what my vet said about raw diets

8whiskers · Apr 5, 2014

So I am researching transitioning my 8 monsters to a ground raw food diet. Since 2 of them have/had struvite stones, I'm very concerned. I left a message for my vet asking her what her opinion was about raw diets, and her response was:

1. She's happy that the Ph levels have evened out, so that encourages her to suggest I stay with the current diet.

2. Her biggest concern was the safety of our meat supply. She said here in Colorado we do not have a safe meat supply. If it WAS a safe supply she'd "be all for a raw diet."

That tells me she's not a fan of the meat in the grocery store or at Costco. I am still looking at local butchers, but I plan on showing her the Hare-Today website (and any others any of you recommend!) and see if that would change her mind.

I'm happy she her reaction was a solid "no" and that she had valid concerns. She sounds open minded and if we can agree on a safe meat source we'll both be happy.

I'm leaning towards starting with the Feline Instincts (without liver powder) and livers from Hare Today.

I bought some chicken livers and gizzards (that may contain hearts) at the grocery store in the meat section as an experiment. I mixed a small amount of the cut up livers in with their regular wet food. Most of them weren't thrilled and didn't want to eat it. Peanut ate hers and a few other's with gusto - she will pretty much eat anything she can stick her face in. :-)

For now I just want to introduce the texture, smell and taste of something different. They don't actually have to eat much of it. :--)

peaches08 · Apr 5, 2014

What's wrong with the meat in the grocery stores? I know she said it isn't "safe", but what does she mean by that? Are people getting sick too?

Another source is My Pet Carnivore https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/

furmonster mom · Apr 5, 2014

Remember, the AVMA recently passed a rule in their guidelines that requires member vets to discourage the feeding of raw diets.

They've worded it in such a way that basically says (paraphrasing);

'You should actively discourage the feeding of so-called natural/raw diets. If, however, you have a client dead set on it, then that is certainly their prerogative. However, you should make it clear that it is risky and you don't support it.'

So, unless you have a holistic vet, you can expect to hear all the usual "you shouldn't do it" rationales. Don't expect to get a lot of input beyond that, because honestly, it's doubtful that they've researched the subject all that thoroughly.

I get most of my main meats from Costco. Have been for 7 years.

I avoid getting meats from the regular grocery chains, because I just don't trust how long they've been out on the shelf.

I find that the cultural markets actually have a fresher supply on the shelves... at least in my town that seems to be the case.

The rare times that I find it necessary to get grocery meat, I get cuts that are thick, and I look for the dates. I stay away from grinds.

bigperm20 · Apr 5, 2014

OP are you buying your cats' current diet from your veterinarian. If so she may benefit from discouraging a raw diet. Just a thought.

8whiskers · Apr 5, 2014

bigperm20: I normally do not buy my food from my vet, I buy it from Petsmart. I did just recently have to buy 1 small bag of the s/d food for my cat Autumn who has a struvite stone we are trying to dissolve. My vet's price was $2 cheaper than Petsmart.

She did say she was worried about our meat supply as her daughter just got over a horrible case of salmonella. From what I understand so far, cats are not prone to salmonella and if I practice safe handling of the meat, I won't get it either. It's not like I am going to be down there with the cats eating their raw food! ;-)

She did say if the meat source was safe she'd be all for a raw diet. So she's not discouraging me, but as we are battling a struvite stone and I have another cat that we're watching his ph after HIS stone removal surgery, I can understand her hesitancy on wanting to switch diets right now.

Peaches08: thanks for the link! I'll be checking it out as soon as I'm done here. :-)

The grocers/butchers/big box stores in your areas may be different than mine. I've seen some of the very young or questionable people that work at MY grocery store's meat department, and I wouldn't eat meat they touched either. I'm a big fan of Costco's meat, but again, I don't know how long it sits out.

micknsnicks2mom · Apr 5, 2014

my vet has openly voiced her disapproval of a raw diet, citing concerns of listeria. my snick, who is going to be 14 years old this summer and has several serious medical conditions, is a very picky eater and so i've decided not to try transitioning her over to a raw or home cooked diet. the stress could cause my girl more problems.

however, i will be transitioning all future cats of mine over to a home cooked diet with some raw here and there. we lost our mickey to feline diabetes and snick has CKD, IBD, and idiopathic hypercalcemia. i feel very strongly that i owe it to both mickey and snick to do something differently in order to do my best to avoid some of these medical conditions. of course, i know some of these conditions/diseases can be genetically predisposed in some cats.

peaches08 · Apr 5, 2014

Are holistic vets not part of the AVMA? I genuinely do not know, hence I ask.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but how did her daughter get salmonella if she practiced safe food handling? In any case, a possible alternative is to prepare the raw the way Dr. Pierson of www.catinfo.org does. She sears the outside of the meat very lightly then shocks it in ice water to stop the cooking process. I did that for a long time trying to be safe, but I got over it and have been feeding raw since with no problems.

If interested, I can go further into a step-by-step process on how I did the searing to be safe if you're interested.

furmonster mom · Apr 5, 2014

peaches08 said:
Are holistic vets not part of the AVMA? I genuinely do not know, hence I ask.

Soooorrrt of....

Holistic vets actually have their own group called the American Holistic Veterinarian Medical Association (AHVMA). The way I understand it (and I could be wrong), while this group is it's own entity, it is now also a part of the larger AVMA 'umbrella', if you will.

Here is a snippet from their homepage:

We began 2014 with quite a splash. At the AVMA Leadership Conference and House Of Delegates (HOD) Winter Session, we participated in our first full voting session as delegates.

I think this "merging" is a relatively new development. From what I remember in the past, vets could belong to one or the other, or even both associations. Now it looks like one is indeed a part of/under the other.

In any case, it's been my experience that holistic vets are generally a little more open minded to this "crazy raw-feeding trend". (hurr hurr)

goingpostal · Apr 6, 2014

What does she mean by "not safe"? Most vets jump to salmonella which considering the amount of recalls on everything, including kibble and treats for bacteria seems hugely overblown. My animals have been eating meat from the grocery store just like I do for years. The quality of meat and other ingredients in kibble is far more disgusting and worse handled.

bigperm20 · Apr 6, 2014

I don't feed raw so I don't really have a <cat> in this fight. However, I don't see how choice cuts of meat from the grocery store could be more dangerous to an animal than the garbage they make pet food with. There'is very little, if any, regulation in the pet food industry. Granted, some of the better brands use better fresher meat. However even the good companies have been subject to recalls (and very ill pets) over the past couple of years.

Most vets know very little about pet nutrition unfortunately. I read somewhere that they take only one class on the subject in veterinary college. I don't know if this is right, or not. I would think there are elective classes on the topic, but who knows? My point is your pet is just as likely to get sick from store bought pet food, as they are home cooked, and raw food. This is of course considering proper food handling and storage, etc. Just my 2 cents.

laralove · Apr 6, 2014

For what it's worth, I feed my cat a raw diet from whole cuts I buy from Food Lion and grind myself. I use a recipe that's sort of a combination of Dr. Pierson's and one from CatNutrition. He's doing great, has never gotten sick, and neither I nor anyone else in my family has gotten sick. I use the same bleach-based cleaner after preparing his food as I do when I use raw meat when preparing meals for myself and my family.

ritz · Apr 6, 2014

Yeah, it struck me that the vet's daughter got salmonella--but that your vet was still open to the idea of feeding raw.
I have almost always bought my meat from the grocery store, and when I can, at it's sell-by date @ 30 to 50% off. Never had a problem.
Ritz is prone to stress induced UTIs, and am glad I feed her prey model raw (frankenprey). The vet doesn't terribly like that I fed her raw, but he certainly compliments Ritz on what a fine coat of fur she has!

ldg · Apr 14, 2014

8whiskers said:
She did say she was worried about our meat supply as her daughter just got over a horrible case of salmonella. From what I understand so far, cats are not prone to salmonella and if I practice safe handling of the meat, I won't get it either. It's not like I am going to be down there with the cats eating their raw food! ;-)

I'm a little late to the thread, but the first thing that struck me was.... her daughter was far more likely to have gotten it from lettuce or alfalfa sprouts than the meat. :lol3: It's a rather prevalent problem given the water they use to water crops. And if they have any pets and feed kibble, again - more likely it came from touching kibble or the animal's dish than raw meat!

goholistic · Apr 14, 2014

LDG said:
I'm a little late to the thread, but the first thing that struck me was.... her daughter was far more likely to have gotten it from lettuce or alfalfa sprouts than the meat.

It's a rather prevalent problem given the water they use to water crops. And if they have any pets and feed kibble, again - more likely it came from touching kibble or the animal's dish than raw meat!

Agreed. Salmonella can come from other sources...not just meat. I get recall notifications from the FDA (for humans and pets) and many of the recalls for salmonella and listeria are coming from fruits and vegetables. Also, I didn't read how or where the daughter got salmonella. It could have been at a restaurant or something.

zoneout · Apr 14, 2014

8whiskers said:
So I am researching transitioning my 8 monsters to a ground raw food diet. Since 2 of them have/had struvite stones, I'm very concerned.

The cats with struvite... were they on kibble?

zoneout · Apr 14, 2014

GoingPostal said:
What does she mean by "not safe"? Most vets jump to salmonella which considering the amount of recalls on everything, including kibble and treats for bacteria seems hugely overblown. My animals have been eating meat from the grocery store just like I do for years. The quality of meat and other ingredients in kibble is far more disgusting and worse handled.

8whiskers · Apr 14, 2014

Since my vet just left a message on my machine where she stated her daughter had a bad case of salmonella, I don't know how she contracted it.

Yes, my cats were on kibble out all day, and wet food once at night. Since finding out I have a 2nd cat with struvites, I removed the kibble from their diet altogether. I am now feeding canned only (without any meal, by-products or carageenan), while I research how I want to proceed with a raw diet. My 2nd kitty with the struvite stone is eating nothing but the s/d kibble, she flat out refuses to touch the canned variety. Hopefully, the stone will shrink if she eats nothing but that food and we can avoid surgery.

Like I said before, my vet doesn't have a problem with feeding a raw diet. Her exact words were "if we could guarantee a safe meat source, I'd be all for a raw diet for cats." Again, this was left on my machine, so when I bring them in for their follow up, I will try to get more information.

feedinghand · Apr 22, 2014

Use common sense & educate yourself with information, in order to stop giving in to fear.

You are the one responsible & taking the risk of keeping your cats on food you know to be "unhealthy".

Instead of counting on opinions, educate yourself until you are comfortable making the change.

Your cats are waiting for you to do what is best for them, and their health is in the balances until you do.

Then, once you do decide, continue to seek out even more information.

Little did I know I would have to become an expert & know as much as I do, back when I first started all of this "food research" for our cats.

But I now realize it is not only the best way, but the only way for us to avoid this sort of thing happening to us again.

We had cats eating kibble & a variety of foods over the past 35+ years, and could not in good conscience, go back to feeding our current & future companions the vile

things we gave them in the past, as they paid with their health & in many cases, their lives. SO we feel we owe it to their kin, to learn from our mistakes.

In short, there are no guarantees. SO you have to make the best choice you can & be willing to learn from any mistakes you may make.

You KNOW what your current food choices have done to their health. The real question is, what are you going to do about it now that you know?

Good Luck!

PS: as I said, educate yourself & use common sense. Even about proper food handling.

(Tip, look into what people do in other countries, to help clean their meats when preparing a fresh chicken or meat.... one answer...Vinegar! The acid kills off the bacteria.)

jclark · Apr 23, 2014

peaches08 said:
What's wrong with the meat in the grocery stores? I know she said it isn't "safe", but what does she mean by that? Are people getting sick too?

Another source is My Pet Carnivore https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/

She's probably thinking Costco, because it's so cheap, doesn't use the best quality of meat. For humans it's not a big deal because we cook our meat, but she may be thinking in terms of raw that it may open the cat up to becoming sick.

jclark · Apr 23, 2014

Furmonster Mom said:
Remember, the AVMA recently passed a rule in their guidelines that requires member vets to discourage the feeding of raw diets.

They've worded it in such a way that basically says (paraphrasing);

'You should actively discourage the feeding of so-called natural/raw diets. If, however, you have a client dead set on it, then that is certainly their prerogative. However, you should make it clear that it is risky and you don't support it.'

So, unless you have a holistic vet, you can expect to hear all the usual "you shouldn't do it" rationales. Don't expect to get a lot of input beyond that, because honestly, it's doubtful that they've researched the subject all that thoroughly.

I get most of my main meats from Costco. Have been for 7 years.

I avoid getting meats from the regular grocery chains, because I just don't trust how long they've been out on the shelf.

I find that the cultural markets actually have a fresher supply on the shelves... at least in my town that seems to be the case.

The rare times that I find it necessary to get grocery meat, I get cuts that are thick, and I look for the dates. I stay away from grinds.

Ya, but I also think Vets prefer to use a "lowest common denominator" approach to these things. They don't want to be on the hook for a dead pet because of some "advice" they gave on raw feeding (i.e. cat developed serious problems because owner fed it nothing but ground chuck).

what my vet said about raw diets

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