raw food and kidney issues

i'm in the process of interviewing new vets.  i no longer fully trust my old vet after piglet's tooth issues.  she was dx'd with FORL by a veterinary dentist and her kidneys were not functioning well at all prior to surgery.  i have not had blood work done since surgery, but she was on iv fluids for 24 hours before surgery and it made a very positive impact on her renal values.  

i had all three of my fur babies on what i consider a 'modified raw' diet.  i was feeding nature's variety instinct kibble (chicken variety) and stella & chewy's freeze dried raw daily.  i was shooting for 220-250 cal per cat and tried to have half from kibble and half from the stella & chewy's mixed with nice, warm water (piglet prefers room-temp or warm food).  i had often wondered about going all the way and making my own raw food, but two things stopped me: no grinder and i'm 90% vegetarian.  

ultimately, piglet's most recent renal values had her in late stage 2/early stage 3 kidney failure.  she has lost all four canine teeth (crown amputation).  my old vet would not outright admonish me for feeding modified raw, but said that raw diets are not good for all cats, hinting that it may have had something to do with piglet's kidney failure.  i don't know if i understand how.  it's not high carb, it's quality protein sources, it's not really high phosphorous (the varieties i was feeding at least)... i've been feeding wellness complete health indoor kibble for their nighttime snack and canned food for breakfast and dinner.  the cost is KILLING me!  i never realized how much i was saving feeding raw.  ugh.  i've been feeding numerous canned options:  wellness, wellness core, nature's variety instinct and pride, merrick, evo, weruva.  we've stopped feeding weruva & pride because the calorie content is so freaking low i'd have to feed like 6 cans a day for all three cats.  (possible exaggeration, whatever).

so, here we go.  the meat and bones (lol) of my question have to do with special needs kitties and raw feeding.  has anyone had any experience feeding cats any sort of raw food when they have kidney failure or something like that?  i have a kitchen aid mixer now, which i could get a grinder for, but i don't think i should give piglet bones to chew on anyway with the FORL, so i'd probably get TCfeline or something and go that route if i did homemade raw.  i've looked at this from so many different angles i think i've confused the heck out of myself.  i'd love other viewpoints and opinions!

I know a number of people feeding CRF kitties raw food. I think your vet has the thinking upside down. Chronic mild dehydration is definitely a contributor to kidney failure - in all mammals. It is theorized that feeding species-inappropriate foods, taxing the organs, may be a contributor. Instinct is a relatively low carb kibble - but most are not.

https://www.wellvet.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=ART_CATKIDNEY

As to the protein, what cats with kidney disease need is high quality protein. And that you pretty much have to make at home.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/08/06/kidney-disease-in-cats.aspx

http://feline-nutrition.org/health/diet-kidney-disease-and-the-urinary-tract

If you look at the commercial raw food, Rad Cat, made with eggshell, not bone, you'll see that the phos is 0.8% on a dry matter basis. This is a great number for a CRF kitty - and yet is with fresh, human grade food, no fillers, no additives, minimally processed, with a very simple ingredient list.

This is very easy to make at home. And you don't need a grinder that will handle bone. A food processor is all you really need. Or for larger batches, maybe a food processor with a meat grinder attachment (like for making sausage).

But you can use any protein. We have a small freezer, so we bought a used small chest freezer on craigslist (for $35), and put it out on the deck, covered in a tarp! This way we can buy large amounts of meat when it's on sale, and this saves a lot of money. We're saving money feeding raw, but we weren't feeding kibble, and we were feeding rather expensive canned food. But the way we looked at it was that even if it ended up costing us the same amount, we'd be trading up and feeding them a much higher quality diet.

I personally would recommend the Alnutrin with eggshell powder over the TCfeline. With the Alnutrin, you would need to include liver, and that might be difficult for you to work with. There are a number of vegetarians (and a few vegans, in fact) feeding raw on the forum. I know it can be a challenge... but I guess you get used to it? :dk: Or for the sake of your kitty's health, you get over it? :dk:

My only issue with TCfeline is that it includes xanthan gum. I don't know why they need to "improve" the texture of the hydrated product. But there you have it. Alnutrin with eggshell is very bare bones, high quality, and brings meat and liver up to AAFCO. I would add an omega 3 to it, but best to add it at meal time: 500mg of salmon or krill oil daily.

But all you'd need to do is purchase any protein, any liver, and make the proportion 90% - 93% meat, 7% - 10% liver, and add the Alnutrin with eggshell. Of course, you could include 5% "other secreting organ," as in the prey model raw model, if you have easy access to kidney.

That said, many cats do like the TCfeline with calcium. And all that requires is meat, so it's easier for you / on you. Or you could make some batches with one, and some with the other. No need to stick to just one.

I am feeding a stage1/stage2 kidney disease cat.  I am following the catinfo.org recipe without bones, bones add phosphorus to the diet, so I just add eggshells for calcium.    Do you know your cat's blood levels, like phophorus?  You can add things like phosphorus binders to the diet to help. 

Here are a couple of good websites on it:

http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-kidney-disease-phosphorus-and-raw-diets

http://www.radfood.com/faq/is_rad_cat_an_option_for_my_cat_with_renal_disease_and_flutd

http://consciouscat.net/2011/10/17/kidney-failure-and-diet-in-cats/

My kitty will have bloodwork next month so we will see if the diet is helping her or not.  But when I told my dad (a semi-retired vet who has been a vet for 40+ years) that she had stage 1/2 kidney disease his first comment was, is she eating the raw diet?  If not feed that is best.  I LOVE my dad

ETA my Chihuahua was on a prescription Urinary Diet and her kidney values (BUN/PHOS) we elevated, she has been on raw for 3 years now and her Kidney functions are low end normal....so raw doesn't hurt the kidneys as most vets think it does.

cprcheetah said:

http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-kidney-disease-phosphorus-and-raw-diets

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I love this quote from this link:

"Recognising that raw meat diets are not high in protein is important. They are appropriate protein levels for an obligate carnivore."

thanks.  i had done so much research and tried to find something that was convenient enough for my husband to stick to (he's not exactly a cat person and almost flat out refuses to feed them anything more complicated than canned food) and okay for me - i have an immune disorder and suffer from fatigue often, as well as working and going to school.  so it was important for me to have something that was easy (nature's variety instinct) and safe (stella & chewy's raw).  now that i understand better what the 'risks' with raw are, i'm less concerned about my safety.

i have her numbers somewhere; they were originally really bad, and got better when we took piglet off raw and went to canned i have a feeling that was more about the tooth issue.  i have a feeling that when we do get her next round of blood work, her kidney values will have improved now that the offending teeth are gone.

but that's another concern i have - the teeth.  piglet has lost all four canines and two premolars - one on each side.  between the teeth and the phosphorus in the bones, i think that's what was making her kidney function even worse.  i'm going to check out alnutrin and try to find a vet who knows *something* about raw/barf feeding.

From what I understand, even for a CRF kitty, you still need SOME phosphorous, because it balances with calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.

Phosphorous is found in meat as well as bones.

You can certainly lower the phosphorous content by using eggshell instead of bone, feeding meats low in phosphorous, as well as using cooked egg white to substitute a small portion of meat.

The math geniuses here (not I!) can give you a better idea of how to balance it all out.

As for the teeth... I have a 17 year old who has all of about 6 teeth left.  She has learned to slurp up her chopped meals quite well.

As to being vegetarian, well... that's all well and good for YOU, but as you are obviously aware, kitty is a carnivore... and an obligate one at that.  Put your mindset into what's natural and healthy for her.  It might help to have a board and set of utensils that you use only for her food. 

Vets trained in alternative medicines often have some knowledge of nutrition and support raw feeding. You can search at the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association. http://www.ahvma.org

thanks @LDG  - i found a vet on that list that's not *too* far away (maybe a 35 minute drive). i called to speak with someone in the office and it sounds like a good fit for us. instead of jumping in with all cats, we're going to bring piglet over on saturday to meet the doctor and have a renal panel done.

it's about $10 more per office visit, which when you think about it, isn't much for a vet who will listen to me and not chastise me for wanting to feed raw.  i was told nutrition is one of his areas of interest and he's very excited to work with patients and their caregivers on special diets - whether it's raw, homemade, or commercial. i think that's what sold me.  even if we decide to stick with commercial foods, he will be willing to work out something that will work for our cats.

Oh that's great!  And, actually, the $10 more isn't much - most vets that practice holistic medicine, whatever form it is, pay for additional training in those fields. Let us know how it goes!

LDG said:

My only issue with TCfeline is that it includes xanthan gum. I don't know why they need to "improve" the texture of the hydrated product.

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Xanthan gum is added to TCFeline as a fiber source not because of  any texture issue.

http://tcfeline.com/2011/03/18/xanthan-gum/

The purpose of Xanthan Gum in the TCfeline premix is for texture.

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LDG said:

http://tcfeline.com/2011/03/18/xanthan-gum/

The purpose of Xanthan Gum in the TCfeline premix is for texture.

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Huh, that's interesting. That link is to the Canadian TCFeline manufacturer. It was in a discussion with the US manufacturer that I was told they add it for fiber. It's a soluble fiber. Maybe both are true. Adding fiber does change the texture.

so i posted an update about piglet's first visit to the new holistic vet http://www.thecatsite.com/t/277196/first-visit-to-a-new-holistic-vet.  we paid an inordinate amount of money for a consult with a nutritionist who will look at piglet's records and develop a diet for her.  the questionnaire had questions about what we've fed in the past, what her likes and dislikes are, if she eats any people food, what she doesn't like, what her health issues have been, her weight.... tons of stuff.  the nutritionist will go over all of that and develop a plan for us to feed piglet.  i'm hoping it will be safe for the other cats too, because they routinely finish each other's foods.

it asked about what products i'd like to feed her: protein sources like chicken, duck, beef, lamb, tofu (really?) etc.  and then it asked about grain products - but it is a questionnaire used for multiple different types of animals.  i'm really hoping to get all my cats on raw.  in my mind, i'm thinking i'll do whatever they say for piglet and then maybe use one of the premixes for samantha and jake (my healthy cats).  i'm kind of against the idea of using real bone in their food for a few reasons, one being piglet's dental issues.  another being i don't really have the money to invest in that kind of grinder.  i have a kitchen aid and am getting the grinding accessory; i also have a food processor that can handle meat.  so i know i have the ability to grind bone-free meat.  i'm very good at deboning pieced chickens, and we have fairly easy access to some farms where we can buy good quality chicken and probably lamb, maybe ducks.  has anyone used an attachment like that for a stand mixer to grind meats?  tia

I have used the Kitchenaid grinder attachnent to grind boneless meat, and it worked fine. I only did small batches, so I am not sure how it would handle large batches.

thanks.  i'm thinking if i do it, i'm only going to make a week's worth of food at a time.  with three cats and a small freezer, there's a limit.