Hey, Im new here :) Glad to meet you all

Thanks for responding LDG. Yes, if you could provide some websites that I can check into to learn more, it would be greatly appreciated.
My beliefs are based on the thought that humans and cats thinks similarly on this subject, so any information (from respectable sources of course)is welcome if it will help me see from other points of view.
Im no animal behaviorist, so its hard for me to visualize how a cat thinks.
This is what I would like to understand: "Any animal behaviorist can tell you, and all studies on the subject indicate that the male/female role in the animal world is a genetic and hormonal one, not a "value judgment" or a social "role" learned like in the human world.
Just doesnt work for me right now.

Thanks again!

Peace,
Brandon

One thing to consider as well is that there are many many human women in this world who have never had children (myself included). The fact that I have never given birth does not make me any less of a woman than those who have given birth. The same goes for men. There are many men out there who have medical conditions that keep testosterone from being produced in correct amounts. These men are no less a man than those with lots of testosterone. So...if you want to think of cats in human terms, consider my argument.

But....also remember that the brains of cats are very small. The parts of the brain that do all of the higher level thinking about things such as sexual identity are almost nonexistant in cats, but are HUGE in humans. So, biologically speaking, it is next to impossible that cats would be cognitively sophisticated enough to worry about being manly or womanly.

Many people think along the same lines as Brandon does. It is how we are developed to think and so we assume that other creatures must also have the same line of reasoning and emotions. But I would counter that cats do not. I would say they feel grief over the loss of their littermates, or parent, or feline friend or owner, but not the loss of their testicles or ovaries. I would counter that they get mad at times when we leave them for a period with someone else and come back home. But if they were open to the same sort of emotions that we as human experience, they would be easier to figure out and live with. They don't have the same emotions as we do, it is our desire for them to have this.

To spay and neuter is a responsibility that all pet owners must make and we hope all of them do. It does prolong the life of the cat, mellow behavior and other than one day of discomfort, the cats come out just fine. To keep an intact male inside 24/7 especially during mating season will prove to be difficult. Letting him outside to roam will put him in contact with other Toms much tougher than he is, and could ultimately wind up with you having a missing cat or one that drags himself home badly injured. It simply is not worth it- trust me I have lived the nightmare. All my cats are now spayed and neutered as soon as is humanely possible. Keeping your male intact will also start spraying behavior. Have you ever smelled full male cat pee? It's evil and it goes everywhere. Once the spraying starts, it will not stop not even after neuter (usually). It is instinct that drives them, not need and certainly there is no thought in his head that he has to prove his manliness.

Originally posted by lotsocats
The same goes for men. There are many men out there who have medical conditions that keep testosterone from being produced in correct amounts. These men are no less a man than those with lots of testosterone. So...if you want to think of cats in human terms, consider my argument.

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True but they have lots of drugs, and things for people in those situations. Id say the general population of males would go for these drugs too if they were lacking in natural testosterone.
Hissy, thanks for the reply. Mabye Im just thinking about this subject too much Yeah my cat sprays and ummmm... eek.
Thanks for the replies,
Brandon

Just to address the statements of lotsocats and the issue you just brought up, Brandon, my question is - are catholic priests less "male" because they are celibate their entire lives?

I think the point of this discussion is to make it a bit clearer that "male" and "female" are socially learned roles and it is we that place value judgments on them. Personally, I think just because a person doesn't have sex doesn't mean they're less male or female.

But, to address studies. I will have more as I'm in the process of collecting them for you. Unfortunately, it appears that much of what you're interested in is not available on line, so I'll only be able to provide the citations, and you'll have to head to your local library or college library to find the materials themselves.

Here is a study by the Winn-Feline foundation, a non-profit organization established by the Cat Fancier's Association, Inc. to support health-related studies benefiting cats.

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/repo...ly-neuter.html

If you want to read the full report and not just the study, this is the reference for it:

Developmental and Behavioral Effects of Prepubertal Gonadectomy. Mark S. Bloomberg, DVM, MS; W.P. Stubbs, DVM; D.F. Senior, BVSc; Thomas J. Lane, BS, DVM; University of Florida at Gainesville. Funded by the Winn Feline Foundation, February 1991. Continuation funded February 1992. A progress report on a study funded by The Winn Feline Foundation (Summary prepared by Diana Cruden, Ph.D. 1995/1996)

Here are links to a study on the difference between gender and sex. Although this addresses humans, it does address the higher-brain function required to make the distinction between the biology of the "sex" of a being and the process of gender-identity of a being.

http://canfield.etext.net/Chapter5.htm

Here is an article by a well-published researcher, Sarah Hartwell. A section of this article addresses the question of whether or not neutering is merely an attempt to "denature" cats:

http://www.messybeast.com/antineuter.htm

Unfortunately, the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (JAVMA) is not availble online to non-subscribers, but it is one of the most respected in the field of animal medical issues. Appropriate publication:

Lieberman LL. A case for neutering pups and kittens at two months of age. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 191(5);518-521, 1987.

Theran P. Early-age neutering of dogs and cats. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc Vol 202(6);914-917, 1993.

Re: neutering's affect on the "manhood" of your cat:

Root MV, Johnston SD, Johnston GR, Olson PN. The effect of prepuberal and postpuberal gonadectomy on penile extrusion and urethral diameter in the domestic cat. Veterinary Radiology & Ultrasound Vol 37(5);363-366, 1996.


More studies and references to come.

You might like this site, too. It's not a research study, but it is by a vet.

http://www.vetinfo.com/cmale.html#Ne...le%20cats%20--

Woah! thats a lot of information! Well Ill get to reading it now
Oh and about the catholic priests: I think its different for them since what they do is by choice, and the don't have anything removed.
Thanks again,
Brandon

I just got done reading them (plus a few more), and Im actually a bit torn now. They presented some facts about non-neutered/spayed cats that made me think twice, and although I want whats best for my cat, I just can't justify doing that. Im still a bit iffy on some of the arguments, but the facts about fighting, coming home injured, and being lost for days on end really kinda hit me hard. I guess it just sort of describes my cat, even though I don't want it too. Hes come home with pierced ears before, and it just makes me sad to think about it. Plus this enya music in the background isn't helping.
This is going to be eating at my head for a while

Well thanks to everyone for all you help.

-Brandon

Originally posted by Cougar
Plus this enya music in the background isn't helping.

Click to expand...

Brandon, I'm still working on finding further studies for you, and I'm glad you're rethinking your position. Personally, I would think the health benefits alone should be a convincing argument, but to each his own, right?

But I must say, obviously you are free to do what you want and will do so - but personally I am shocked to hear you let him roam. I'm sure you've heard this before, but you are obviously intelligent - and this just does not jive with the irresponsibility to which you've just admitted. I believe it is really irresponsible to allow an unneutered cat outside. It would be one thing if he were an inside only cat. And even if I didn't rescue, I would have a serious problem with the fact that you let your unneutered male roam. But I do rescue, and I do deal with homeless cats and kittens. Please visit several shelters near you. Ask them a few questions about the waiting lists. Please take the time to see what your decision to not neuter your kitty and to still allow him to roam outside does. Just because he can't come home pregnant and you don't have to deal with his kittens and don't even know he's fathered them (which he certainly has), doesn't negate the fact that it's happening. And it doesn't negate your role in contributing to a really tragic problem. I'm so, so, so sorry to hear he's also an outside kitty.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a pro-inside only cat person. I'm just intimatey involved in the consequences of irresponsible people who do not spay or neuter their cats, and it turns my stomach. If you could see what happens to the kittens your kitty fathers I am certain you would not continue to let this happen.

ouch... thats quite a load to drop on me. I guess I already knew it though. I suppose Ill check out the shelters.
Im thinking owning a cat just might not be for me...

Brandon, I'd be so sorry if that's the decision you make! It seems like you also get lots of joy from your boy.

I'm sorry if it feels like "quite a load."

Unfortunately it is the truth. From my perspective, it's too bad there aren't laws to make pet owners responsible for their pets along lines that would be analagous to the way in which fathers are legally responsible for children out of wedlock.

Brandon, no one here is saying that you should give up your cat. Laurie does rescue cats and kittens, and our research for www.SaveSamoa.org and especially www.StrayPetAdvocacy.org has shown us more than we ever imagined about the immensity of the pet overpopulation problem that plagues the US and the world. Hence the passion that this subject brings up. Honestly, everyone who allows their cat to breed indiscriminately is adding to that problem and adding to the huge number of healthy and adoptable dogs and cats that are killed each year, each day in shelters. While we are sure that you allowing your whole male outside wasn't intended to add to this, it is highly doubtful that he hasn't fathered kittens at some point in his wanderings. That he has returned with injuries confirms this, since toms generally fight over females (while females fight to either protect their kittens or over territory).

At the very least I encourage you to spend some time in our SOS forum, and our Feral Colonies forum to see just a small sampling of what can and does happen when unwanted litters happen.

And that is in addition to the health and behavioural benefits of spaying and neutering.

Valan, I know noone is implying that. It was just a thougth that popped into my head upon reading the thread.
I guess I'll just sleep on it.
You know there are some shelters around here taking volunteers... mabye I'll check into that.

Thanks again,
Brandon

Welcome cougar to TCS

Thanks