New to this - am I on the right track?

Hi! This seems like a great forum! This could be long, but I'll try to be as brief as possible. I am a foster home for cats (I take care of cats caught by local organization that works with trapping/spaying/rehabilitating feral and abandoned cats and house them until they can find proper homes). Usually I take in cats that are already domesticated, but am currently fostering two cats - one domesticated (Maja) and one feral (Mandu). I live in a rather small country and it has been hard to get information that's a little more specific than the general, generic information about ferals that can be found online. I don't have a specific problem, but I feel like I have FINALLY found a place to air my thoughts, and it would be great if any of you had some tips/ideas about how to proceed. 

The feral cat has been in our home in two different periods - first he was with us for about two months, and then he was moved to a different place over christmas since I had to be out of the country. Now he has come back to our apartment and has been here for about two weeks. During the first period with us he basically hid the entire time - he would come out briefly during the evenings, and eventually started coming out in the mornings to eat after I fed them and while we were having breakfast. I can add that his "lair" is the living room (we have a fairly small apartment) so whenever we're home we're usually in the room he's in (although he was shy, he never seemed panicky or super scared). I have heard he was much the same way in his temporary home over christmas. 

During his first period with us, just catching a glimpse of Mandu coming out of his hiding spot in the cat tree seemed like a breakthrough. However, since his time away things have changed. Now he spends a lot, if not the majority, of his time hanging out on the living room floor or in one of the armchairs in the living room while we sit on the sofa or lay on the carpet in front of our feet. If he is in his little lair he usually has his head poking out so that he can watch what's going on. He will sometimes come up and sniff our feet or hands when he thinks we're not looking, and has even started following me around (warily, and from a distance) in the morning while I prepare their food. 

This of course feels great, and it almost seems like he's happy to be back here! He is a curious cat, and seems to be learning how to trust us. However, I'm not really sure how to proceed. 

I am playing with him whenever I can get him to, but he's a pretty lazy cat and prefers to lie on his back and swat a little or sit on a chair and do everything in his power to reach a toy while moving as little as possible. Maybe this is because he is a little overweight (he was when he came to us), but I'm also pretty sure he just didn't really know how to play. Maja had to "teach" him how to play-chase her, and he approaches new toys by yawning widely, looking at them from the corner of his eye, and then plopping down on top of them (you would think he was just tired, but he does this literally every time there is a new toy - after he's been laying on it for a while he will sniff and poke it). It is hard to get him to come closer since he doesn't move around much while he's playing.  

How do I move towards petting? I am trying to place my hands (flat, fingers curled) near Mandu so that he can come up and sniff them if he wants. Occasionally, while he's relaxing somewhere in an open space, we have extended our hands to him and he'll take a few whiffs. I have also stroked him with a feather tipped rod (his favorite toy), and he'll just lie there with his eyes closed and seems to enjoy it until there's a noise or something and he's on his guard again (he won't run away though). If he has never been inside and experienced petting as something positive, will he ever come up and rub up against us, or come closer and somehow indicate that "its time"? Although he is sometimes curious, he also often seems disinterested - and why should he really be interested if close contact with humans is not something he knows? I have to say, although it's wonderful to read accounts of ferals becoming pets on here, and ferals rubbing up against their owners and becoming little love bugs, it's a little intimidating, and makes me wonder if maybe I'm not doing enough or progressing too slowly. 

Also, I am a little concerned over the feeding aspect (the whole establishing positive associations with food thing). I feed them in the mornings, but I am a student and study full time, so I don't have time to sit with him while he is eating for example. Secondly, although I try to bribe him sometimes with treats, the other cat, Maja, will do ANYTHING to snap up a morsel of food. This makes it hard to just put out treats and patiently wait for him to come to me - Maja will zoom by and steal the treats first (even from right in front of his nose!). She'll even pretend to be asleep and then dart up as soon as I look away for a second. If I lock her out of the room she will scratch at the door and meow, which seems to distress Mandu. How important is feeding/bribing with treats at this stage? 

Sorry if this is  a long and rambling post - it just feels great to be able to vent a little to people that have similar experiences and know what it's like 

I think my main issue is that quite frankly I am a little scared of him. He is bigger than the other cats I've had, and I am a little afraid to push his boundaries for fear of him suddenly biting or scratching me. Don't get me wrong, he really is a wonderful cat, and a lot of fun to watch. He is always very gentle with Maja, and is also curious in a very gentle way. However, during his first time here, when he was still very much a scaredy cat, he would get really close to us to get treats, and then suddenly look up and hiss viciously without warning, or suddenly swipe at me as if to get me to move away from the treats. This has thankfully not happened since he came back to us after christmas, but I am still a little scared it will happen again. He has hissed at me once or twice, but this has been when I have accidentally startled him and seemed more like "What the hell dude"-hisses than "I will tear your eyes out if you don't leave"-hisses. Any suggestions for how to get over this fear? 

I will answer you during the evening, ie  in about 10 hours from now.

Unless others will answer in fully, of course.

Welcome and  Good luck!

Just saw this - sorry for the delay in answering.  I'd say you were doing quite well, actually.  Please remember that all cats are different and Mandu seems like a pretty laid back dude.  Unless you really, really scare him or corner him somehow, I am doubtful he would attack you.  Try to remain calm around him, as he will sense your fear.

He does not seem like a true feral - they would attack when cornered and most of the time, they'd have no interaction with you at all.  He was socialized at some point or he would have nothing to do with you.

I would just keep doing what you're doing.  Thank you for helping him!

ps - I laughed out loud at that cute little face.

I agree, you are doing quite well. It does often takes time!   And you apparently HAD come a good distance on the way!   Time is your friend, as long as you work on.

You being much in his room, because your flat is small, is not necessarlily a disadvantage.  Maybe even the opposite...

I observe, in the beginning he dared forward when you ate breakfast, or were sitting down and doing something...  This is surely one of the keys.  Be low, do something else....   Classics.

Funny is this his yawning to toys.  Yawning and stretching is actually NOT being lazy, but it is showing friendship.   So it seems, he tries to charm the toys he is friendly with them...

It may be so, he does so to you too, without you clearly noticing it?   YOu can also do likewise to him!   On all fours, yawn and stretch yourself, forward or backwards.

You surely know you shouldnt look directly at him. Look a little aside.  If you do look at him, half close your eyes, and blink slowly = warm friendship.

This with  hand forward, curled fingers is also good - they do so themselves, if they for example are lying down so they cant strech out. Or are too lazy for it.

Good also, you do have this friendly stray there, who is teaching him some tricks.   Use her as your positive example.   Pet with her, love her, so he sees your positive interaction with her.   Give her treats, so he sees its nice to get treats, and maybe gets a little jelaous.   Directly afterward give them to him too...

Talk much in  baby voice if you wish..  Friendly noises is a language cats uses themselves. For example, friendly toms who do court a female.   Dominant, hostile,  unfriendly toms just takes what they want...

Keep reporting and asking!

Good luck!

Thanks for the replies and tips! Yes, I didn't mention it, but he does often stretch and yawn when he is sitting near our feet on the floor, great to hear that this is a good sign! I didn't mention it, but he also looks at us with squinty eyes and yawns/blinks quite a lot as well, and we do the same to him I will definitely try the stretching thing.  Just petted him a little with his feather toy, and this time he actually turned his head a little so I could pet him on the side of his cheek, closed his eyes and leaned into it, so he seemed to be enjoying it (then of course Maja pounced on the toy). And @Ondine, glad to hear you enjoyed the picture! It was one of his first ever pictures, he was so surprised by the camera sound that he forgot to put his tongue back in his mouth for several seconds!   

I will take the advice to heart and let time do its work. BTW, now that he is starting to discover our hands, he has sometimes reached out a paw and patted them, not aggressively, but still with a little bit of claws out. What should I do when this happens? Not react at all and keep my hand still and let him keep doing it, or say "no"/move it away? 

Blinking is a feral greeting - like a warm smile.  We blink at our two former feral, Chester, all the time and it still brings tears to my eyes when he blinks back.  He's telling you he thinks you're cool..

Hi

We have learnt so much from this site and feel we are making good headway with our 2 feral kittens(although they still dont want to be touched much---but thats

ok with us--so they seem to relax more and more).

One thing I would like to share is----------the amazing response we have had by giving them Gerbers Baby food(#2--chicken) as treats in the morning --

Maybe you would like to try this---

Goodluck

Tony and Kat Wyne-Roberts

What a face!!! He looks like a big, big boy ...or maybe it's just a really small chair

This site is a really amazing site - the members here are SO helpful. I'm glad you found your way here! No question is too strange - so don't hesitate to ask. Someone around here is likely to have input!

I'm not sure how much I can add to the above, other than to agree with it  Ferals are such a "different animal" - as I'm sure you're learning already. Although I agree with Ondine - it sounds as though he's not a "true feral" in that he's tolerating human interaction alot more (believe it or not) than a true feral. Chances are he's been, at the very least, someone's outdoor cat at some point.  I know your progress does feel so slow, and at times it feels that you're not making progress at all, but you are. I got the best advice ever when I first found this site..."socializing ferals is understanding it's two steps forward and one step back." And every one is different. I had a batch of kittens that we brought in at 8 weeks, and one tamed within a week - the others (even starting at that young age!) took months. So you're not alone --- or, it sounds like, doing anything "wrong."

I will definitely second the Gerbers Chicken 2nd stage baby food. It's worked wonders for me. I know you said that your other cat is a food hound....but maybe if you try offering it on a spoon to Mandu (and what a great name, by the way!!! I may steal that for my next foster kitten) while you lie on the floor with your hand outstretched with it on a spoon. And since it sounds like Maja might hog it - - maybe you could distract him first with a bowl of his favorite food in the kitchen. I know with the final two feral kittens one was a total food hound and the other was much more cautious....so we ended up distracting the "food hound" by giving him something first and distracting him - some of the Gerber's smeared in a thin layer over a plate so he had to work at it, while I worked on feeding the more cautious one with a spoon. I eventually worked up to feeding with a spoon on my lap, and then being able to pet while he was eating. Again - this was all VERY slow going. 

And don't forget - some cats never do end up being thrilled about being petted. 

Lastly - is he neutered? That could also make a difference.

Keep us all posted - it sounds like you're doing an amazing job!

Thank you for your reply! He IS a big, big boy, which is also why I can't help but feel a little scared of him sometimes when he gets really close while eating and then suddenly looks up (the chair is an Ikea "Poäng" chair, if that gives you any size reference). Apart from that he's adorable of course. 

Also, I agree with what some of you have said in that he doesn't seem like a "true" feral - while he has been reclusive and shy, he has never seemed outright terrified or "trapped", he has always been very calm. And yes, he is neutered. I also suspect that he's pretty old... 

I will definitely try leading him into my lap for eating, and then petting him from there. He will come all the way up to us if we put the food next to us, so I'll keep working from that front! Currently I can pet him with his feather toy, and he seems to be enjoying it - he closes his eyes and falls asleep/yawns and stretches to show his belly.  By the way, are there any signs or indications in your experience (apart from basically ignoring you) that make it easier to tell if the cat is "ready" for petting? 

Like kittychick says, some cats are never fond of being petted.  If his tail starts to twitch, it can mean he's annoyed, so you can stop what you're doing and see how he reacts.  There is actually a neurological condition in some cats.  When they are petted to long or too hard, it actually hurts.

It's similar to autistic children - their nervous systems get overwhelmed more quickly than usual.  We have a cat who can stand one or two scritches, and THAT'S ENOUGH.  Just watch his body language and you'll learn what annoys him and what he can tolerate.

We have that exact same Ikea chair ---which interestingly enough, our cats love too despite having many other, softer choices.

Hope things continue to go well. 

Thought of your posts yesterday when I was taking pictures for a shelter I volunteer for --and I was taking pictures of a Maine Coone mix that was well over 25 pounds! I love Maine Coones - but certainly thought of you as I reached my hands in to this new guy that no one knew! Luckily he's a HUGE (in every sense of the word) sweetie.

I'm posting his pictures to their site later today...you might check it out sometime after today to see him and see what I was intimidated by (www.pawsandwhiskers..org)...his name is Kitty (hey - I didn't name him). If I can remember, I'll also post a pic in this thread if I can find a shot that has something in it so you can truly judge his size.

Hello again! Here comes a quick update (with pictures!) if anyone is interested. Things are progressing, albeit slowly. It has been days, if not a full week, since I've seen Mandu has been inside his normal hiding place (excluding the time I was vacuuming). Mandu has kept coming to sniff our hands and feet, and if you extend your fist to him while he is prowling around looking for something to do he will almost certainly go up to it. He accidentally nudges the hands/feet he is sniffing several times during the sniffing process, and doesn't seem at all phased by this but instead keeps sniffing until he is satisfied and retreats. About a week ago I had a total of five guests over, and Mandu ventured out of his hiding place several times to "go to the bathroom" making sure to casually sniff at least one foot or bag in the process

He has also started basically following us from room to room the same way that Maya does, even into the kitchen where he will now sit either behind the threshold or under the table and watch us as we cook. If we are a room for any length of time both of the cats will generally hang out there as well. In the mornings before feeding time he will run ahead of me as if he's scared, but then quickly come sauntering back (wide-eyed of course) just to check what's going on. He has hissed a few times, but he doesn't back down or run away. It feels like a pretty natural thing to happen since he's obviously venturing out of his comfort zone more often. In general things feel good!  

Now, question: since he has gotten the courage to examine our hands more closely, he has also gotten the courage to investigate them further by giving them a few healthy whacks. I'm not really sure what to do in this situation - I don't want to discourage him from coming up to our hands, but I don't want him to whack us either. Currently I say "noooo" in a slightly lower tone of voice when I see him raise his paw and get the perplexed "What the hell is this, must whack" look on his face. It kind of seems to work, he doesn't get scared but just walks away. Is this the right approach? 


Mandu and Maja during their morning routine. 


Big breakthrough as Mandu jumped up onto the table I was sitting at to skeptically look at my hands and what they were doing on the computer. 

Sounds like he's getting more comfortable, actually.  You are handling it well.  A sharp hiss when he smacks will work, too.  That's the way his mom and siblings would tell him to knock it off.

Thanks for the reply, I will try that. Despite him getting more comfortable, I have never seen him rub up against anything - is that normal? He does lay on his back and squirm around and claw the carpet for example so I guess he's still leaving his scent. Is it that he isn't comfortable enough to rub up against things or could it be that he never learned how? 

Of course we care

So glad to hear Mandu is coming along. It's amazing how the little things become such big breakthroughs don't they? Last weekend we picked up two 4 month-old kittens (brothers "Tom" and "Jerry" - Tom is the darker one on the left---and those are my enormous thighs below them) at the shelter where we volunteer. Poor guys were only 2 in their litter not to get adopted because, while the others were sweet, these 2 are terrified. Almost feral - acting terrified. When we got them home, they actually rammed themselves headlong repeatedly into the corner of the wall in the area where we have them - poor boys. But all of the sudden, yesterday morning, even though I did nothing differently than I've done for the past 7 days, both climbed onto my lap and purred! Who knows what tripped the trigger ---but I'll take it! Now, of course, sudden movements (heck, most any movement) still sends them cowering...but it reminded me that it's a slow process. And these guys grew up surrounded by people! The pic of them below is "the moment"  - I actually managed to record it for posterity!

So feel good about how it's going -- and I guess I"m trying to say that you never know when the next breakthrough will happen! And feel REALLY good that he even ventured out at all with people around. 3 out of 5 of our guys wouldn't even consider appearing with guests in the house! So I think that's HUGE!

I do Ondine's suggestion (we've got a hand lover too - and one of the kittens is a foot lover) ---sometimes I'll do a loud "EEEK!" when they do it --- which is the same concept as the hiss. It's what a littermate would do if bitten too hard. And I'm sure you already know this - never yell, or smack, or play with him with your hand (that just confuses him). And - the hard one - if he does whack your hand - don't yank it back (which takes practice if you're not used to one coming after your hand, since it's instinct to pull away). If you yank, he thinks of it like it's prey - or a game. Hopefully with time, he'll stop...and you'll get more confident about dealing with it. 

So happy all's well! And DO keep us posted!!

And I just looked at the photo I posted - I swear we don't live in an Appalachian wooden shack We block a large portion of the room where we keep foster babies off with large 4 x 8 plywood panels hinged with duct tape, so that they're forced to be a little closer. Smaller quarters speed the socialization. Once they get better, we open the whole room up.

I was just embarrassed to think everyone would think we have plywood and duct tape walls

The rubbing/marking thing is a good question. Honestly - alot of the ferals and kittens we've raised without moms don't seem to display this behavior. So I've never looked into it - but I do wonder if it's a learned thing...or at least an encouraged thing by mom. Kind of like covering in the litter box - partially instinctual, but definitely better in cases when I've had mom cats. If he's rolling around, stretching (which is the pulling) he's getting very comfortable. That's a vulnerable position that they won't do unless they feel comfy in their environment!

Haha, they look adorable!!! Tom looks particularly satisfied Fantastic that they finally "accepted" you, and I can't believe you actually caught it on camera! Those small moments really do start to mean so much, especially when you've been at it for a while! 
 

interesting note about the rubbing/no mom thing. Mandu is a huuuge stretcher, and he will often do the "happy baby pose" (on his back with feet in the air) while we're playing, or quickly poke Maja with his paw and then promptly throw himself down on his back and wait for her to pounce on his belly. To be honest I'm a little concerned about the no rubbing thing because I want to make him adoptable, and a big part of that would be to be able to start petting him. But if he doesn't rub I guess there's no natural instinct for him to really touch us, making it a little difficult... 

And yes, I am working on the hand thing! You can really see his eyes switch from "normal"-mode to "prey"-mode (scary), so I'm learning pretty quickly to keep movements slow and using my hands to play with him is not on the agenda  I will definitely try the hiss/eek approach!

Thank you both for the advice, and again, adorable kitties!!!