- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #121
-
Too many ads? Join our community of cat lovers now to reduce ads by 90%! Click here to join for free!
The well-known problem of IBD or lymphoma and pancreatitis
- Thread starter arinlars
- Start Date
- Status
Ok good, it sounds like a plan. What troubles me still is why it took a non-vet (me) to quote the Merck Manual to get a vet to correct the dosage with your assistance. It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence although I am glad your vet is willing to try a new dose.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2014
- Messages
- 931
- Purraise
- 168
Stephen, my cat Obi just was in for an internal medicine consult. He has pancreatitis, which as you probably know can go with IBD or lymphoma. Obi is just under 11 lbs and is on 2.5 mgs pred, he has been at 5 about a month and a half ago (with a different vet). I suspect the reason the vet wanted him to stay at 2.5 (at least til Friday) is so he can go up if he needs to; and because IBD and lymphoma are treated very similarly, so if a cat is able to maintain at a lower dose, there is probably no reason to go up. But I think what you are saying to Arinlars is that if the cat stops eating - time to increase the pred. I myself am on the fence about this - I think Obi might do better at a higher dose at least for now...but he is eating. Not quite as much as I would like to see, but he is eating.
@myrnafaye
I was saying several things so let me - with care - re-state what i was getting at:
- With IBD, the issue isn't eating enough or appetite per se, its nutrient absorption and when a cat has a bad case of IBD they start losing weight even though they are eating normally. When treatments are working (pred being one of several types of treatments) the result is weight gain which is important because it means the disease is in remission and the cat is not at risk (at the moment) of dying, which continuous weight loss in the face of serious IBD or lymphoma is the worst possible and eventually likely outcome.
- Every cat is different, I am not a vet, nor am i or anyone here allowed to tell a poster what medicine to take or at what dose. But because Arinlars cat was not gaining weight, i a) expressed my concern clearly, b) quoted published material and c) suggested she talk to her vet, which she did, the result being the vet gave a new instruction.
- Pancreatitis when it flares up can result in poor appetite because the cat feels very badly (nauseous) , and I was not discussing Pred in any context having to do with that illness.
I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm one of the folks that found success with raw for chronic diarrhea. Because I was scared (but also at my wit's end), I did the searing method to take care of possible bacteria on the outside of the meat to reduce bacterial load. I put the chicken thighs on a rack-pan in a 550 F oven for a few minutes, just until the outer skin barely started to turn yellow. I would then out it out and immediately dunk the chicken thighs into ice water to stop the cooking process. That way I had raw meat and bone beneath the skin and reduced bacteria. I no longer do this step, but for those that have concerns and want to try raw (even if only as a treat) this might help them out.Only prendisolone. Probiotics every day too . You know I want to try her raw but a little hesitating . On the other hand what else can go wrong ? I never had experience with ibd so I don't know how it is .. I thought it will be there but not so much
Does your kitty has ibd too ?
Good luck with your kitty. I can certainly appreciate your frustration.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #126
Yes, since grinding can cause oxidation and I'm paranoid about my cats getting what they need. I follow Dr. Pierson's recipe at www.catinfo.org. You don't have to be an incredible cook to follow the recipe, just be able to follow directions. For starters, I'd just see if he'll take to raw/cooked at all before jumping into making balanced raw. Good on you for realizing that it needs to be balanced in the long run, though! Do you cook meat at all? I don't care if it's terrible, I'm asking if you cook meat for yourself at all. Then we know what we're up against and can better help you.
Oh, if you have a Crock pot (slow cooker) or can get one, here is an easy recipe for the bone broth that LDG mentioned if you'd like to try it first: http://www.imperfecthomemaking.com/2012/04/easiest-homemade-chicken-broth-in.html. Get a to go box for bones from dinner. Maybe get an ice cube tray to pour the broth into and freeze for individual servings?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #128
Hello all!
So Mimi is doing fine. Her stoolare firm no vomiting for months. The only problem is that her stool have this strange color, now is yellow with brown and she doesn't scoop it anymore. I'm thinking she does that on purpose so I can see it? It's weird and annoying. Normally she covers it with kitty litter.. Does anyone had the same experience or I am overreacting?
Editing because I forgot to add that since I increased the dose of prednisolone she eats like crazy!! She has so much appetite but she doesn't gain weight at all..
So Mimi is doing fine. Her stoolare firm no vomiting for months. The only problem is that her stool have this strange color, now is yellow with brown and she doesn't scoop it anymore. I'm thinking she does that on purpose so I can see it? It's weird and annoying. Normally she covers it with kitty litter.. Does anyone had the same experience or I am overreacting?
Editing because I forgot to add that since I increased the dose of prednisolone she eats like crazy!! She has so much appetite but she doesn't gain weight at all..
Last edited:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #129
As all it wasn't enough she is scratching her ears like crazy and bled. She did that again last year and she ended having mites despite the anti flee and mite drop, revolution. Oh Mimi.. I m scared that her immune system might be messed up with the pred and can't fight the infection or whatever is going on with thee ears..
Good that her appetite is up, are you weighing her at home? Is that why you know she hasn't gained? I would give her a week on the new dosage before weighing her. The color of the poop is odd, you haven't changed foods right? I doubt she isn't burying it because she wants you to look at it, but there may be another reason why she isn't burying.
I can't say if her itchy ears are connected to the Pred or not, but your Vet should be able to tell you and provide help.
I can't say if her itchy ears are connected to the Pred or not, but your Vet should be able to tell you and provide help.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #131
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2014
- Messages
- 931
- Purraise
- 168
If this is a repetitive question, I apologize. The question is, what would you do if you did not know if your cat had IBD or lymphoma?
Obi has had a ll the blood work that can be reasonably done. HIs B12 is low (and now he is on B12 shots); and his test showed a slight inflammation of the pancreas, but no impairment in its functioning. He was on 2.5 mg pred, reglan and pepcid. I have him on a novel protein diet.
After the GI panel came back, a vet reviewed it with me - but was not the same vet who examined Obi (the internal med vet is on maternity leave, and the clinic has these docs who are filling in for her until the 1st or 2nd week of July). Her feeling was that Obi's hairballs have indicated GI disease, and it is probably now lymphoma. I am not sure why she feels it is lymphoma and not IBD, other than that progression from hairballs to IBD to lymphoma.
My dilemma: I dont want to have an ultrasound or a biopsy. I have been told that an ultrasound may or may not be diagnostic, and especially so if there is pred on board. We have upped Obi's pred as of yesterday to 5 mg.
My question: what would you all do? would you treat with pred, or would you ask to start on chloramusol, which is chemotherapy? would you get another opinion (I am working on that but its difficult). Clincially, Obi is eating well, I dont think he is losing weight, but he is "quiet", and spends mornings under the bed. I dont like that behavior, in fact, that concerns me the most. My other cat is hanging out there with him.
All the vets seem to keep hammering on ultrasound and biopsy. In a perfect world, yes, maybe but not necessarily. Obi is 15.
Obi has had a ll the blood work that can be reasonably done. HIs B12 is low (and now he is on B12 shots); and his test showed a slight inflammation of the pancreas, but no impairment in its functioning. He was on 2.5 mg pred, reglan and pepcid. I have him on a novel protein diet.
After the GI panel came back, a vet reviewed it with me - but was not the same vet who examined Obi (the internal med vet is on maternity leave, and the clinic has these docs who are filling in for her until the 1st or 2nd week of July). Her feeling was that Obi's hairballs have indicated GI disease, and it is probably now lymphoma. I am not sure why she feels it is lymphoma and not IBD, other than that progression from hairballs to IBD to lymphoma.
My dilemma: I dont want to have an ultrasound or a biopsy. I have been told that an ultrasound may or may not be diagnostic, and especially so if there is pred on board. We have upped Obi's pred as of yesterday to 5 mg.
My question: what would you all do? would you treat with pred, or would you ask to start on chloramusol, which is chemotherapy? would you get another opinion (I am working on that but its difficult). Clincially, Obi is eating well, I dont think he is losing weight, but he is "quiet", and spends mornings under the bed. I dont like that behavior, in fact, that concerns me the most. My other cat is hanging out there with him.
All the vets seem to keep hammering on ultrasound and biopsy. In a perfect world, yes, maybe but not necessarily. Obi is 15.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #133
Hi myrnafaye!
I don't know if my kitty had ibd or lymphoma. Vets are not helping much and I had only an ultrasound because I was told that the surgery was expensive and my normal vet did not inform me that he could do it cheap .. Any way with this and that she is on prednisolone 2.5mg twice a day for now to gain weight and to stop the soft poop.
If it turns out lymphoma then I'll start therapy although I will know it maybe too late but ... What can I do ? It will break my heart to she her suffer because I have to stop pred for 2 weeks and get a biopsy that may or not show me what she has.
We are on the same case here. Now she is eating venison wet food and having a nice life.. I will go though to a holistic vet and another internist.
I cannot tell you what to do it depends on what you want. If you want not to peruse biopsies etc then do the pred and if the vet suspects lymphoma then start chemo ? This is what I will do .btw my kitty is also under the bed all day but I think she is bored or bullied by my other cat-they are always fighting .
I don't know if my kitty had ibd or lymphoma. Vets are not helping much and I had only an ultrasound because I was told that the surgery was expensive and my normal vet did not inform me that he could do it cheap .. Any way with this and that she is on prednisolone 2.5mg twice a day for now to gain weight and to stop the soft poop.
If it turns out lymphoma then I'll start therapy although I will know it maybe too late but ... What can I do ? It will break my heart to she her suffer because I have to stop pred for 2 weeks and get a biopsy that may or not show me what she has.
We are on the same case here. Now she is eating venison wet food and having a nice life.. I will go though to a holistic vet and another internist.
I cannot tell you what to do it depends on what you want. If you want not to peruse biopsies etc then do the pred and if the vet suspects lymphoma then start chemo ? This is what I will do .btw my kitty is also under the bed all day but I think she is bored or bullied by my other cat-they are always fighting .
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #134
Btw I asked the vet if she can get a chemo drug they aids no without a surgery to see what they are treating and that prednisolone is a chemo drug so ... I just feed her quality food, give her pred and probiotics and pester the vets with a million questions
Pred isn't really a chemo drug. It's a steroid but at the usual doses it's an anti-inflammatory rather than a immuno-suppressant. The Leukeran is a chemo drug that is used to treat small cell lymphoma. It is also sometimes used to treat advanced IBD. The reason for the biopsy is to find out if it's small cell or large cell lymphoma. The large cell lymphoma requires cycles of different chemo drugs given by IV at the vet's office.
The Leukeran is a pill given at home, though it is usually given in cycles as well often in conjunction with pred.
The Leukeran is a pill given at home, though it is usually given in cycles as well often in conjunction with pred.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2014
- Messages
- 931
- Purraise
- 168
Denise, yes, I am aware of what pred does and does not do. i dont t hink anyone has mentioned large cell lymphoma because nothing was palpable, he is eating, not losing weight, etc. Only chlorambucil was mentioned in combination with the pred.
@myrnafaye
I'm going to suggest that you start your own thread so that we can discuss your cat separately from the OP's.
I don't understand your vets POV at all. Severe IBD or small cell lymphoma as far as I have been told will always cause weight loss, and it is partly diagnostic and cats who have it even without a biopsy usually start on Pred, not chloramusol (Leukeran) and if that works then great, and if it doesn't or if it stops working then you move on to the chloramusol, but you would never imo just start a cat on Leukeran if you suspected lymphoma in the absence of weight loss.
You are correct a surgical biopsy is not really indicated when the cat is on Pred. Is Pancreatitis being discussed? An ultrasound is much less expensive then a surgical biopsy (like $200 vs $2000) and is very easy to do and they can look at both the pancreas and the intestines in an ultrasound, and being on Pred does not preclude an ultrasound I believe.
I'm going to suggest that you start your own thread so that we can discuss your cat separately from the OP's.
I don't understand your vets POV at all. Severe IBD or small cell lymphoma as far as I have been told will always cause weight loss, and it is partly diagnostic and cats who have it even without a biopsy usually start on Pred, not chloramusol (Leukeran) and if that works then great, and if it doesn't or if it stops working then you move on to the chloramusol, but you would never imo just start a cat on Leukeran if you suspected lymphoma in the absence of weight loss.
You are correct a surgical biopsy is not really indicated when the cat is on Pred. Is Pancreatitis being discussed? An ultrasound is much less expensive then a surgical biopsy (like $200 vs $2000) and is very easy to do and they can look at both the pancreas and the intestines in an ultrasound, and being on Pred does not preclude an ultrasound I believe.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2014
- Messages
- 931
- Purraise
- 168
Stephen: Go to the thread "Obi has an appt. with internal medicine today, and I will respond to your comments and will welcome yours; that way we can keep it separate from the OP.
Do you have a link?
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2014
- Messages
- 931
- Purraise
- 168
- Status
