Removing kittens from the mother?

I'd really like your opinions on removing kittens from a mother that is, at least at the moment, an aggressive stray, and pregnant again as well, we think.

This is a rescue situation, so the cat came to us with the kittens and pregnant.  She is being spayed tomorrow.

They are about 3-4 weeks old, but the mother is unpredictable and has attacked me a few times after seeming fine (headbutting my hand, rubbing against my hands and legs, then suddenly attacking) when I've gone in to feed her and just sat back and away from them all quietly.

I hate to separate them but I can't handle the mother and the rescue will have her spayed and keep her elsewhere.  I have other cats and even though she and the babies are in their own room, I feel like it's a disaster waiting to happen.

The kittens are adorable and still okay with people so at least I can raise them the rest of the way and they can be neutered and put up for adoption.

But want to do the best for all.  Should they be kept together or not? 

Any ideas on how to handle the situation I might not have considered?

Would you separate them?  They are at the point they are just beginning to lap at food from a bowl with Mom, but still nursing.

Thanks.

This is a difficult situation. Is she still lactating? Probably I would wait until they are 5-6 weeks old, can eat on their own and then separate. 5-6 weeks old is still  young enough to get them thoroughly socialized. It would become more difficult if you start socializing after week 8. 

It's sad to separate them  from her mother but to their benefit from a longterm perspective. At least they would have each other. And you as their new "mother."

I hope this helps.

We would have waited as you suggested but the pregnancy made it complicated.  We wanted to get her spayed and have the pregnancy taken care of  as soon as possible because we're not sure exactly how far she is (nor do we know the exact age of the kittens).

So that would mean taking her out, traumatic for her and the kittens, then bringing her back then traumatizing them again in about 2 weeks.  Do you think that would still be preferable to just not returning her after she gets spayed tomorrow?

It's a tough call, it makes me feel terrible, and not a situation I've had experience with.

I don't even know if this is related to hormones or not and if just spaying and her not being pregnant would calm her to the point where she is not dangerous.  Right now she is attacking.   The aggressive cats I've dealt with in the past have all retreated when given the chance.  She attacks.

And yes, she is lactating as she is feeding her 4 present kittens.

Shame too because they're really great and when she's not aggressive, she's a real sweetie.  Jeckyll and Hyde.

Also, they would not only have me, I'd start them off in a big soft-sided playpen until they were tested, where they'd also have my cats, a few other kittens I'm fostering, and some adult fosters as well to interact with.  I'm more concerned about Momma who'll be left at the clinic for a couple of days.  Poor thing.  I really hate people who do this to pets.  We think she was physically abused (she's terrified of hands and anything that looks like a stick) and then when pregnant told the rescue if they didn't come pick her up they'd throw them all out in the street in the freezing cold.

People create this and then throw them out.  Sigh.

Yes, it is a people problem but bless you for tackling this.  I am leaning toward taking them now.  As soon as they are tested and you can introduce them to your cats, so do.  I say this because they are so young, they have not yet learned to be cats.  Litter box training is one example.  It is instinctive but the more they see adult cats using the box, the better chances they will learn to use it properly.  Grooming is another issue.  We have a cat who was just three weeks when we got her.  She has eye "boogies" all the time because she never learned to groom her face and I had no clue she needed to learn it!

I say take them now for the same reasons you give.  Why traumatize everyone twice?  Hopefully, the pregnancy is why mom is Jeckyll and Hyde.  Her hormones must be awful - that and trying to care for kittens must be driving her nuts.

Good luck!

Oh sorry, I read too quickly. She is being spayed tomorrow. Ok , well, then I agree with Ondine.  

Ah, if you have foster moms to help out, the answer becomes much easier.  Do so, it will be OK and feasible with them, and a big relief for you.   After all, you too must live, no?   

Good luck!

Me live?  LOLOLOL  The rescue knows me already.  The moment there is an open space here, they've got kittens and/or cats to fill it. 

Well, Mom is on her way and the kittens are set  up in the playpen.

And interestingly, there are no foster kitty Moms here.  The females here are all too self-involved.  Ironically it's the male cats that seem to always help me take care of the kittens.   I have one in particular, Shadow, who is the most amazing ambassador cat and he just loves to take care of babies.  In fact, if you're interested, here's a link to a video of him nursing some of my previous foster kittens.


And a short video of these four (orange one is Thumbelina, tux is Basil, beige one is Portia and large orange one at the end is Sonny Corleone -- called that because he kept trying to have me killed by jumping on me in front of Momma when I went into the room) ...


In the less than about 2 weeks they've been here, they're at least 3 times the size they were in this video. 

Shadow's already loving them up.  I'll let them interact with everyone else once I get the test results.

I think this was the right thing, because this morning when I went into the room, they were starting to hiss at me, and they hissed at the rescue people, so it's early enough to turn them around into love bugs, which, along with Shadow, is our specialty.   

I'm still not sure if we're going to bring Momma back here after surgery or not, it's mainly the rescue's decision really (although they'll let me decide if I want).  Still a tough one, because I worry about Momma as well, and would like to see her socialized also.

Whoah they are adorable!

You've definitely made the right move.  They are big enough to get by without her, and too young to pick up on her defenses. 

Props to Shadow for being such a great nanny!

Thanks for the thumbs up.  It was a tough decision.

Shadow is something else.  Anyone who says black cats are bad luck are crazy.  I found Shadow when he was a kitten living under the shed in the back when I moved in here.  He's brought me nothing but good ever since.  He's fabulous.

Now I just have to get the kittens to eat and use the litter box.  They don't want the bottle, and though some of them have lapped a bit at some formula that I had been feeding Mom, they still want Mom.

Big kittens to stimulate too.  Shadow did it a few times, but I'm doing the majority.  They are huge compared to the video now.

I'll get another picture and post it here.  They really are cuties.  You can't see it in the video, but the tuxedo kitten's face looks just like Grumpy Cat.  And that first orange one, that one we didn't even think would make it, it was so tiny and skinny.  Once we got Mom eating, it was uphill all the way.  I just wish she wasn't so volatile.

Here's an update --

The kittens are doing great on their own.  They are eating on their own and using the litter box in their playpen condo .   Mom tested negative, so I let them out for about 1/2 hour today and they had a hell of a time playing with some of the other foster kittens and kitten-friendly adults here.  On the bed.  Off the bed.  all around and on everything and having a grand old time.  Learning how to jump on the computer and keyboard at the most inopportune times (being taught well by the current resident kittens).  Making friends and then occasionally coming over to me for reassurance. 

Momma was pregnant and has been spayed.  She is at the home of someone from the rescue to recuperate.  Then we are going to talk about whether we will reunite them again or not.   I'm leaning towards not, because I'd hate to have them put through this again when both sides are doing well.i999

On the other hand, I was told that she got out of the cage after she was spayed and was walking around and making friends with just everyone.   The woman from the rescue said she's been able to pick her up and hold her like a baby and she's been just great.

It could be an issue of hormones raging now gone.

Or it could be she's away from the kittens so has nothing to "protect."

Or it could be she just hated me.  LOL

Not something I'm used to, but it had to happen sometime. LOL

So we're not sure how she'd react bringing her back, or if being back in the old environment would trigger the old reactions.

so maybe being put up for adoption now would be the best thing for her.

Any opinions?

How wonderful that Mom is spayed now and reacting so well.  I hope the best for the Mom and all her kitties.  No advice/opinions on whether to reunite them, but just wanted to say how awesome things are going so well.  It is a hard job and you have done amazing work!

If the kittens are doing well on their own, I wouldn't reunite them.  Mom's probably already gotten used to being without them and its time for her to go onto her new life.  The kittens can learn to be cats from their foster brothers and sisters.  I see no sense in putting them through a reunion, only to be separated again.

Good news about all of them!  Thank you for helping them all!!!!