Scouted many forums, not sure what the answer is...

lhystory

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Hello, this is my first post on the site. I'd love to upload some photos of my babies, but that'll have to wait.

Long story short, my wife and I adopted two brothers from a local Ohio shelter, and have been having a blast with the two crazy, absolutely adorable cuties. Mars is the wild-tiger stripe kitty, the smaller of the two, and Juno is the lovey-dovey fatty that loves to eat and play.

Right off the bat, I fed them some meow mix wet food in congruence with some Purina kitty chow. Instantly, both kittens barely ate the chow. I thus began my search for the correct dietary choices, ranging from raw, cooked/raw, to commercial raw. Nature's Variety offered a coupon for their Instinct Raw Medallions, which I purchased and fed to my kitties to their own delight. However, being ridiculously priced, I decided it's not in my budget to keep buying medallions, and turned to Hare-Today for some whole carcass ground rabbit (10 lb), chicken hearts, and chicken livers. Also visited vitacost.com for the remaining supplementation (followed to a T). First batch of food, roughly three weeks ago: great success. The kitties were lively, enjoyed the food, their coats got ultra glossy and they generally seemed to not only crave the food, but also to be thriving on it until the next batch.

Fast forward to two weeks ago. I made a fresh batch of the rabbit - but with one alteration: instead of using four egg yolks, I used three whole eggs. Which MAY be an issue, but I can't just base it on that alone.

Mars began rejecting the raw food, along with Juno having a tougher time eating - red flag. I did not notice any issues, but Mars in general began losing interest in food, along with losing some weight. For a young kitten (18mo) to lose a visible amount of weight is unacceptable. Earlier this week. I purchased EVO-grain free cans and fed at least Mars, who started enjoying a modest appetite. Figured he might be okay and he ravenously devoured the raw. Same evening, he completely threw up his meal with orange bile and chunk of meat. He did it once more the next day for dinner, and I have forgone feeding him the raw altogether, and he seems better with still some modest diarrhea (half-shaped, with a caramel-like interior - very stinky). Juno, however, after eating his last raw meal completely regurgitated the entire raw meal, to the point where it barely began digesting.

I'm guessing he either ate too fast, but I've been splitting up their meals to 1.5 - 2.0oz per feeding, four times per day, and mixing in plenty of water into their food. Mars has NOT thrown up and seems to be improving, and Juno is healthy like a beast with the occasional hiccup. There was NO hair in Juno's throw up.

I did notice that Mars also did a little dig and hide when I was in the bathroom (in the litterbox), and did a semi-yowl, which seemed like an attempt at pooping. He then dug in the tub and laid down, assuming for comfort from the cold tub on his tummy. He then passed his stool no issues and went on being playful.

That's my issue. They seem to be having issues with the raw food, but rarely, AND they are completely playful and loving without any signs of lethargy or disease. The are not dehydrated, and they do not seem to have any issues with energy.  I was quoted $300 for a vet check up (just for Mars) and I can't quite afford that right now.

Does anyone have any idea as to what can be happening? I got some hairball medication and have applied it to Mars. The next step is buying a FURminator to help with their grooming. Outside of that, I'm at my wits end. Raw is supposed to be THE best diet. I can't have my babies rejecting it. I wonder if it has anything to do with the eggs, because that was the only factor that has changed.

Please let me know if you have encountered anything of the sort!
 

peaches08

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It might be the eggs. It's worth a try to give plain meat or meat/bone to see.
 

di and bob

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I really can't help you with much, but being in the health field I can tell you it sounds like something might have been 'bad' with the last batch of food you made up. The eggs could have been infected with salmonella, or the rabbit with something. Maybe it could just be a matter of them getting 'used' to it, a change in diet can make a cat throw up.You may want to feed them something easy on the stomach for a while, like ground turkey. If they are doing well on the canned, I would feed them that until they are recovered and then SLOWLY start reintroducing small amounts of raw back into the diet. There are many more people on this site that are a lot more knowledgeable about a raw diet, I hope they can help you. Good luck!
 

Willowy

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You might try posting in the raw feeding subforum. I know that a few there had some trouble with their cats' digestion during transition, and they'll know which supplements to try. I also think that Hare Today ground whole animals are a bit high in bone, and they'll know how much plain meat to add to balance that out.

How old are they now?
 
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lhystory

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Thanks for the responses!

This is a very recent situation. They are about 16-18 weeks of age, still. I had a typo in my initial post. Due to the vomiting and slight diarrhea, I have been mixing extra water into their canned meals so that they can at the very least replenish their water supplies on a regular basis.

Am I allowed to double post this on the raw subforum? I'm not sure where to go!
 

denice

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I would definitely post in the raw forum that's where the people experienced with raw feeding will see it for sure.  I know a couple of raw feeders also read posts here but all of the raw feeders here routinely read posts in the raw forum.  I know too much bone can cause constipation and at one point it sounds like one of your kitties was a little constipated.
 
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lhystory

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Denice,

Indeed that seemed to be the case with Mars last night. The curious thing is: he has not eaten the raw food, nor was his stool too firm upon being expelled.

I knew I should have purchased that Psyllium husk powder. Do you think that I can counteract some of the effects of the extra-bone in the Hare-Today grinds by adding extra Psyllium husk?
 

ritz

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Welcome to The Cat Site, and yes, pictures please :)
I've been feeding Ritz raw for over two years. She was really easy to transition: she'll eat anything...and then sometime throws it up. I've identified the problem as excess acid in her stomach, she can't handle red meat if she hasn't eaten every four or five hours. So I feed her red meat in the morning, and white meat (LOVES rabbit) in the evening.
Food thrown up that is undigested is different from food thrown up that is digested--different issues, IMO. A tell-tail sign for Ritz is: does she want to eat right away after she throws up, in which case, it's excess bile. If she doesn't, then in her case, she's feeling poorly, like maybe the meat is bad (rare, but it happens). Even when the food was possibly bad, her stools didn't smell that bad, so not sure what's going on. Hopefully more knowledgeable poster will chime in.
Off the top of my head...
I'd try re-transitioning, pick the food both are most likely to keep down, and introduce some raw food slowly. If possible, different food/batch (with egg yolks, not whites).
Cats are strange creatures (no! really!!!!???): so they may not like the egg whites, it has a much different taste than the yolks.
I would also give them probiotics to help in part with digestion and getting their stomachs use to the new type of food.
If you're concerned about constipation (though soft stools usually don't mean constipation), then you could try a tablespoon or less of plain pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling). Or have a few bone-free meals. For future batches, you can dilute the bone percentages by simply adding more meat/protein.
Not sure by your post if you think your kitties are having a hair ball problem, but egg yolk lechitin is a good supplement for now--or when shedding season begins.
 

mrsgreenjeens

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This is really strange, but another raw feeder, @harrylime, is having trouble with his kitten and HareToday rabbit!  (But I don't think he feeds the Whole Carcass Rabbit).  Anyway, his kitten is also rejecting the rabbit,and having very stinky stools, which is so NOT what is supposed to happen with raw
.  He ended up taking his little one to the Vet for a check-up for possible parasites, as kittens are often prone to them. 

Now, for your two little darlings...

ARE you giving them probiotics?  What all are you adding to their whole carcass rabbit besides eggs and water?  And, I'm sorry, I can't seem to keep up, are they both now eating the raw again or is one on canned and one on raw at this point, and is the throwing up just occasional?  Have you fed them the chicken hearts and/or livers at all yet?  I'm thinking you had bad eggs and it caused them some issues
.  Egg whites shouldn't have enough taste mixed in with the meat that they would even know they were there, really.   I mix egg whites into one of my cat's canned foods right now (don't ask
) and she can't tell they're there as long as I don't cook them, but I use the ones in the carton so I know they're pasteurized...she CAN'T have yolks due to health issues)

Just as an aside, I've never know anyone that has fed the Whole Carcass Rabbit before.  Can you see the FUR in it?  Did you find out from Tracy what the percentage of bone is in this particular product?  It may be a little high...not sure. 
 
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lhystory

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I would love to hear what @harrylime has to offer for the conversation since he's having the same issues.

Indeed, I have mixed in both the hearts and the liver without blending them. Throughout my research, I was concerned with the loss of taurine in their food, and I figured that if I don't blend/alter the hearts, they can chew on them as meat chunks AND benefit a source of 'isolated' taurine.

I followed the catnutrition.org recipe (almost) to a T - including the B50 complex, Immunoplex glandular support, wild caught fish oil (caps, not loose, released via warm water), and vitamin E. I have forgone the Iodine salt and the optional psyllium husk.

I'm not very happy with the whole carcass grind due to the pieces of fur (not an overwhelming amount, but I can't imagine it being that good for them since they're already prone to hairballs - no need to have that extra irritant in their stomach), and some of the bones are not as ground as I'd like them to be. Small shards are present within the food, which I have noticed in moderately low amounts, but perhaps too much for a supposedly 'fine' grind. I did not find out what % the bone was, but from my research the heart is considered a muscle meat AND taurine source, so I figured that it shouldn't be much of an issue for the kitties, all things considered.
 

mrsgreenjeens

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OK, good, so you're adding the heart and liver to their food, to cut down on the % of bone, as I suspect it's a little high with that extra muscle meat (heart) .  Probiotics?

Next time you can just get the Ground Rabbit/Bones/Organs vs the Whole Carcass if you're not liking that extra fur.  It's extra fine ground.  Mine hate rabbit so I've no experience with it, but lots of folks here feed rabbit, so I'm sure someone can tell you if there are larger bone pieces in it or not. 

BTW, feeding them egg yolks should help keep their hairball down and going out the backend vs coming out the front end


Since your thread just got moved over to this raw forum within the last couple of hours, I'm hoping some of the really expert raw feeders will be peaking at it soon and give their opinions on what might be going on here..

Oh yes, you didn't say, but are they both back on raw and still having just an occasion throw up and stinky poops, or what?
 
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lhystory

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Thanks for your prompt replies! I apologize for not covering those topics.

IN terms of probiotics, I have not experimented with them. I followed the recipe online, which did not actively call for probiotics. I may have to look into that.

As of right now, they are both back on the can diet of EVO until their health stabilizes. Last night Juno regurgitated all of his raw food, which wasn't even partially digested. It was a giant hunk of raw food, with the end being a little 'green'. I'm including extra water into their fluffed meals to make sure that they don't become dehydrated. Maybe the regurgitation was a side effect of the bone content, as perhaps he was constipated and there was simply no room (due to the bone content).

Having your babies not feel well is excruciating. The vet I've been consulting just tried to talk me out of raw and told me that she doesn't support it at all. Time for a new vet.
 

stephenq

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There is no such thing as a good food if it makes your cats sick. While Raw diets have lots of supporters, it is not objective truth that it is the best food, and certainly what is best for one cat isn't best for another.  I would get off the raw diet and start transistioning to a high quyality commercial food and get them stabalized.
 

mrsgreenjeens

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Throwing up undigested food usually means they are eating too fast OR that there is an obstruction.  Was that the case when they DID vomit?  (Scarfing down their food?)   If they can eat the Evo without any issues, then I would NOT think it is an obstruction.  You CAN give them just a meal of the chicken hearts w/ a little liver and see how they do with that. It won't be 100% nutritionally complete because it'll be missing the calcium, but for just ONE meal, it would be ok, just to see if they can hold it down (or do you have some calcium substitute lying around...eggshell powder, that sort of thing?) 

BTW, MOST Vets are opposed to the raw diet.  Mine was until I convinced her it was 100% nutritionally complete.  Now she's fine with it.  I may convert her yet
 
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lhystory

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Thanks again for all of your replies.

As of the last posting, I have been feeding both kitties with EVO Chicken and Turkey formula, which seems to have improved both of their conditions. Mars, who was struggling with eating/dirrhea/vomit, now eats very well, and seems to be recovering. Juno, as always, is a top champ and loves food...any kind of food.

The only problem remaining is that Mars is still having slightly gooey/stinky stools. Looking through the boards here, I have noticed that that seems to be a common trait for EVO food.

I went to the store and purchased some organic unsweetened (plain) yogurt and have been feeding them teaspoons a day in order to see if I can supplement them with some probiotics. So far so good.

I'm itching to get back into the raw game because to be frank, having been off of it for about a week now, I can see a dramatic change in fur/shedding and litterbox smells. I'm quite scared of them rejecting the food again, or worse yet, putting my poor Marsy under unnecessary physical stress once again. I figured I have enough EVO for about two more weeks, let them stabilize and keep feeding them the unsweetened yogurt, and once they're completely stabilized, maybe once again try to introduce the raw - but with a few changes:

No more rabbit carcass, substitute with ground chicken meal from HT;

Four egg yolks, fresh, organic;

Chunked chicken pieces.

Psyllium husk powder to offset the high bone ratio in HT grinds

Let me know if I missed anything!
 

ritz

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Thanks again for all of your replies.

Psyllium husk powder to offset the high bone ratio in HT grinds

Let me know if I missed anything!
Maybe I missed something, but is there a reason you're adding psyllium husk powder instead of, for example, cooked pumpkin or a little of extra meat/protein? Or is that why you're adding chunked chicken pieces?

PS: Ritz is a highly stressed cat (I guess she takes after me (: ). I have been giving her L-theanine, sprinkled in her food. Frankly I'm not sure it's all that helpful, but perhaps your cats would benefit.
 
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lhystory

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Well initially I was not aware of the issues with the HT bone/meat ratio, especially since I ordered whole rabbit carcass...my  mistake. I guess the psyllium wouldn't be wholly necessary except for in terms of making it as easy on their stomach as possible to process and pass stools.

I guess it would make better sense not to add the psyllium and to instead include extra chunks of meat.
 

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I wouldn't suggest psyllium. It needs a LOT of water to not gum up inside, and is mostly just a bulking agent---it doesn't ease the digestion or anything. It can also bind nutrients. If you really need something like that, egg yolk lecithin would be ideal, slippery elm bark would be OK (but can also bind nutrients). But I think just adding some boneless meat will help :).
 

mrsgreenjeens

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I wouldn't suggest psyllium. It needs a LOT of water to not gum up inside, and is mostly just a bulking agent---it doesn't ease the digestion or anything. It can also bind nutrients. If you really need something like that, egg yolk lecithin would be ideal, slippery elm bark would be OK (but can also bind nutrients). But I think just adding some boneless meat will help
.
  Are you going to continue adding in the chicken hearts too?  Is that going to be your chunked chicken pieces, or in addition too?

Good luck
.   Hopefully that rabbit fur was the issue.   BTW, a lot of us supplement with a human probiotic and just mix it right into their food when we're ready to serve it up.  This is the one many of us use:    You could do 1/2 capsule (per cat) in the a.m. and 1/2 in the p.m.
 
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