:

Karen Becker, DVM uses ACV when making bone broth as I mentioned above, as one reference from an individual with initials after her name

It doesn't really surprise me that there aren't a lot of 'official' references to ACV as a holistic remedy for cats, just as there aren't many for things like Slippery Elm for diarrhea or constipation or Vitamin C to acidify a cat's urine, but we know that these things work. I think ACV would be a fine addition if the problem is digestive in nature, but then probiotics are usually the go-to solution here. If my kitty was sitting crouched after a meal, I would suspect that she might be experiencing cramping or discomfort after eating, but if Mazy is getting SEB, then cramping should be preventing such things. The crouching may be a coincidence, or something significant. You will have a better idea here. The amount of SEB that Mazy is getting is a really small amount. I was giving Max a 1/2 tsp with each morning meal. Plus everyone gets probiotics as well.

Regarding probiotics, depending on what you are using now Otto, you may want to look into trying a different one or increasing the amount of CFU to see if this can make a difference in Mazy's digestion. I use Natural Factors Double Strength which has 10 billion CFU. I know the regular NF only has 5 billion. Sometimes increasing the amount or trying a different one, can make a difference.

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I use ACV in my own soup stock too, and I have the recipe for bone broth saved. I use the NF double strenght for the other two cats but Mazy was unable to tolerate it. She takes ProViable DC at night and NutriCology S. Boulardi in the morning. The S. Boulardi is a relatively new development, she has been taking it about 3 weeks, and is not yet up to a full capsule.

The SEB meal is taken mid-day. I kept it at 1/8 tsp because when I was giving 1/4 tsp she had huge stools. Megacolon is not something I want to cause!

oneandahalfcats said:

Hi @otto
:  I don't have much time for a detailed reply today, but the linked article below will provide you with a bit of information about benefits of ACV, some info on dosages, etc.

I was looking at ACV as a remedy for constipation at one point, as I had read that it can be effective in getting things going. I currently use diluted ACV as a spot-on flea treatment for my cats.

ACV can be quite potent, so dosage will be important depending on what you are interested in using it for.  In addition as you are probably aware, you should always use organic ACV such as Braggs.

Here is the article : http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.ca/2013/02/apple-cider-is-good-for-your-dog-and.html

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Forgot to tell you I read the article, thank you very much!

You're welcome. There are a few good articles written by the author of this site, Karen Rosenfeld. She is an experienced dog behaviorist and wellness advisor with a keen interest in holistic approaches to diet and health. I find much of what she says about diet in particular, to be consistent with what we know about the pet food industry, and how diet is an important factor in the prevention of disease. Much of the information is referenced with dogs in mind but can be applied to cats as well

Remember that though this experiment is to aid in Mazy's digestion, the urine issue can't be ignored.

Urine pH reading before starting ACV. - 7.25 on the phinex strip.

Next day - one drop of ACV in one small meal 5 p.m.. She gobbled it up and ran around playing with her Solitary toy after. No crouching.

Second day. one drop of ACV in one small meal, 10 a.m. She loves it, had a nice wash after.

Third day - one drop of ACV in an evening meal. Again, she gobbled it up. 4 1/2 hours later I took a urine pH reading - 6.25.



Remember the purpose of this is not directly related to lowing urine pH, it is to help her stomach produce more acid to aid in digestion. I don't really know how accurate the phinex strips are, they do read lower than the results my vet got with the same sample, but I am using it more for monitoring changes.

This morning I tried a drop in her Rad Cat meal. She wasn't amused. Funny how she likes it in the canned but not the raw. I had to sprinkle a little forti flora over it to convince her to eat it. :lol3:

Wow.  That's quite a difference.  How much does she normally fluctuate?

Quite a bit, actually, that is when I was testing regularly. I stopped regular testing about a year ago.. That's why I don't place a lot of faith in these strips. But I'm going to test at a range of times for a few weeks, to watch for patterns.

Smaller poop today too. Which could mean, she's digesting her food better. Hmmm.....

otto said:

Thank you @GoHolistic. I did try digestive enzymes about 18 months ago, for 6 months. There was no improvement in Mazy cat's regurgitation issue, and in fact she became very quiet and listless. When I took her off the Prozyme, her normal cheerful active personality gradually came back.

Your point about the dental enamel and her esophagus are things I am also concerned about.

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Ah, okay. Prozyme Original is in a lactose base and Prozyme Feline is in a rice starch base, so it may not agree with some cats. Also, how long has Mazy been on the krill oil? I ask because I had my Boo on krill oil for a very short amount of time and it was making him regurgitate very frequently. For four days or so I had him on krill oil and I didn't put it together right away. But as soon as I stopped the krill oil, he stopped regurgitating. I was almost ready to rush him to the vet for a possible obstruction! Apparently this is a rare side effect, but figured I'd mention it.

I used the original Prozyme, because of the rice flour in the for-cats formula. Mazy cannot tolerate grains of any kind. ANY.

Thanks for your input goholistic ! The regurgitation has nothing to do with the krill, I am positive. It predates the krill by years, she tolerates the krill quite well. Because of the current pattern, every 10 - 14 days, my vet is almost positive this is a motility issue. The fur builds up, gets lodged and she starts puking her food until she passes the fur.

In my opinion, her motility, and her digestion, were destroyed by the Hill's c/d.

She's gone from regurgitating daily, or even twice a day, to every few days to once a week, to every 10 - 14, and sometimes even 17 or 18 days, the improvement has been gradual, over the past 2 1/2 years, after changing her diet (took a long time to find foods she could tolerate) and as I've gradually found things that help her, that extend the number of days between episodes, gradual but definitely better. I don't think she will ever be completely better.

Egg yolk lecithin to help control hairballs. She gets two capsules a day, one in the morning, one at night (the other cats each only need half a capsule every other day)

Slippery Elm Bark to reduce inflammation and sooth irritation. 1/8 tsp with .5 oz of food (split into two meals) once a day, this meal when I come home for lunch from work, it is after her longest fast of 6 hours.

Vet's-Best hairball relief for additional hairball help during the Feb- Oct shedding months. She gets that in her middle of the night meal

Krill is for anti inflammatory and skin and coat health, every other day

raw egg yolk (certified organic, certified humane handled free range) twice a week for motility

All of these things have brought some improvement.

But I never stop trying, when someone comes up with an idea that might help, I am usually willing to try it, as long as it isn't something dangerous, and the product doesn't come with a lot of fillers.. And I do not believe a drop of raw organic 'with the mother' apple cider vinegar is dangerous.

Okay, I figured as much. I remember reading some of your old threads about Mazy. You're doing a great job. She is so lucky to have you. 

Hi All,

I have a 5 year old male neutered bengal boy, i recently got a new kitten girl called Peral as i thought my boy was lonely and he started to develop acne on his chin. He has never had this issue before and it was really bad - boils, his glands were up, slept in a seperate room and i could not go near his face at all, he could'nt even groom himself. i jumped onto this website and found some people mentioning 'apple cider vinegar' and thought i would give it a shot as the medical bills were increasing, antio biodic shots and cortisone was getting too much and not good for him.

Anyway, long story short - i bought some from the chemst and diluted a teaspoon with water and wiped his chin twice a day and it has completely cleared up - 4 days it took.

AMAZING. i am so happy and he is so much happier for it too.

Mazy is doing really well on the Bragg's ACV. She gets about three drops in one of her tiny meals, usually about .2 ounces. (that's two tenths of an ounce) of food.

She loves it!

It has definitely improved her digestion, her poops are slightly smaller, so she is getting more from her food. I've read that increasing the acids in the stomach helps the body process the minerals in the food, which will help with all other body functions. She is more able to pass the fur she ingests in such massive quantities too.

I think it might be benefiting her chronic ear problems, also. Time will tell, Mazy's ear flare ups tend to by cycli, so if the next cycle doesn't manifest, I will know for sure.

Her urine pH remains in normal range, though the range varied so much with the phinex strips that I have stopped testing. It was always between 6 and 7 though so I'm not worrying about that.

otto said:

Mazy is doing really well on the Bragg's ACV. She gets about three drops in one of her tiny meals, usually about .2 ounces. (that's two tenths of an ounce) of food.

She loves it!

It has definitely improved her digestion, her poops are slightly smaller, so she is getting more from her food. I've read that increasing the acids in the stomach helps the body process the minerals in the food, which will help with all other body functions. She is more able to pass the fur she ingests in such massive quantities too.

I think it might be benefiting her chronic ear problems, also. Time will tell, Mazy's ear flare ups tend to by cycli, so if the next cycle doesn't manifest, I will know for sure.

Her urine pH remains in normal range, though the range varied so much with the phinex strips that I have stopped testing. It was always between 6 and 7 though so I'm not worrying about that.

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Thanks for the update Otto. Some interesting feedback that will be helpful to someone else down the road.

Somehow I missed this entire thread, but absolutely fascinating information, otto.

My understanding is that as a fermented food, the ACV will help support healthy gut bacteria and wouldn't interfere with the probiotics - rather, it helps them.

Thanks ldg and oneandahalfcats I am still very happy with the ACV. Mazy cat is getting about a half teaspoon a day total, which amounts to about 2 drops in four of her 12 servings a day. I put the drops in the first (of two) servings of a meal session, she has the next serving about 10-15 minutes later, without ACV, so I don't worry about it causing erosion of tooth enamel or bothering her esophagus.

She gets the first drops in her very first morning serving, with her probiotic (thanks Laurie)

Next drops are in the first (of two) serving of her lunch meal, which is also her SEB meal. SEB is in both servings.

Third set of drops are in her first (of two)serving of her pre-supper meal. No supplements in that meal.

Fourth set are in her middle of the night meal which also currently is her Vet's-Best meal. She gets .3 ounce (three tenths of an ounce) with half a Vet's best mixed in with a tiny bit of water. The .3 ounce is split in half, the first half has the AVC, the second half doesn't.

I've decided to start the other two on a small amount of it too, mainly because of its anti-flea benefits. I am currently required to spend time several times a month in a home that is flea infested. I take very elaborate measures to avoid bringing any fleas or eggs home with me, but I'd really like to avoid having to treat the cats for fleas and I think the ACV may help with that. I may follow up using it topically, too, as oneandahalcats mentioned earlier in this thread.
Incidentally I am taking the ACV daily myself too. A tablespoon mixed in 8 oz of water before lunch and before supper.

Thanks for letting us know how things are going with the ACV, Otto. Very pleased to hear that Mazy is doing well and benefiting from it. I was curious to know how it would be tolerated as I had contemplated using it at one point in response to Max's constipation.

I used to take a lemon shot with water in the mornings which accomplishes the same thing as with the ACV, but the ACV is definitely more pleasant.