feeling very conflicted re: home cooked/raw vs. commercial

so i saw a holistic vet.  one of the only ones in the area.  i feel like i was severely taken advantage of and, after confirming that through price comparing with some other resources, i am composing a letter to let them know how i feel.  i fully expect no response and am prepared for that.

however, i have a friend who is a vet tech and when i mentioned i was considering feeding homemade, she brought up the concerns i knew she would have, mostly about balancing.  which i don't think is a problem with the premade supplements, or commercially prepared raw.

and obviously my 'nutritional consult' went poorly.  i was referred to a premade supplement mix to add with lamb and sweet potato for piglet.  the same kind of stuff we all know how to easily find online with reputable companies that provide the premade mix.  which makes me feel like i'm on my own (with your help and advice lol) on nutrition.  my problem is piglet and her kidneys.  i feel like commercially prepared raw wasn't serving her very well.  and feeding all of them high quality canned food like i am is getting very expensive - more expensive than it was to feed commercial freeze dried raw.  a lot more expensive.  i've done some number crunching and feel like i could feed my brood home cooked or raw for less money using a supplement like alnutrin, tcfeline, or my natural cat/feline instincts (who also have a kidney formula).  and i feel like no matter who i speak to vet-wise, i'm going to be misled.

does anyone else feel like that?  have any advice?  i know how much better samantha and jake seemed to be doing on raw and grain-free.  according to piglet's blood work, commercial raw may not have been the best bet for her.  but i truly feel that canned food cannot be the best for her, either.  to me, that's the difference between me eating whole foods that are prepared in their whole form or me eating lean cuisines and chips all the time.  yes, i have chips or crap food once in a while - and i often give my cats a kibble snack at bedtime (currently wellness complete health indoor, used to be nature's variety instinct). but i don't feel like feeding them kibble or cheap canned food is what is best for them.  i just feel like i don't know what to do and that i'll never find a vet who wants to work with me on that.  i think i'm just going to have to take them for their checkups and emergencies and just do the rest on my own...?

I can certainly appreciate your frustration.  I'd be frustrated too.  I don't know a lot about homemade kidney diets, but if/when the time comes I think I'll be contacting Dr. Pierson.  I know she wants to look over blood work before the actual consult, and I have no clue what her fees are. 

I have never felt misled (yet), but I have felt disappointed. I don't feel like going into details, but I did get tired of all the conflicting viewpoints on diet. I've worked with four vets on Sebastian's issues - two recommend raw, one recommends prescription canned and dry diets, and one recommends a cooked diet. I ended up just having to try some things and see what worked best for Sebastian.

Having a cat with kidney issues does make it more challenging I think. I have heard others mention Strombeck's cooked feline recipe for kidney disease.

Here's the link to the website: http://dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/   (on the left under "Diets-Cats", click on Renal Disease)

This TCS thread discusses Strombeck's renal diet: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/266872/home-cooked-for-crf-kitty

Well, I knew I was on my own, so I didn't experience the same frustration. Yeah, that really sucks.

I started with commercial, and learned about making my own raw.

But as to your kidney kitty? That thread actually discusses Dr. Pitcairn's recipe, not Dr. Strombeck's. mschauer worked with another TCS member to design a renal diet that was more species-appropriate than the original recipe. And as the supplements balanced the diet cooked, there's absolutely no reason not to use it raw if that is your preference.

But if you don't want to target the same REALLY low phos level as in the Rx diets, there's an easy option. Just substitute eggshell for bone in any recipe you want to use. Or use any meat and liver, and use the Alnutrin with eggshell to balance it. Rad Cat, which uses eggshell instead of bone, has phosphorus on a dry matter basis of 0.8%. This is a great number to target for a kidney kitty if they're not late stage - which, at that point, all you really care about is them eating anyway. So if you make your own food and use eggshell instead of bone, you lower the phos load substantially.

So with a homemade diet, you can tailor the phosphorus level by using eggshell - which provides the calcium and trace minerals without the additional phosphorus in bone. Or you can purchase Rad Cat as the commercial food. (All the other commercial raw foods use bone, which would be why your CKD kitty didn't do so well from a numbers perspective (if I understood correctly)). Or you can use the recipes developed by mschauer based on Dr. Pitcairn's diet, just adjusted to remove some of the non-species appropriate stuff.

You can lower the phosphorus even further by substituting 10% of the meat with egg WHITE. Egg white is high protein without phosphorus. But that's discussed in more detail in the thread to which GoHolistic provided a link.

@LDG, I don't know if it changes your recommendations at all, but poor Piglet is in stage 3 (according to IRIS staging) and that's after IV fluids. 

Thank you for correcting me and giving Dr. Pitcairn credit for those recipes in the other thread.

thanks everyone.  i've been struggling with this for about five days, after getting the spectacular 'nutritional consult'.  from what i've gathered reading through this site and a couple of other sites, using eggshell instead of bone is the best option for piglet.

i know i want to stay away from bone with piglet, and was considering using premix supplements (alnutrin) with eggshell instead of grinding up whole bones.  of course, buying the supplements separately and mixing up my own slurry seems just as easy, so i'm planning on a trip to some local stores today to find what i'll need.  i've already checked and i can purchase what i need to get started locally.  i'm going to start with chicken thigh meat because my cats seem to like chicken flavored things. 

i'm considering adding bone meal to the healthy cat's food instead of eggshell, and may try offering them a raw bone to see if they like gnawing on it (both of them have healthy teeth).  i've seen other diets that add pumpkin puree to the raw meat and slurry - does anyone have any insight into that?  or why my 'nutrition consultant' added sweet potato?  i know tcfeline's site has a separate 'low protein' recipe that includes either pumpkin or yams.  

edit to add: this is the tcfeline recipe:  http://tcfeline.com/2012/04/27/reduced-protein-cat-food/

I'm assuming the sweet potato is in there to lower the phosphorus content. But I don't know, and I don't know what benefits it would provide. I do know CRF kitties tend to have issues with constipation, so perhaps the potato helps with that? Or pumpkin could potentially be a good addition to her diet.

The diet mschauer adapted from Dr. Pitcairn would be appropriate.

Perhaps sweet potato and pumpkin is added to also lower protein content, since some still think that is necessary in late stages of CRF.    Both sweet potato and pumpkin are super high in vitamin A, which may take the place of using, for example, liver. 

Just thinking "out loud"...

GoHolistic said:

 
Perhaps sweet potato and pumpkin is added to also lower protein content, since some still think that is necessary in late stages of CRF. 

  Both sweet potato and pumpkin are super high in vitamin A, which may take the place of using, for example, liver. 

Just thinking "out loud"...

Click to expand...

oooh i like your thinking out loud.  i'm not going to lie - the idea of handling liver makes me very, very uncomfortable.  i'm about 90% vegetarian and do not often cook meat in my home (once or twice a month, and that only started recently).  not all of the recipes i've read require using liver or heart (thankfully); i'm planning on adding extra taurine for the missing heart and sucking it up with the livers for my healthy cats (or make my husband toss those in the grinder lol).  

since all of my cats are currently eating foods that contain some vegetables (fiber), i'm considering adding a bit of pumpkin or sweet potato to all of their food to start, like the recipe i linked to above.  i've purchased quality fish oil capsules sourced from small fish; i won't be adding cod liver oil; i'll use eggshell powder for calcium.  that's for piglet; for the others i'm going to add bonemeal for human consumption.  how does that sound to you all?  i have to thank you all for your support.  i've been all over the internet and just driven myself nuts trying to figure out how to accomplish what i want to accomplish.  i'm hoping to grind up my first batch this weekend - i have to buy the grinder attachment for my kitchen aid stand mixer and am heading out to a local farm to see about sourcing some chicken from them.  they have a HUGE egg laying group of chicken and i know they must do SOMETHING with those hens when they stop laying!

GoHolistic said:

 
Perhaps sweet potato and pumpkin is added to also lower protein content, since some still think that is necessary in late stages of CRF. 

  Both sweet potato and pumpkin are super high in vitamin A, which may take the place of using, for example, liver. 

Just thinking "out loud"...

Click to expand...

stephgas said:

 
oooh i like your thinking out loud.  i'm not going to lie - the idea of handling liver makes me very, very uncomfortable.  i'm about 90% vegetarian and do not often cook meat in my home (once or twice a month, and that only started recently).  not all of the recipes i've read require using liver or heart (thankfully); i'm planning on adding extra taurine for the missing heart and sucking it up with the livers for my healthy cats (or make my husband toss those in the grinder lol).  

Click to expand...

I am sorry to hijack your thread, I just want to add something about the liver issue: having a cat that would not touch liver, raw of freeze dried, I have been doing quite a lot of reading on what I could substitute it for, and so far I am at loss. Depending on the protein (chicken, turkey, duck, rabbit, pork or beef liver), the nutrition analysis includes Vitamin A, Vitamin B, Vitamin C, Calcium, Potassium, Sodium, Iron.

catnutrition.org and blakkatz.com say that if you can't source liver, then replace with Vitamin A and Vitamin D (40 000 iu Vit A and 1600 iu Vit D equivalent for 200 grams of chicken liver).

I did not research (yet) the nutrient profiles of pumpkin and sweetpotatoes, but I would be interested in learning more about "best" replacements (although I would not make 10% of Sophie's diet pumpkin) - I guess raw liver is best, but second best? Freeze dried liver? Third best? Vit A and D softgels? Forth best?

GoHolistic said:

Perhaps sweet potato and pumpkin is added to also lower protein content, since some still think that is necessary in late stages of CRF.  :dk:   Both sweet potato and pumpkin are super high in vitamin A, which may take the place of using, for example, liver.  :dk:

Just thinking "out loud"...

Click to expand...

Sweet potato and pumpkin can't be in there for vitamin A. Any nutritionist would know that cats lack the digestive enzyme needed to convert beta carotene into vitamin A. Sweet potato and pumpkin have a lot of beta carotene - which means a lot of vitamin A for people and dogs - but zero for cats. Cats can only use vitamin A when it is pre-formed.

I am not a feline "nutritionist" at a level in which I would remember this, so thanks for pointing that out.

Also, I think sweet potato in particular is higher in natural sugars, so that's something else to consider.

GoHolistic said:

I am not a feline "nutritionist" at a level in which I would remember this, so thanks for pointing that out.

Click to expand...

I just meant that the vet practice where the OP received the advice - that "nutritionist" would know - or should know - that cats can't convert beta carotene into vitamin A, so it wouldn't have been the reason for its inclusion.

It would be so much easier if cats' bodies worked like ours!

stephgas, are you leaning towards a particular recipe? Cooked or raw?

okay, re: the sweet potato in my original 'recipe' from the 'nutritionist': it was a diet for a ckf/ckd cat made with a premix that has vit a in it, so i'm assuming it has something to do with fiber or just more calories, less protein.  most of the diets i've seen that include pumpkin or sweet potato are made with a premix or vit a added in, so i definitely don't think it's about the vitamins.

i'm leaning toward raw.  i don't see any reason to cook anything; i know how to safely handle meat, and i know that my cat's digestive systems can handle the bacteria.  as long as i can get my meat from a reputable source, there's no reason to cook it.  

and i actually just received a response from the local farm we usually purchase our eggs from.  they sell their spent hens (laying hens that are past their laying days) but usually sell them live and whole.  since i don't dress chickens (UNLESS IT INVOLVES BOWTIES HOW COULD I RESIST THAT) i don't want them like that.  the owner said they sometimes have them already plucked and packaged, but i'm trying to figure out if i can just buy thighs and livers or what.  if she only sells them whole, i may have someone to go in halvsies with me and take the breast meat for their dog.  

so, i think this would be for piglet my ckf/ckd kitty:

2lbs ground meat without bone

400mg vitamin b complex

400iu vitamin e

4000mg taurine

4000mg fish oil

2 egg yolks

2 eggshells worth of powder

1c water

1c pumpkin?  since it's not there for vitamins or anything, i'm thinking of starting with 1c and seeing how it works.

for healthy kitties:

4lbs ground meat without bone

7oz chicken livers

200mg vitamin b complex

800iu vitamin e

6000mg taurine

5000mg fish oil

4 egg yolks

5tbsp bone meal 

2c water

maybe some pumpkin?

i'm planning on freezing the food in ice cube trays for approximately 1+ ounce serving sizes and feeding them three times a day.  based on the recipes i've found on other sites, i think the nutrition in these seems about right.  does anyone see anything missing or have any ideas?  

@mschauer any thoughts?

stephgas, have you compared your proposed recipes to the ones mschauer already analyzed and adjusted? I do think you're better off with the salmon oil vs. the safflower oil, but ... :dk:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/266872/home-cooked-for-crf-kitty#post_3430599

I have noticed that with the lower phosphorus diets, the Ca ratio tends to be much higher than normal. I wonder if that's why CRF cats are prone to constipation? :dk:

I've never used pumpkin in a recipe, and I don't make ground. So I have no idea what kind of volume your proposed recipes make, nor how much pumpkin that would be in relation to the amount of food.

I don't know anything about working with bone meal, just eggshell or freeze dried bone ( http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs ). I would use a more precise measurement for the eggshell in your CRF recipe. One large egg usually provides about one teaspoon of eggshell powder: it only takes 1/2 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell powder to balance each pound of meat/organ. You're proposing an amount that would be about double that.

LDG said:

@mschauer any thoughts?

stephgas, have you compared your proposed recipes to the ones mschauer already analyzed and adjusted? I do think you're better off with the salmon oil vs. the safflower oil, but ...

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/266872/home-cooked-for-crf-kitty#post_3430599

I have noticed that with the lower phosphorus diets, the Ca ratio tends to be much higher than normal. I wonder if that's why CRF cats are prone to constipation?

I've never used pumpkin in a recipe, and I don't make ground. So I have no idea what kind of volume your proposed recipes make, nor how much pumpkin that would be in relation to the amount of food.

I don't know anything about working with bone meal, just eggshell or freeze dried bone ( http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs ). I would use a more precise measurement for the eggshell in your CRF recipe. One large egg usually provides about one teaspoon of eggshell powder: it only takes 1/2 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell powder to balance each pound of meat/organ. You're proposing an amount that would be about double that.

Click to expand...

thanks for your thoughts i was reading through other threads and read about storing the eggshell powder; i'll probably start doing that so i can be more precise.  the bone meal recipe is from catnutrition.org.  i looked at a lot of the recipes in that thread, and i do like the one without liver because i'm grossed out by that.  but i know it's important.

i'm active on tanya's ckd board and a yahoo group about cats and raw food, i'm just not finding anything definitive.  i'm not used to that! 

might it be possible that the sweet potato and pumpkin in the recipes would be added for taste, because many cats love sweet potato and (i think) a good many like pumpkin too?

mickNsnicks2mom said:

 
might it be possible that the sweet potato and pumpkin in the recipes would be added for taste, because many cats love sweet potato and (i think) a good many like pumpkin too?

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possible.  i know both provide dietary fiber and are recommended when your cat has constipation, diarrhea, or hairballs (pumpkin only).  i can't imagine a cat saying no to just meat.  even my picky piglet licks at cooked meat if i offer her a taste.  i'm hoping when i offer her yummy raw meat she'll gobble it up.

stephgas said:

 
i'm hoping when i offer her yummy raw meat she'll gobble it up.

Click to expand...

I hope so, too!