agar-agar = carrageenan?

abbyntim

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Yesterday I introduced my cats to a new food: Lotus Just Juicy turkey. This food advertises on its label that it contains no carrageenan, guar gum, or xantham gum. Great! Because my cat has food sensitivities and these are all suspect ingredients, I thought I found a nice food to add to our rotation.

This morning and this afternoon, I caught my cat drooling, licking his lips, and shaking his head. All signs of nausea and acid reflux for him. I gave him a 1/4 tab of Pepcid to help; excess nausea and stomach acid comes up into his mouth and causes his lower lip to swell. I hoped it's not the new food.

Meanwhile, I took a closer look at the label of the new food and see there are two ingredients that do not thrill me: potato starch and agar-agar. Doing a little research on agar-agar, I see it is derived from red seaweed, just like carrageenan. I am not able to find the same controversial information as is available regarding carrageenan, but some sources describe them as almost identical.

Here is the entire list of ingredients:

Turkey, Turkey Broth, Potato Starch, Carrots, Calcium Lactate, Olive Oil, Monosodium Phosphate, Salt, Agar-Agar, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Niacin, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

What do you think? As I strongly suspect carrageenan in my cat's intestinal problems, should I stop this food that contains agar-agar or see how it goes? Getting closer and closer to home-cooking ...
 
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denice

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From what I can understand they have a slightly different chemical makeup but are basically the same thing.  I don't know how reliable it is but I found this website http://therawexplorer.com/2013/04/26/dodgy-ingredients-carrageenan/    What really stuck out to me about half way down in all caps is the statement agar agar is full of carrageenan.  I am sure that someone who knows more about it will comment.  Most of what I found involved the different chemical structure.  I know what you mean about homemade, there is some kind of issue with all commercial foods.
 
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abbyntim

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Thanks, Denice! The statement in the link you provided is a little alarming. I read some additional sources, but just don't know enough to make sense of this. I hope someone who knows more about this will comment.

Meanwhile, I reviewed my notes over the past few days and see signs of potential tummy upset. Hard to know if it's due to an actual ingredient in the food that doesn't agree with him, or is due to simply a food transition. The cats ate 3/4 of a can this morning and a full can yesterday morning. What I've noticed since that feeding yesterday morning: 1) Tim got in the litter box yesterday morning and scratched and scratched, but did not have a BM; 2) last night, he did the same thing; after I put him back in the box, he did; 3) he had drooling and nausea today for the first time since April 3 and I had to give him a Pepcid AC; 4) tonight he went in the litter box and scratched and scratched and even squatted, then stopped and got out of the box; I put him back in and he got back out.

My guy seems to still have a very sensitive tummy. And the box behavior concerns me, as I am weaning him off Cisapride. It might be best if I stop this food. Guess I'll be shopping for a supplement, as I think I will feed him half home-cooked and half Nature's Variety Instinct canned until we can get him off Cisapride and try raw.

I am also interested in others' thoughts regarding what I am seeing in my poor cat: Is this consistent with an ingredient that doesn't agree with him, or is it normal food transition stuff? Yesterday morning, the cats ate mostly the new food with a small amount of their old food blended in. This morning, they ate half and half blended together. Last night and this evening, they ate their old food. They eat all canned food.
 

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It's hard to say for sure what the cause may be this early in the game. I think I would stop the new food, wait for symptoms to subside and then maybe retry.

My oldest can no longer tolerate carrageenan. He, too, eats Instinct (limited ingredient turkey formula.) When Lucky eats anything with carrageenan, he has terrible smelling diarrhea that starts the same day. It takes about 3 days for it to clear out of his system.

My local PerSmart stated carrying Nulo in a grain-free, carrageenan-free formula. Lucky can eat it once every 5 days or so without problem, but anymore and it messes his stomach up. I will have to go back and see if it has agar-agar in it as a substitute.
 
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abbyntim

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Thanks, CatPack! Tim's tummy was really gurgling last night, but he seemed in good spirits and wasn't showing signs of nausea. I had come to a similar conclusion - stop the food and wait for everything to "normalize", then try again. Both cats have had their first plates this morning, without the new food plus bone broth for Tim, and I'm waiting to see what happens in the litterbox. At least appetites are good this morning and both cats are showing a little more interest in food than they showed last night.

I checked out Nulo online and it does, indeed, include agar-agar:

Turkey, Turkey Liver, Chicken, Turkey Broth, Tuna, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Agar-Agar, Cranberries, Pumpkin, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride Tricalcium Phosphate, Yucca Schidigera, Taurine, Salt, Tomatoes, Kelp, Magnesium Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D2 Supplement, Folic Acid.

Maybe those kitties that have problems with carrageenan need to stay away from agar-agar.
 
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raintyger

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Thanks, CatPack! Tim's tummy was really gurgling last night, but he seemed in good spirits and wasn't showing signs of nausea. I had come to a similar conclusion - stop the food and wait for everything to "normalize", then try again. Both cats have had their first plates this morning, without the new food plus bone broth for Tim, and I'm waiting to see what happens in the litterbox. At least appetites are good this morning and both cats are showing a little more interest in food than they showed last night.
I don't know about the agar agar and it's relationship to carrageenan, but I think you're doing the right thing, waiting for normalization. I had a kitty with chronic constipation, and one of the things I learned was that I should limit changes to only one at a time so I could see the effects and attribute it to that change. So I would wean off cisapride first. Then you'll know if the cisapride absence is causing adverse litterbox issues. After that, experiment with food.
 

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From what I can understand they have a slightly different chemical makeup but are basically the same thing.  I don't know how reliable it is but I found this website http://therawexplorer.com/2013/04/26/dodgy-ingredients-carrageenan/   What really stuck out to me about half way down in all caps is the statement agar agar is full of carrageenan.  I am sure that someone who knows more about it will comment.  Most of what I found involved the different chemical structure.  I know what you mean about homemade, there is some kind of issue with all commercial foods.

Maybe those kitties that have problems with carrageenan need to stay away from agar-agar.

I look at it like this: if a cat is sensitive to corn, even though corn meal, corn gluten, and cornstarch all have different chemical structures - they're all from corn and can trigger the problem. I suspect that if carrageenan triggers a reaction, the agar-agar is also likely to do the same. :(
 

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Thanks for the info AbbyNTim. Even though Lucky seems to tolerate agar-agar in small quantities, I think we'll add it to his "do not consume" list. I'd rather avoid any potential problem he may develop later.

I'm very lucky that he is not a picky eater. He's quite content eating the Instinct LID Turkey at every meal, though I do through in the occasional can of Simply Nourish stew every now and than for variety.
 
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abbyntim

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I don't know about the agar agar and it's relationship to carrageenan, but I think you're doing the right thing, waiting for normalization. I had a kitty with chronic constipation, and one of the things I learned was that I should limit changes to only one at a time so I could see the effects and attribute it to that change. So I would wean off cisapride first. Then you'll know if the cisapride absence is causing adverse litterbox issues. After that, experiment with food.
I think you're right. And this was my initial thought until I ran across this food. It looked so good and I've wanted to get the cats off a single brand. But I do need to stick to the original plan, get Tim off cisapride, then experiment with food. BTW, no new food today, no drooling or other signs of nausea, and no funny litter box business so far.
I look at it like this: if a cat is sensitive to corn, even though corn meal, corn gluten, and cornstarch all have different chemical structures - they're all from corn and can trigger the problem. I suspect that if carrageenan triggers a reaction, the agar-agar is also likely to do the same.
I am afraid you are right. Can't wait until Tim's off cisapride so we can try raw. Meanwhile, I am preparing to add home-cooked to the Nature's Variety Instinct that he's doing pretty well on.
Thanks for the info AbbyNTim. Even though Lucky seems to tolerate agar-agar in small quantities, I think we'll add it to his "do not consume" list. I'd rather avoid any potential problem he may develop later.

I'm very lucky that he is not a picky eater. He's quite content eating the Instinct LID Turkey at every meal, though I do through in the occasional can of Simply Nourish stew every now and than for variety.
Tim was so, so sick in late January and early February, I just can't have him go through that again. I am lucky Tim is not picky at all, but it seems our list of "suspect ingredients" is growing: fish, chicken, carrageenan, xantham gum, guar gum, and now possibly agar-agar; he should be more picky! Home cooking is looking better and better.
 

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I am afraid you are right. Can't wait until Tim's off cisapride so we can try raw. Meanwhile, I am preparing to add home-cooked to the Nature's Variety Instinct that he's doing pretty well on.
If Tim has constipational issues, then be aware that many cats on raw don't have daily bowel movements. I would transition very slowly so you can monitor the slow down and not be confronted with a sudden absence that could be normal--or could be constipation. I do remember that on the Yahoo! megacolon and chronic constipation group one of the members had a holistic vet who did not recommend raw for kitties with chronic constipation. They said there was a chance of bone pieces causing problems, I don't know exactly what. But if you stick with very finely ground bone or egg powder for the calcium I would think it would address that issue.
 
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abbyntim

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If Tim has constipational issues, then be aware that many cats on raw don't have daily bowel movements. I would transition very slowly so you can monitor the slow down and not be confronted with a sudden absence that could be normal--or could be constipation. I do remember that on the Yahoo! megacolon and chronic constipation group one of the members had a holistic vet who did not recommend raw for kitties with chronic constipation. They said there was a chance of bone pieces causing problems, I don't know exactly what. But if you stick with very finely ground bone or egg powder for the calcium I would think it would address that issue.
Thanks for this. I know many cats on raw go every two to three days; the holistic vet has mentioned this and I've ready just about every "poop" thread in the raw feeding forum. I was in a panic last week when Tim decided to go roughly every 36 hours instead of his normal 24 hours for most of the week. But now I'm okay with it. As we "clean up" his canned food diet and feed him a bit less, because he could stand to lose a little weight, I now believe he is going when he needs to (not necessarily because cisapride is helping him along). But I had to review all of my notes from last week to see this; now I think Tim is doing well.

Our holistic vet agrees about the potential bone issue and we considering brands with ground egg shell and very finely ground bone and a lower bone percentage. That will a very slow transition so we can monitor him closely; she has suggested we start with just one meal a week and slowly work up to three, then stay there for a while (of course, after he's off cisapride). This is one of my biggest potential concerns about raw: While I think it will be helpful for his intestinal issues, I don't want to cause problems with bones. At the same time, we think Tim's constipation was brought on by his diet (previously all kibble with a small daily snack of canned), so our hope is changing his diet resolves the constipation.
 

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Thanks for this. I know many cats on raw go every two to three days; the holistic vet has mentioned this and I've ready just about every "poop" thread in the raw feeding forum. I was in a panic last week when Tim decided to go roughly every 36 hours instead of his normal 24 hours for most of the week. But now I'm okay with it. As we "clean up" his canned food diet and feed him a bit less, because he could stand to lose a little weight, I now believe he is going when he needs to (not necessarily because cisapride is helping him along). But I had to review all of my notes from last week to see this; now I think Tim is doing well.

Our holistic vet agrees about the potential bone issue and we considering brands with ground egg shell and very finely ground bone and a lower bone percentage. That will a very slow transition so we can monitor him closely; she has suggested we start with just one meal a week and slowly work up to three, then stay there for a while (of course, after he's off cisapride). This is one of my biggest potential concerns about raw: While I think it will be helpful for his intestinal issues, I don't want to cause problems with bones. At the same time, we think Tim's constipation was brought on by his diet (previously all kibble with a small daily snack of canned), so our hope is changing his diet resolves the constipation.
EXCELLENT! I am so happy about several things you said in your post:

1. 36 hours. Not great, but for most kitties not an emergency level, either. Our vet said not to let it go beyond 3 days.

2. You're keeping notes. I experimented a lot, and kept a journal. I was constantly referring to it. You can only keep so much in memory.

3. You're seeing a holistic vet who will support you through the raw switchover, and they are taking into account the constipational issues.

Good job, Tim couldn't ask for more!
 

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Just catching up here...

Did you introduce the Lotus slowly? Like a very tiny bit? Some kitties will get an upset tummy when they eat too much of a new food at first.

It's funny how all cats are different. I never noticed any specific bad reactions in Sebastian from carrageenan, but I do try to avoid it in general because of his pancreatitis. I had given him the Lotus Just Juicy Turkey toward the end of his last turkey rotation and it did not upset his stomach, so I guess the agar-agar didn't bother him. I had planned to rotate between NV and Lotus.

I did find this from a college faculty member in regards to carrageenan vs. agar-agar: http://www.baumancollege.org/forum/index.php?topic=13830.0

From what I read here, it's not so much the plant/compounds as it is the extraction/manufacturing process, which differ between the two. 


I cannot find any articles or studies specifically about agar-agar from reputable sites. 
 
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abbyntim

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EXCELLENT! I am so happy about several things you said in your post:

1. 36 hours. Not great, but for most kitties not an emergency level, either. Our vet said not to let it go beyond 3 days.

2. You're keeping notes. I experimented a lot, and kept a journal. I was constantly referring to it. You can only keep so much in memory.

3. You're seeing a holistic vet who will support you through the raw switchover, and they are taking into account the constipational issues.

Good job, Tim couldn't ask for more!
Thanks! :)

1. To be honest, the 36-hour stretches make me nervous. He was almost exactly 24 hours when on daily cisapride, and even every other day. When we started skipping two days, he had a few more of these stretches. Then last week, when we reduced his food a bit, it was mostly 36 hours. But the volume is about the same whether it's 24 or 36 hours and he has no trouble in the box, so I am hoping everything is working as it should. The conventional vet said not to let it go beyond three days, but the holistic vet wants us to contact her if he hasn't gone in 48 hours.

2. I am pretty sure at least one person here suggested I keep notes, and I read other posts where people talked about their notes. My notes have become increasingly detailed and include everything I do and observe, plus I am now adding some of my thoughts. It's pretty basic - just a daily entry in my Google calendar that lets me access just about anywhere.

3. I don't know what I would do without the holistic vet. The conventional vet recently told me Tim needs to be on cisapride for life; this was without trying anything else. The holistic vet agreed that some cats do need to be on it for life, but we won't know if Tim is one of those cats unless we try weaning him off.
 
Just catching up here...

Did you introduce the Lotus slowly? Like a very tiny bit? Some kitties will get an upset tummy when they eat too much of a new food at first.

It's funny how all cats are different. I never noticed any specific bad reactions in Sebastian from carrageenan, but I do try to avoid it in general because of his pancreatitis. I had given him the Lotus Just Juicy Turkey toward the end of his last turkey rotation and it did not upset his stomach, so I guess the agar-agar didn't bother him. I had planned to rotate between NV and Lotus.

I did find this from a college faculty member in regards to carrageenan vs. agar-agar: http://www.baumancollege.org/forum/index.php?topic=13830.0

From what I read here, it's not so much the plant/compounds as it is the extraction/manufacturing process, which differ between the two. 


I cannot find any articles or studies specifically about agar-agar from reputable sites. 
I did not introduce it slowly- I fed them mostly Lotus on Friday morning, then half each of Lotus and NVI on Saturday morning. In the past, the cats ate mostly Wellness canned grain-free plus a variety of others and did not have trouble. But many things have changed since then. This might be part of the problem- too quick of an introduction. But I think I will hold off on introducing any new foods until Tim is off cisapride and appears to be functioning fine. The only thing I plan to add is more home-cooked. I am already giving them up to 10% of their calories in cooked turkey and plan to increase that amount, which is why I'm now looking for a food supplement.

I am not 100% certain Tim reacts to carrageenan, but he violently vomited a variety of foods and one of the common ingredient in them is carrageenan. I recently fed him chicken after more than two months of elimination and he reacted to that, so I know chicken is a problem. He violently vomited chicken with xantham gum, and had mild tummy upset with other proteins with xantham gum. Guar gum is in most of these foods, as well, so I'm not sure exactly which ingredient causes the problems. I am really hoping it's not guar gum; as you know, it's in just about every food. I had not planned to experiment with any of these ingredients until he is off cisapride. And I may not even bother experimenting, as home-cooking is looking better and more feasible.

Thanks for the link regarding carrageenan versus agar-agar. Something more to consider, as I had read previously that the problem with carrageenan is the processing.
 

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My Boo has chronic constipation and I start to get worried after 24 hours. If he doesn't go at least once every 24 hours, he can get seriously backed up, which is no fun for either of us. 


Hmm... yes, giving it to him cold turkey without a slow introduction could have upset Tim's tummy. I can't do this with Sebastian, either, or it could make him nauseous. When I want to introduce something, I give him his regular food, and either beside or after his regular food, I will put down about a nickel-sized amount of a new food (very little bit!) at each meal. I do this for several days, very slowly and gradually increasing the amount. A lot of people opt to mix the foods to introduce, but I don't do it this way.

I also agree that you should try to only change one thing at a time so that you can get a better sense of what the variables are and can pinpoint what may be causing an issue when you refer back to your notes. I only change one thing at a time with Sebastian, as well, which is why is has taken us FOREVER to get where we are now. 
 

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2. I am pretty sure at least one person here suggested I keep notes, and I read other posts where people talked about their notes. My notes have become increasingly detailed and include everything I do and observe, plus I am now adding some of my thoughts. It's pretty basic - just a daily entry in my Google calendar that lets me access just about anywhere.

3. I don't know what I would do without the holistic vet. The conventional vet recently told me Tim needs to be on cisapride for life; this was without trying anything else. The holistic vet agreed that some cats do need to be on it for life, but we won't know if Tim is one of those cats unless we try weaning him off.
I know exactly what you mean about notes! At first it was only whether or not the cat went; then morning, afternoon, or evening was noted; then exact time. More notes about volume. Even more about what was fed and what supplements I gave.

I remember there was one owner in the Yahoo! group that got their kitty off cisapride. They did have to add coconut oil and aloe vera to the regime. I believe the cat was also getting acupuncture and B12 shots.
 

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Yesterday I introduced my cats to a new food: Lotus Just Juicy turkey. This food advertises on its label that it contains no carrageenan, guar gum, or xantham gum. Great! Because my cat has food sensitivities and these are all suspect ingredients, I thought I found a nice food to add to our rotation.

This morning and this afternoon, I caught my cat drooling, licking his lips, and shaking his head. All signs of nausea and acid reflux for him. I gave him a 1/4 tab of Pepcid to help; excess nausea and stomach acid comes up into his mouth and causes his lower lip to swell. I hoped it's not the new food.

Meanwhile, I took a closer look at the label of the new food and see there are two ingredients that do not thrill me: potato starch and agar-agar. Doing a little research on agar-agar, I see it is derived from red seaweed, just like carrageenan. I am not able to find the same controversial information as is available regarding carrageenan, but some sources describe them as almost identical.

Here is the entire list of ingredients:

Turkey, Turkey Broth, Potato Starch, Carrots, Calcium Lactate, Olive Oil, Monosodium Phosphate, Salt, Agar-Agar, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Niacin, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

What do you think? As I strongly suspect carrageenan in my cat's intestinal problems, should I stop this food that contains agar-agar or see how it goes? Getting closer and closer to home-cooking ...
I had to stop my poor cat became sick so I went back to his Organix food my Castro and Pollux no thickeners like agar or guar gum
 

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Hello,

I realize this thread is old but I just wanted to add a suggestion for people that may read this thread in the future.

As I read through the issues people have with their cat's stomach and digestive issues I felt compelled to share what I have done to help my kitties with their stomach and GI issues.

Two of my cats developed reflux due to food allergies and two others have IBS. I prefer holistic remedies when possible and when their vets approve.

My holistic vet (got the ok from their regular vet too), suggested using aloe vera juice. It must be made from ONLY the inner filet! It has been a miracle for them! No side effects and safe to use every day. But, if you have a diabetic cat be sure to check blood sugar levels because aloe vera (and more over, acemannan), can lower blood sugar levels (over time).

What also helps tummy troubles with the IBS kitties is bovine colostrum. I get one that's liposomal and lactose free. Like with all supplements, start with a partial dose and work your way up to a full dose. As long as my IBS cats get it every day they have perfectly normal output.

Best of luck to everyone!
 
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