Is it unhealthy??

goholistic · May 23, 2014

There are many people who feel very strongly about some aspect of feline nutrition - whether it's prescription diets, no dry, mostly wet, all wet, homecooked, raw, whatever - because they've experienced some "event" that was caused or managed by diet and they have a passion for telling their story and sharing the information they learned along the way. The goal is not to benefit themselves or offend others, but in hopes of helping owners make decisions for their kitties.

I experienced first hand the "lecturing" of diet and opinions were all over the place. That is the nature of these online forums. But I did not take offense and saw everything in a positive light and knew that people are just trying to help and give their perspective. It does sometimes come across as "my way or the highway," but personally, I have nothing negative to say about someone who has that kind of passion, especially when the reason is warranted.

oneandahalfcats · May 23, 2014

Max doesn't have IBD or IBS. He has had constipation, which after much trial and error, appears to be a thing of the past. Constipation from dry food was not Max's problem as he was pooping fine on Purina and the RC Fibre Response. To this day I am not entirely sure just what went wrong when the switch from Purina took place, but, as Max has responded very well to Slippery Elm and Probiotics, I have become convinced that poor digestion has played a role more than anything. It would have been a very easy transition to put Max back on RC Fibre Response dry, which was the conventional vet's suggestion, but I was not willing to go there, on account of the ingredients in this food. Does this mean my opinion of RC should extend to all dry food, no, and it shouldn't prevent someone else from feeding their cat this food, if it can help. There are some dry food formulas that are fairly decent for ingredients which can be appropriate to feed, provided a cat is getting its protein and moisture requirements met. Which brings me back to my original comments on the subject.

chwx · May 23, 2014

There's just as much bad stuff in our "healthy" foods these days as there is in a Snickers bar so I really don't see harm in one a day. Food is comfort and stress relief for me personally and Snickers are my favorite candy. I'd probably be better off eating one a day to make me feel good than stressing myself over "it may cause me to have diabetes so I can't have it". Just because something may not be right for everyone (I can put back some Taco Bell for example with 0 issues while others will spend the next day in the loo!) doesn't mean it's bad for all. If that's the case then nothing we or our pets eat is any good!

Someone said on the first page something about why it isn't advised to rotate dry....I guess I'm a rebel because my pets never eat 2 bags of something in a row and I always rotate brands and flavors cold turkey. My pets have savored just about every brand and flavor of dry, canned and raw that lines the local pet store shelves. No issues. I believe that animals who can't change foods are sick animals. Something in them obviously doesn't work right and through my observation this has to do a lot with genetics but this is just what I've seen and experienced.

I will agree with GoHolistic's statement about lectures though. I once had a man aggressively attack me and go as far as saying I'm killing my dogs and shouldn't be allowed to own them because I didn't feed them Orijen. He was a very hardcore "expert" and by that I mean he had no degree in animal nutrition and followed the human dentist who runs Dog Food Advisor like he is the canine nutritional messiah even though he himself (The owner/dentist) has no nutritional training himself.

Bad apples will fall where they please. I feel you should most certainly educate yourself to best assess what you feel most comfortable with but at the end of the day what the cat likes and what the owner can afford will play a role that can't easily be changed. My cats eat all canned with a once a week tops "treat" of dry (no more than 1tbs each) but I've recently gone (cold turkey) back to kibble until my wedding/honeymoon is over for a) saving money and b) making it easier for whoever watches them. The stools are still good and the pee clumps are still massive because I encourage water intake through different "water choices" (One cleaned and refreshed daily, two cleaned and refreshed on opposite days of each other since Ollie likes "aged" water and also a fresh flowing fountain) and adding some water to float their kibble in. I doubt they're going to kill over from it.

(I'm on my phone so quoting is hard)

molldee · May 23, 2014

CHWx said:
Someone said on the first page something about why it isn't advised to rotate dry....I guess I'm a rebel because my pets never eat 2 bags of something in a row and I always rotate brands and flavors cold turkey. My pets have savored just about every brand and flavor of dry, canned and raw that lines the local pet store shelves. No issues. I believe that animals who can't change foods are sick animals. Something in them obviously doesn't work right and through my observation this has to do a lot with genetics but this is just what I've seen and experienced.

Imagine someone eats salads for non-stop all their meals every day. Then imagine a year later, they decide to cold turkey stop eating salads and eat a huge steak. Of course they're stomach is going to do flips because the diet is so different! It's like that with cats too, but cats are more sensitive because they're smaller. I don't think cats that are sensitive to quick food changes are necessarily "sick." They are just adjusting to whatever ingredients are thrown at them. Especially if you're going from a high quality food to something low quality, of course they're going to have some tummy upsets. Now if you're transitioning from high quality to high quality or low quality to low quality, you shouldn't have significant tummy upsets because all of the ingredients are pretty similar.

pinkdagger · May 23, 2014

^ This. And of course, it varies from cat to cat just as it does person to person. My sister-in-law was vegetarian for six years and one day decided to make and eat some bacon on its own with no ill effects. My boyfriend, when he had been a vegetarian for five years ate some casserole his mom had put chicken in and spent the evening vomiting. Using a gradual transition can help alleviate potential discomfort because you're working your way up to a new primary diet. I know with other animals, you should use a gradual transition or they may not even recognize the new food as food at all. If a food looks or smells funny or has a strange texture compared to what they're used to, you don't want to leave a cat to starve on a new food cold turkey because they genuinely don't realize it's their new food, they don't like it, or they get sick from it. It's a great thing when animals can adapt seamlessly to whatever food they are provided, but not all animals and not all pet owners can be so fortunate.

chwx · May 23, 2014

I myself was vegetarian for 11 years and vegan for roughly 8 months before I picked up a piece of meat with no I'll effects.

'Primary diet' is what I feel is the issue with pets. People who feed the same stuff day in and day out for years and then most end up with problems because the owner has screwed the animals system into not being used to anything else. This is exactly why my animals do not eat the same food every day and maybe I'm just lucky or something but the 30+ cats and dogs I've had have never had any digestive issues. (Or been too picky of eaters) Introducing new foods (Dry, canned, raw and home cooked) asap helps to prevent an animal "not seeing new things as food". I also don't care if you spend $10 on food or $100, I do not believe a single food is good for our pets health regardless if it says "complete and balanced" on it. We can indeed survive on a single food and synthetic vitamins but we won't be at optimum health by doing this and I don't believe pets will be either which is why I stress to others the importance of variety.

pinkdagger · May 23, 2014

I agree - all of my pets receive a variety of brands, flavours, and types of food on a regular basis, despite some brands claiming they need to be the main diet, supplemented only with X, Y, and Z (never any other brands, of course). Marketing, especially for pet food is aimed towards owners looking for convenience. They all tout that their own brand provides everything a pet could ever need and so people buy a giant bag and call it a day. I find it to be especially common with grocery store or department store brands (who market a LOT and manufacture cheaply). There are only so many of them in those stores, the quality is so low, and a lot of owners shopping for food - especially dry food in those stores - will tend to stick to a brand anyway. I'm sure the person who lectured the OP was in the same train of thought as many of us but could have used some tact in the situation.

My birds have had access to a great number of different foods, but when I give them a piece of fruit or any vegetable that isn't green, they would sooner turn their tails and run because they hate the texture and juiciness. My cats will lick the gravies from shredded canned varieties and leave the actual shreds because they hate fumbling with the strips and the texture just isn't meaty like pates or actual raw meat. They know it's food to some degree, but it's a last resort for them, kind of like how olives would be a last resort for me if there was no other food in the house.

ldg · May 23, 2014

catlovermeow said:
Yesterday, while i was grocery shopping to get food for my cats, as usual i grabbed food cans and a bag of dry food and some sand and then this woman appears and gives me a lecture about how bad dry food is bad for cat?
Is that true?

IrinaSaK said:
You have an interesting debate here about dry foods not being created equal and wet foods not being created equal, but neither are cats. I am always happy to read about elderly cats doing great on dry fod - but why don't we talk about the cause of that being the cat's body, and not the food? I mean, some cats are just healthier than others....

Here's my take on it. Gary's grandfather ate deep fried foods, had eggs & bacon for breakfast every morning, and smoked a pack of filterless cigarettes every day. He died at 92? 96? years old. Did he eat a healthy diet? Did he live a healthy life? No. He had good genes.

The question is "Is it true that dry food is bad," meaning, is dry food unhealthy.

It depends on how you define healthy. Dry food is extremely processed. Dry food by definition contains rendered ingredients, so at least some of the ingredients that go INTO dry food are very highly processed. The ingredients that go into dry food are *usually* ingredients that weren't good enough to go into canned food, which is why they're in rendering vats being turned into chicken meal, turkey meal, chicken by-product meal, meat meal, meat by-product meal, etc.

I personally do not consider mega-processed food made out of (typically) inferior ingredients that are processed before they go into the kibble healthy. Just like choosing between Cocoa Puffs (a breakfast cereal in the U.S. and an organic, whole grain Kashi, there are different "grades" of quality within the category. But just as with Cocoa Puffs or that whole grain Kashi, both are highly processed and not as healthy as less processed options.

As to the dry food and FLUTD issue - yes, there are MANY things that factor into FLUTD. But eating a diet of dry food does put a cat at higher risk for developing FLUTD.

Kibble does require some form of starch or carb to bind it. Here is a 2004 research piece that indicates starch and fiber in diets increase risk of crystals: "Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats." (Funaba et al. 2004) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14974568

Kibble does predispose cats to urethral obstruction: "Urethral obstruction in cats: predisposing factors, clinical, clinicopathological characteristics and prognosis." (Segev et al. 2011) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21145768

koolkatz · May 24, 2014

CHWx said:
I myself was vegetarian for 11 years and vegan for roughly 8 months before I picked up a piece of meat with no I'll effects.

'Primary diet' is what I feel is the issue with pets. People who feed the same stuff day in and day out for years and then most end up with problems because the owner has screwed the animals system into not being used to anything else. This is exactly why my animals do not eat the same food every day and maybe I'm just lucky or something but the 30+ cats and dogs I've had have never had any digestive issues. (Or been too picky of eaters) Introducing new foods (Dry, canned, raw and home cooked) asap helps to prevent an animal "not seeing new things as food". I also don't care if you spend $10 on food or $100, I do not believe a single food is good for our pets health regardless if it says "complete and balanced" on it. We can indeed survive on a single food and synthetic vitamins but we won't be at optimum health by doing this and I don't believe pets will be either which is why I stress to others the importance of variety.

This is true, but cats are not the same as humans. We treat them like family, but in terms of food they should be treated differently than humans. If a cat is on a dry diet for 11 years and then you just put a can of wet food down, they won't eat it. I think it is good to have variety, but I think you should stick to a primary diet, like have a few different brands of wet food in your cats' diet but only a little dry.

oneandahalfcats · May 24, 2014

koolkatz · May 24, 2014

Cats evolved by getting their protein from other animals, not plants or most of the stuff in dry food.

Also dry food can be a cause of cystitis for cats, especially mine where the cats are not big drinkers.

oneandahalfcats · May 24, 2014

@peaches08 : I just wanted to extend an apology for some of my comments yesterday. In hindsight I realize that some were a bit over the top, and so, I am sorry.

oneandahalfcats · May 24, 2014

KoolKatz said:
Cats evolved by getting their protein from other animals, not plants or most of the stuff in dry food.

Also dry food can be a cause of cystitis for cats, especially mine where the cats are not big drinkers.

True. Cats also didn't evolve from eating wet canned food either which is processed to a certain extent, can contain synthetic ingredients, fillers and protein from plant sources. The important thing is to look at labels and check ingredients in both types of food.

chwx · May 24, 2014

KoolKatz said:
This is true, but cats are not the same as humans. We treat them like family, but in terms of food they should be treated differently than humans. If a cat is on a dry diet for 11 years and then you just put a can of wet food down, they won't eat it. I think it is good to have variety, but I think you should stick to a primary diet, like have a few different brands of wet food in your cats' diet but only a little dry.

Any one food for 11 years is bad. One kind of canned food is bad. Feeding nothing but raw chicken with synthetic vitamins for 11 years would be bad. My animals are again, introduced to dry, canned, raw and home cooked from the get-go and during their life will get a taste of pretty much everything you can buy. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't continue to feed a massive variety of foods because thus far my track record shows 0 issues. The only animals I've ever had issues with were dogs and it was NOT diet related. One had a recessed vulva that caused urine to pool back into her vagina which lead to UTI's. By the time she had her second heat, her vulva was 100% corrected NATURALLY. Another got parvo (despite being vaccinated) but pulled through with meds/fluids. My other "problem child" if you will is my current dog Zoey. At 10 years old she suffered from pyometra which is an infection in the uterus. Emergency spay fixed her right up. Within the year she was diagnosed with hypothyroidism which I firmly believe was due to being spayed. She just turned 15 and is still going strong and we manage her hypothyroidism with meds morning and night. So again, I've never had any proof in my many many years of animal keeping, having had 30+ in my care, that variety in the diet leads to health problems. I have however seen many sick animals who eat all the same stuff and then BAM! If the food is sold or they change formulas, the animal becomes sick from the change. Or they flat out refuse the new formula and end up at the emergency vet for fluids and intensive care because they won't eat it. Or the food gets recalled and the owner is forced to switch brands and the animal refuses new food or can't tolerate it. When I say an animal that can't handle change is "sick", it's not that it really has a medical problem like IBD or anything but it is sick from the owner not "working" the body to accept new things. If they would have given the animal options from the start, there wouldn't be issues of not seeing it as food or not being able to tolerate something different. Like the people who preach about wet food because they've ran into health issues otherwise, I preach about variety in the diet because it is my experience that I've never had anything bad happen from feeding variety but also that I've seen the damage any one food can cause through others who DON'T feed a variety. I've never had animals who were overweight, had diabetes, cats with urinary problems due or not due to diet, ect. The only issues I've ever had have been 100% unrelated to diet. Unless you include the two times the foods themselves were bad. First was Nutro in 2009 where Zoey almost died from eating that toxic crap and she was NOT the only one yet Nutro refused to recall the lots that I and others realized were batches fed that made our pets sick. Second was last June when EVO recalled and again, Zoey got a bit of an upset stomach. Though it was NOTHING compared to how sick Nutro made her. Both were foods she had been fed previously with no issues, these were just tainted foods.

koolkatz · May 24, 2014

CHWx said:
Any one food for 11 years is bad. One kind of canned food is bad. Feeding nothing but raw chicken with synthetic vitamins for 11 years would be bad. My animals are again, introduced to dry, canned, raw and home cooked from the get-go and during their life will get a taste of pretty much everything you can buy. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't continue to feed a massive variety of foods because thus far my track record shows 0 issues. The only animals I've ever had issues with were dogs and it was NOT diet related. One had a recessed vulva that caused urine to pool back into her vagina which lead to UTI's. By the time she had her second heat, her vulva was 100% corrected NATURALLY. Another got parvo (despite being vaccinated) but pulled through with meds/fluids. My other "problem child" if you will is my current dog Zoey. At 10 years old she suffered from pyometra which is an infection in the uterus. Emergency spay fixed her right up. Within the year she was diagnosed with hypothyroidism which I firmly believe was due to being spayed. She just turned 15 and is still going strong and we manage her hypothyroidism with meds morning and night. So again, I've never had any proof in my many many years of animal keeping, having had 30+ in my care, that variety in the diet leads to health problems. I have however seen many sick animals who eat all the same stuff and then BAM! If the food is sold or they change formulas, the animal becomes sick from the change. Or they flat out refuse the new formula and end up at the emergency vet for fluids and intensive care because they won't eat it. Or the food gets recalled and the owner is forced to switch brands and the animal refuses new food or can't tolerate it. When I say an animal that can't handle change is "sick", it's not that it really has a medical problem like IBD or anything but it is sick from the owner not "working" the body to accept new things. If they would have given the animal options from the start, there wouldn't be issues of not seeing it as food or not being able to tolerate something different. Like the people who preach about wet food because they've ran into health issues otherwise, I preach about variety in the diet because it is my experience that I've never had anything bad happen from feeding variety but also that I've seen the damage any one food can cause through others who DON'T feed a variety. I've never had animals who were overweight, had diabetes, cats with urinary problems due or not due to diet, ect. The only issues I've ever had have been 100% unrelated to diet. Unless you include the two times the foods themselves were bad. First was Nutro in 2009 where Zoey almost died from eating that toxic crap and she was NOT the only one yet Nutro refused to recall the lots that I and others realized were batches fed that made our pets sick. Second was last June when EVO recalled and again, Zoey got a bit of an upset stomach. Though it was NOTHING compared to how sick Nutro made her. Both were foods she had been fed previously with no issues, these were just tainted foods.

I agree with you, but I feed my cats a variety of wet food, with no dry or raw. They just won't eat any raw, and I don't believe that dry food is necessary when you can just feed them wet food. I give them multiple brands, and they love all of it. Even Gandalf, who has an incredibly sensitive stomach keeps (almost) all of the wet food I feed him down, because that is how cats evolved to get their protein. Through other animals, not with plants or synthetic vitamins. I would feed them raw but they don't like it. I've only had my cats for a short period of time, but I think every cat is different and it is a matter of personal opinion. I wouldn't force them to eat raw food, I'll give them what they like. I don't want to switch my cats to a raw, or dry diet, because I want them to be happy, yet not get diseases that occur from an all-dry diet.

If you think that an animal can't handle change, it's sick, that's your opinion. I'll stick with my all-wet diet.

peaches08 · May 24, 2014

oneandahalfcats said:
@peaches08 : I just wanted to extend an apology for some of my comments yesterday. In hindsight I realize that some were a bit over the top, and so, I am sorry.

It's cool, and I apologize as well. Things could have been said in a better way on my part.

It's true that no, I do not trust most of the commercial foods available for our cats. It's hard enough to grocery shop for ourselves without fear (salmonella with a side of spinach anyone?). I truly would rather most cats get Meow Mix dry than starve to death, but we all know that there are better ways to help kitties out there. TNR, careful shopping (for ourselves as well as kitties), etc.

It's also easy to get caught up in "but my cats are are just fine, always have been!" This isn't at you, oneandahalfcats. I'm including myself in that remark. Looking back at cats that I had as a kid, fed dry only and it was cheap dry. Did they "survive" what we gave them? Yes. Did they thrive? Honestly, no. And I don't mean just cancers and such. I mean things like urine smelled, hairballs (throwing up hairballs everyday), and coats that just aren't what my cats now have. The house smelled of cat. Not crazy cat hoarding smell, just that you could smell it. Again, they were surviving what we did rather than thriving from it. How many cats or other animals do you see that you have to bite your tongue and NOT start to give advice about? It's pretty often for me. Although I don't agree with how the OP was treated in the store. When I fed canned and people would see me reading labels and ask why, I would give a brief reason why and show them what I'm looking at. Most were appreciative and asked questions about foods they were feeding.

In any case I can understand why some people have to do what they have to do. For some I question if they truly exhausted their options before feeding dry food because I truly do not like feeding dry food. I had to feed low carb dry to my last kibble head only to watch her phosphorus levels climb to crazy new heights despite the binders she was given. I watched her BUN and creatinine hit whole new highs and stay there despite the increased subQ fluids. Finaly I watched her enter end stage. Currently, I need to find a better alternative to hairball treats for the cats I have now. My obstacles have been time and money. We tend to lack both when in school. Now I'm in the process of studying for boards. Certain things have to take precedence and I of all people understand that. What I don't understand is when people grab any ole bag off the grocery store shelf and say, "it's just a cat." Sigh. I suppose I have to say that at least the cat has a home? I don't know.

ldg · May 24, 2014

oneandahalfcats said:
Chicken and Turkey meal are actually superior to meat in terms of one of the types of meat protein source that goes into dry kibble, as they are a more concentrated form of meat, with the moisture removed.

Please define "superior"? If you're taking bioavailability, it certainly isn't, because extruded diets are not as easily digestible nor bioavailable as canned or raw meats.

It would appear you're arguing that concentrated food is "superior" to fresh or moist food. Please correct me if I am wrong.

oneandahalfcats said:
In the study linked to of dietary carbs on urine, there is no mention of the dry kibble that was used?

Because it was a meta-study examining risk factors. Perhaps they would have found that the risk varies within dry foods, but the lack of moisture in the diet produces concentrated urine, which increases risk. According to the study authors.

oneandahalfcats said:
I don't think equating dry kibble to a snickers bar or breakfast cereal is a reasonable comparison.

You appear to have missed the point. I was not comparing ingredients. I was comparing processing. Dry breakfast cereal is is similar to dry diets in that the ingredients are cooked and processed prior to extrusion, synthetic vitamins are added to account for the loss of nutrients due to the high heat processing, and then the product is extruded, the extruded product baked, and then it is sprayed with flavoring. It is a completely appropriate comparison.

oneandahalfcats said:
There's no question that carbs and grains can alter a urine's ph, even when a cat is consuming wet canned, and so the emphasis I think, should really be on grain and carb content, rather than dry food per se, and going for options that are grain-free and low carb, just as one would when sourcing wet canned.

So moisture intake is of no import in your estimation?

From my perspective, it is not that Dr. Pierson's info is "outdated." It is that as a vet, she has seen so much unnecessary pain, suffering, and death that could have been completely avoided that she doesn't care what the ingredients in a dry diet are. In her view, a dry diet is not a species-appropriate method of feeding.

I would rather see a kitty with a home even if someone can only afford dry food. But that does not make dry food a species-appropriate food. It is not natural for a human to live on dry cereal only. It is not natural for an animal to live on dry food only. We can talk ingredients all day long, but in the end, I find the argument that highly processed food is "better" than fresh food to be lacking. There is no nutritionist on earth that would argue that highly processed food is better for a human than its fresh equivalent. Why would it be any different for our pets (concerns about homemade food aside). ?????

catwoman707 · May 24, 2014

All I can add here is my personal/recent experience with Krissy, my chubby cat. (actually fat but it hurts me to say that!)

More than a year ago, LDG educated me and helped me switch her to an all canned diet.

She lost weight and seemed great.

Recently she went to the vet and had bloodwork done, one reason is due to her constantly chewing/licking her paws and arms.

Her eosinophils were quite elevated, from an allergic reaction.

Stupidly, thinking I would get to the bottom of it, I got her on a chicken/turkey canned diet and BG Before Grain chicken dry food.

Huh! BIG mistake, and I kick myself for that one.

She is only wanting the dry now, and despite my measuring out 1/4 cup a day, she has gained weight back and always wanting dry.

She is not wanting to eat the canned, so what do I do? Go buy some fish flavors..........so now back to fish canned and dry, allergies and weight gain.

Boy did I mess up!

PLUS, she chews her legs all the time.

peaches08 · May 24, 2014

catwoman707 said:
All I can add here is my personal/recent experience with Krissy, my chubby cat. (actually fat but it hurts me to say that!)

More than a year ago, LDG educated me and helped me switch her to an all canned diet.

She lost weight and seemed great.

Recently she went to the vet and had bloodwork done, one reason is due to her constantly chewing/licking her paws and arms.

Her eosinophils were quite elevated, from an allergic reaction.

Stupidly, thinking I would get to the bottom of it, I got her on a chicken/turkey canned diet and BG Before Grain chicken dry food.

Huh! BIG mistake, and I kick myself for that one.

She is only wanting the dry now, and despite my measuring out 1/4 cup a day, she has gained weight back and always wanting dry.

She is not wanting to eat the canned, so what do I do? Go buy some fish flavors..........so now back to fish canned and dry, allergies and weight gain.

Boy did I mess up!

PLUS, she chews her legs all the time.

Oh the leg chewing...Grey did that. All I can say is I'm sorry and I know the frustration of trying to get a stubborn cat to eat better.

koolkatz · May 24, 2014

peaches08 said:
Oh the leg chewing...Grey did that. All I can say is I'm sorry and I know the frustration of trying to get a stubborn cat to eat better.

Another problem with feeding cats dry, not even a full-dry diet, is that sometimes they like the taste of the dry food so much more, and that's all they want to eat.

Is it unhealthy??

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