Is it unhealthy??

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catlovermeow

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Yesterday, while i was grocery shopping to get food for my cats, as usual i grabbed food cans and a bag of dry food and some sand and then this woman appears and gives me a lecture about how bad dry food is bad for cat?
Is that true?
 

oneandahalfcats

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Yesterday, while i was grocery shopping to get food for my cats, as usual i grabbed food cans and a bag of dry food and some sand and then this woman appears and gives me a lecture about how bad dry food is bad for cat?
Is that true?
Well it depends .. If you are purchasing dry kibble food from the grocery store, chances are it is something like IAMS, Purina, Meow Mix which IS pretty bad food as it is full of grains, high in fat, low in protein. If you are purchasing something like Orijen/Acana, Nature's Variety Instinct, Wellness CORE (not sold in grocery stores), these are higher quality, grain-free dry foods that contain concentrated amounts of different proteins and are foods that would be fine to feed as a supplemental part of the diet. Cats should be getting a majority of their diet from wet canned, cooked or raw meat, but I don't see anything wrong with feeding a small amount of good quality dry kibble.
 
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pinkdagger

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I look at dry more as a supplementary, if it has to be anything in a cat's diet. I wouldn't pop up in front of people in a grocery store and preach that they're doing it wrong, but I personally prefer to feed dominantly wet with some raw and only allow some supplementary nibbling on good kibble which, as mentioned above, does not exist in a grocery store. If you want to offer dry, high protein and low carb are the way to go.

My main test for whether or not I'll consider a food is to look at the first three ingredients. If they're all meat sources, I'll look at the rest of the ingredients, price, and analysis and consider buying it. If any of the top three ingredients are a grain, vegetable, or even a starch, I put it back. With grocery store brands, chances are corn, corn gluten, or corn gluten meal are the first, second, or third ingredient which equals a big NOPE in my books. Definitely check out catinfo.org and just go exploring pet store websites to see what's readily available near you, and check their ingredients. If you're on a budget, calculate price by pound to get the biggest bang for your buck.
 

autumnrose74

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Yesterday, while i was grocery shopping to get food for my cats, as usual i grabbed food cans and a bag of dry food and some sand and then this woman appears and gives me a lecture about how bad dry food is bad for cat?
Is that true?
Yes, it is. Dry food is very moisture-depleted, which puts cats at risk for urinary tract disorders. The protein is sourced more from plants than from animal meat (cats are obligate carnivores). It is also way higher in carbs than cats are designed to eat (often 40% or more - a cat's natural diet is less than 10%). Even a food like Orijen/Acana has 20%, which is still too high IMO.

That said, IMO it was rather rude for that woman to accost you the way she did. My personal response for when strangers try to get too "familiar" is "we don't know each other well enough for that topic of conversation." Believe me, I have to bit my lip to keep from saying something when I see someone carrying a bag of Meow Mix  (yellow corn is the first ingredient - say WHAT??!!), but it's not my place. And when their cat winds up at the vet through eating that crap, that's when they will learn.
 
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oneandahalfcats

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Yes, it is. Dry food is very moisture-depleted, which puts cats at risk for urinary tract disorders. The protein is sourced more from plants than from animal meat (cats are obligate carnivores). It is also way higher in carbs than cats are designed to eat (often 40% or more - a cat's natural diet is less than 10%). Even a food like Orijen/Acana has 20%, which is still too high IMO.
You are making generalizations and blanket statements. Cats are not automatically at risk for urinary tract infections solely because of dry food. There are other factors involved. Not ALL protein in dry food is plant-based, nor is ALL dry kibble high in carbs. The carb content in Orijen may be as much as 15-17% but many of the carbs are low glycemic and represent things like red lentils, peas, green lentils, pumpkin, carrots, rather than a lot potato which you will find in other dry foods. Kibble is not the only food that can contain carbs and grains. Many of the grain-free wet canned contain either potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc.
 

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I personally wouldn't walk up to someone and say that they're doing it wrong, but I do think that dry food is not as good as wet food.
 

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This is what Dr. Pierson says on the subject at the top of her canned food chart:

Note that there is no dry kibble included here. See the 
Urinary Tract Health and Diabetes webpages at catinfo.org for 
reasons why dry food is not recommended for cats. The main 
reasons are: 1) Water-depleted diets do not promote urinary tract 
health and they signifcantly increase your cat's risk for very painful 
and potentially fatal urethral obstructions, as well as cystitis. 2) 
Diets high in carbohydrates negatively impact the blood sugar 
level of many cats and are not species-appropriate diets. The 
insulin needs of diabetic cats nearly always decrease signifcantly 
when their dietary carbohydrate load is decreased. A serious 
hypoglycemic state can occur when this is not recognized. 3) Cats 
are obligate carnivores and are designed to get their protein from 
animal sources, not plants (grains and vegetables).

This is the chart:  http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Note the high carb content in the Gravy type canned foods, that's why so many on here encourage pate style.

That being said, nobody has the right to lecture you. l'm sure the lady thought she was doing you a favour, but lectures aren't the way to go. l do/have drummed up conversations with people shopping in the pet food aisle 
 

autumnrose74

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Thank you, Andrya. Dr. Pierson's website is only the second cat site I read last year, just hours after broaching the subject, & getting permission from my landlord to have a cat. She has both personal and professional experience with the havoc that dry food diets cause.

And she is far from the only voice espousing that same message. Both Drs. Karen Becker and Jean Hofve say the EXACT SAME THING about dry food diets. I suppose they are just "generalizing and making blanket statements" as well.
 

oneandahalfcats

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As much as I respect and admire a lot of the work that Dr. Pierson has undertaken, I don't feel the need to 'blindly' follow everything she says, but make up my own mind. Some of her information is outdated as many of her comments refer to dry food that features plant-based proteins and that all dry foods are high carbs - Not the case in this day and age. Nothing about nutrition or urinary tract infections is that black and white. Cats have been known to block on wet canned besides dry kibble. How do you square this with what you have read at catinfo.org?

There are pros and cons with every diet. When you have been a cat owner a little while longer, you might come to realize this, and start thinking more objectively.

Dr. Karen Becker's pages on Urinary Tract Infections : http://healthypets.mercola.com/site.../prevent-urinary-tract-infection-in-cats.aspx / http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...bladder-infection-and-other-cat-diseases.aspx

Funny. There is no mention about dry food diets causing UTIs? Why? Because dry food is not the sole cause. A lack of water in the diet and diets that are grain-based, but also, some cats are just predisposed to crystals.
 
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peaches08

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As much as I respect and admire a lot of the work that Dr. Pierson has undertaken, I don't feel the need to 'blindly' follow everything she says, but make up my own mind. Some of her information is outdated as many of her comments refer to dry food that features plant-based proteins and that all dry foods are high carbs - Not the case in this day and age. Nothing about nutrition or urinary tract infections is that black and white. Cats have been known to block on wet canned besides dry kibble. How do you square this with what you have read at catinfo.org?

There are pros and cons with every diet. When you have been a cat owner a little while longer, you might come to realize this, and start thinking more objectively.

Dr. Karen Becker's pages on Urinary Tract Infections : http://healthypets.mercola.com/site.../prevent-urinary-tract-infection-in-cats.aspx / http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...bladder-infection-and-other-cat-diseases.aspx

Funny. There is no mention about dry food diets causing UTIs? Why? Because dry food is not the sole cause. A lack of water in the diet and diets that are grain-based, but also, some cats are just predisposed to crystals.
Per the quote that Andrya gave us, Dr. Pierson said "Water-depleted diets do not promote urinary tract health and they signifcantly increase your cat's risk for very painful and potentially fatal urethral obstructions, as well as cystitis"...there's nothing to square there.  It's common knowledge that a healthy intake of water keeps the urinary tract flushed out.  It's also common knowledge that cats aren't very good drinkers in general.

Yes, some cats block even on wet diets.  The cause is sometimes pH, etc.  Not all canned is created equal, either.  Some are quite high in carbs, and for some cats that is a real problem. 

I've known people who have owned animals a long time.  Unfortunately, that did nothing for their knowledge on how to care for the animals. 
 

koolkatz

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Per the quote that Andrya gave us, Dr. Pierson said "Water-depleted diets do not promote urinary tract health and they signifcantly increase your cat's risk for very painful and potentially fatal urethral obstructions, as well as cystitis"...there's nothing to square there.  It's common knowledge that a healthy intake of water keeps the urinary tract flushed out.  It's also common knowledge that cats aren't very good drinkers in general.

Yes, some cats block even on wet diets.  The cause is sometimes pH, etc.  Not all canned is created equal, either.  Some are quite high in carbs, and for some cats that is a real problem. 

I've known people who have owned animals a long time.  Unfortunately, that did nothing for their knowledge on how to care for the animals. 
Pretty much just listen to this guy :p
 

goholistic

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No one is saying that a cat is guaranteed to get health issues from dry food, but the risk does increase, and many have chosen to avoid that increased risk by eliminating dry food altogether, not only for urinary concerns but also to help prevent issues such as constipation/megacolon and diabetes. Some choose to go 75% wet, for example, as a compromise. I used to offer one level tablespoon only at night, but I've recently removed all dry food from both Sebastian's and Boo's diet. I've seen improvement in both of them without dry food in terms of vomiting and bowel movements, even though they were only getting a small amount. Caesar is my challenge. I think, for the most part, we agree that a cat should not be on an all-dry diet (meaning no wet at all). An all-dry diet is very hard on their system.

I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to follow Dr. Pierson's advice, no matter how long they've owned cats. It has good information and is a solid reference for feline health and nutrition, in my opinion.

It's natural for us to post links to articles that support our argument, so I will do the same. Here's a comprehensive one from Dr. Jean Hofve, just updated this past December:

10 Reasons Why Dry Food Is Bad for Cats & Dogs

http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-dry-food-is-bad-for-cats-and-dogs/
 

molldee

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My cat still blocked on wet food (high quality), so I have to feed him partially prescription.
 

oneandahalfcats

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Per the quote that Andrya gave us, Dr. Pierson said "Water-depleted diets do not promote urinary tract health and they signifcantly increase your cat's risk for very painful and potentially fatal urethral obstructions, as well as cystitis"...there's nothing to square there.  It's common knowledge that a healthy intake of water keeps the urinary tract flushed out.  It's also common knowledge that cats aren't very good drinkers in general.

Yes, some cats block even on wet diets.  The cause is sometimes pH, etc.  Not all canned is created equal, either.  Some are quite high in carbs, and for some cats that is a real problem. 

I've known people who have owned animals a long time.  Unfortunately, that did nothing for their knowledge on how to care for the animals. 
Yes a healthy intake of water helps to keep the bladder flushed. What has this got to do with dry food? You are making the assumption that a cat who is consuming dry food, must automatically not be drinking water. All of my cats were very strong water drinkers when on an all-dry diet. They now get the majority of wet canned but still get a bit of dry.

A common cause of UTIs is stress which has nothing to do with diet, or lack or water. While PH is an important tool for monitoring acidity of urine, it is not a guarantee that a cat does or doesn't have crystals. Furthermore, crystals can happen in any PH, but are favored in an alkaline urine.

This thread started out asking the question whether dry food is bad. In some cases, some of it is. In some circumstances it is acceptable. It just depends on what and how much.
 

peaches08

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Yes a healthy intake of water helps to keep the bladder flushed. What has this got to do with dry food?

Dry food does not provide water.

You are making the assumption that a cat who is consuming dry food, must automatically not be drinking water.

I did not make the assumption that cats fed dry kibble must automatically not be drinking water.  I simply pointed out that cats in general do not have a strong thirst drive.

All of my cats were very strong water drinkers when on an all-dry diet.

My cats were strong drinkers as well.  Their urine went from sticky and dark on kibble, to not sticky and more straw colored on canned.  The urine balls increased in size and decreased odor on raw.  They still drink water...?

They now get the majority of wet canned but still get a bit of dry.

Why do you feed canned now?

A common cause of UTIs is stress which has nothing to do with diet, or lack or water. While PH is an important tool for monitoring acidity of urine, it is not a guarantee that a cat does or doesn't have crystals. Furthermore, crystals can happen in any PH, but are favored in an alkaline urine.

I thought the common cause of UTI's was E coli?  I also thought some crystals form regardless of pH...in any case both of these conditions can be greatly helped by WATER.  Which dry kibble lacks.

This thread started out asking the question whether dry food is bad. In some cases, some of it is. In some circumstances it is acceptable. It just depends on what and how much.

I'd much rather most cats get Meow Mix dry kibble than starve to death.  However, one of the things I see advised often is to rotate canned foods...wonder why we don't advise that about dry?   Something about digestive issues? 
 

oneandahalfcats

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No one is saying that a cat is guaranteed to get health issues from dry food, but the risk does increase, and many have chosen to avoid that increased risk by eliminating dry food altogether, not only for urinary concerns but also to help prevent issues such as constipation/megacolon and diabetes. Some choose to go 75% wet, for example, as a compromise. I used to offer one level tablespoon only at night, but I've recently removed all dry food from both Sebastian's and Boo's diet. I've seen improvement in both of them without dry food in terms of vomiting and bowel movements, even though they were only getting a small amount. Caesar is my challenge. I think, for the most part, we agree that a cat should not be on an all-dry diet (meaning no wet at all). An all-dry diet is very hard on their system.

I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to follow Dr. Pierson's advice, no matter how long they've owned cats. It has good information and is a solid reference for feline health and nutrition, in my opinion.

It's natural for us to post links to articles that support our argument, so I will do the same. Here's a comprehensive one from Dr. Jean Hofve, just updated this past December:

10 Reasons Why Dry Food Is Bad for Cats & Dogs

http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-dry-food-is-bad-for-cats-and-dogs/
Aren't they? (saying that dry food is absolutely guaranteed to cause all kinds of health concerns). Sure looks this way from where I am sitting. I am well aware of some of the negative aspects of dry food, but a lot of this has to do with bad ingredients. Not all dry foods are created equal, just as not all wet canned foods are created equal. That said, this thread is not about feeding an all-dry diet, and so I don't see the point to some of the comments that have been made here?

Your switch to no dry must be recent? Good for you. As for myself, I still feed a small amount of dry later in the day. My cats have never blocked, are healthy, have never had any issues with pancreatitis, or IBS, diarrhea, etc., so I must be doing something right.

I never said there was anything wrong with following Dr. Pierson, but I find when it comes to these kinds of discussions, the same parroted comments come out time and again. Wet and raw are the only way to go, and dry is evil, with no middle ground or objectivity, and it gets a little tiring after awhile. The OP mentioned how she was approached by a stranger in the grocery store who felt it was their place to lecture her on the evils of dry food. Is this any different from some of the lecturing that goes on here? I think not. There is a lot of judgement here around choice, and there shouldn't be. No diet is perfect!
 

andrya

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 There is a lot of judgement here around choice, and there shouldn't be. No diet is perfect!
l only saw people openly answering the OP's question, "ls it bad?" Each person has their own opinion, and four people offered their personal opinions without judgement of others' (you were one of the four).

Then you posted a second time, judging others' opinions by calling them "blanket statements".

If l'm one of these people  "...but I find when it comes to these kinds of discussions, the same parroted comments come out time and again", that's because it's my opinion on whether or not dry food is bad, which is what the OP solicited.
 

oneandahalfcats

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The comment about 'judgement' was in general. There is judgement that goes on here about choice, I have seen it happen, and posts have been removed because of it.

Referring to things said as 'blanket statements', is not a judgement but a suggestion that comments or statements made are not entirely true. Judging people for their choices by admonishing or denigrating them, IS a judgement.
 

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Aren't they? (saying that dry food is absolutely guaranteed to cause all kinds of health concerns). Sure looks this way from where I am sitting. I am well aware of some of the negative aspects of dry food, but a lot of this has to do with bad ingredients. Not all dry foods are created equal, just as not all wet canned foods are created equal. That said, this thread is not about feeding an all-dry diet, and so I don't see the point to some of the comments that have been made here?

Your switch to no dry must be recent? Good for you. As for myself, I still feed a small amount of dry later in the day. My cats have never blocked, are healthy, have never had any issues with pancreatitis, or IBS, diarrhea, etc., so I must be doing something right.

I never said there was anything wrong with following Dr. Pierson, but I find when it comes to these kinds of discussions, the same parroted comments come out time and again. Wet and raw are the only way to go, and dry is evil, with no middle ground or objectivity, and it gets a little tiring after awhile. The OP mentioned how she was approached by a stranger in the grocery store who felt it was their place to lecture her on the evils of dry food. Is this any different from some of the lecturing that goes on here? I think not. There is a lot of judgement here around choice, and there shouldn't be. No diet is perfect!
It didn't come across to me that way, so I guess we read into things differently. I did not read "absolutely guarantee" or any variation thereof in this thread. I'm really not even sure why I'm seeing a certain level of defensiveness and lashing out here.  
  You're taking my entire post like it was targeted at you, which it wasn't. I really don't understand. No one has berated you for feeding a small amount of dry. I used to do the same.
You expressed your thoughts and opinions and others have expressed there's. My purpose of mentioning all-dry was to express to the OP in general that that is usually the big concern that a lot of us agree on. I'm not even sure why I'm explaining myself.

Yes, my switch to no dry is recent. I am simply sharing my experience. Did this offend you, too? I'm glad you're kitties are doing well and especially that you got Max's constipation under control. Things changed pretty significantly when my kitties turned 13-14 years old. Old bodies can't handle things like they used to. A lot can change for a kitty in five years.
 
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