At wit's end

Our 12y.o. spayed female, Sassy, began going outside the box ~5 months ago.  We don't really know an instigating circumstance.

We have been at this house for 19 months (approx. 14 months when this started), and had not had a problem before.  We have a 13 y.o. neutered male, Striker, as her full-time housemate.  We have had them both as indoor cats since adopting them as kittens.

We have (2) XL covered boxes, covered despite conventional wisdom because Sassy is a "stander" when she goes, and she ALWAYS goes against/over the side like an ass-backward graffiti artist.  Boxes are located in an open basement storage room with nightlights for each pan.  Other items in room are an unused weight bench, unused punching bag and some boxes of storage stuff.  The floor is painted concrete.  There is a furnace outlet providing heat to the room.  For the first 14 months, the boxes were side-by-side, each with its own Cats Rule Perfect Litter Mat (something we have used for about 5 years).  The boxes are cleaned 2-3x/day.

When this started, we decided to make a litter change, because this had worked in the past.  We kept some old litter to mix.  Didn't help.  We separated the boxes by 10 feet or so, in the same basement room.

Her occurrences got worse, although she would sometimes use either box for both, or one for feces, then unload urine on the litter mat, against the outside of the box (which, in case you didn't know tends to flood the urine under the box in the mat grooves).

We are in the process of relocating, and this is NOT making us feel good about having this happen in a new house or rental townhouse (undecided).

We have scrubbed the boxes multiple times, tried to change back to the litter we started with, changed both boxes to Cat Attract litter and moved one box to the downstairs bathroom with more privacy (showed Sassy, not Striker, yet Striker ended up being the only one to use the box there), and have now moved that box back into the original room.

Striker is unfazed by all this commotion and will go wherever he finds a box.

Sassy has taken to marking walls and leaving puddles of urine right in the middle of the concrete floor.  She HAD been at least using the box for her diarrhea, until this evening when she left it on the mat in front of one box and urinated on the outside of the other box, on the floor (that mat was still hanging to dry from this morning).

We are cleaning with some brand of enzyme cleaner, along with disinfectant wipes, and have washed the litter mats multiple times.  We even put down brand new mats and within (1) day, Sassy had defecated on one and urinated on the other.

I took her to the vet (3) weeks ago.  Bloodwork and a full-body image scan revealed a perfectly healthy feline.  Vet relieved her anal glands, suggested she may have had a slight problem with them and gave her a shot of medicine that he said would remain at a "therapeutic level" for approx. 2 weeks.  Its been (3) and I believe the medicine is behind the diarrhea, but that still doesn't solve the larger problem.  Vet could offer no other explanations or resolutions.

We have even taped aluminum foil to the bottoms of the walls after cleaning.  Small relief that this is the ONLY room in the house where this is occurring.

Love my cats, but really, really sick of cleaning up cat bodily fluids (Striker is a puker these days, but that is a whole other thread).

Cat Attract has not attracted Sassy.  Really don't know what to do as we begin to plan the future.  Sad.  Depressed.  Frustrated.

Sorry for the length; not sure how to convey all of that in a shorter fashion.

I feel your dispair and frustration.  I too had a 'pensioner' girl who for many years (most of her life) was one of those grafiti artists who never hit the box and in later years failed to appreciate when her butt was not fitting in to the box at all, and at times was obviously choosing for it not to.  She also started pooping outside the box when she was about 10 or 11 after a lifetime of leaving it uncovdered.   After many years of just living with this and feeling really frutrated I finally found a reason for her at least in that she had a chronic bladder infalmation after years of repeated bouts of cystitis. She strained to pee and always overshot the box or peed above the line of covered tray joints, and refused to poop where she went for the painful stuff.  My other cat started to miss the box as she got older and more arthritic, she seemed to have difficulty turning and positioning herself in the box and I resigned myself to the endless cleaning all over again. Then I discovered puppy training pads.  I always put a good size one under the tray so it would catch anything running out from the rim between the tray and lid and any pee or poop that missed landing in the tray because of the butt not fitting in.....   although not cheep, the good thing with the puppy pads is that they have the waterproof backing as well as being absorbant.  They stop the pee getting to the floor and also stop it running underneath the tray base.  Way easier to clean up and significantly reduce the number of cleaning chemicals you have to use.

They don't solve the problem that has developed with peeing in different areas of the room now, although some of that may relate to the strong odour that tends to result if a cat has peed outside the tray and it is on the floor / under the tray when they go back over to toilet again.  Also, if the concrete floor is porous it could be quite difficult completely removing the odour from it and you may have to really soak it with the enzyme cleaner to lift the traces that your cats will pick up on.

It does seem as if something is putting Sassy off the litter trays, whether it is something frightened her or has been uncomfortable at some stage, or if she has developed sensitive paws or something?

I am sorry I can't be of more help,  but I hope others have ideas for you as well.

There are some good threads with things other people have tried, here is one of them in case there is someting in there which triggers an idea for you:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/9563/inappropriate-peeing-problems-answered

Situation no different, maybe even worse.

We have restored both litter boxes back to 100% Scoop Away litter.  Its what we had been using before all this started.

We have put foil up, we have had to waste the Cat Attract litter, we have switched to Nature's Miracle Advanced for cleanup, have given Composure treats (calming, anti-stress), covered all windows in case its an outside animal, and STILL...this is all happening.

TWICE in one night, last night!

She has urinated on exactly the spot where I cleaned with Nature's Miracle (following the directions), she continues to defecate sometimes in/sometimes out.  Still more often it is diarrhea than formed solid, so I will be contacting the vet about that.

I'm sad no one else had more insight or help to offer.

Just for the sake of visual support, I have attached a picture (as best I could take it) of what the current room looks like.  She still has not done any of this outside this room, thank God.

Really, really tired of cleaning up feline bodily fluids...

So sorry to hear how things have gone this week, and can feel your exasperation and concern.  I wish there was more I could do.  The only other thing that is coming to mind is whether you have tried her with something open topped and possibly with low entry?  If not, it would be worth a try, even if it is something like a large, deep tote box with an entrance cut out on one side (possibly the longer side to try and encourage her to turn if she will go in there to begin with).

Hoping more people will see the activity on the thread and read, and perhaps come up with other ideas for you.

Sorry to hear about your troubles .. It can be very frustrating in not being able to figure out a workable solution.

A couple of suggestions would be to remove the lid of the litter box as she may be finding the current situation, too confining for some reason. You might also want to invest in a larger litter box solution such as an open flat-bed type tupperware container, or a large box type tupperware container and cut a square entrance large enough for the cats to enter. This second scenario does a good job of keeping litter inside. I switched from conventional litter boxes to the large flatbed tupperware containers to give my cats more room. I have a large brown tabby who needs a LOT of room . I also have a young Tuxedo who prefers to back up against the litterbox to do his business. Sometimes this has resulted in poop falling over the sides, but I have been working with him in encouraging him to move into the center more. 

And finally, there is a website called catinfo.org which is a site that is owned, operated and authored by a vet. The following link is to a page titled 'The Litter Box From your Cat's Point of View' which is an excellent read. Hopefully there is something here that will be useful to your situation : http://www.catinfo.org/?link=litterbox

Hope this can help.

Thank you.

Just curious...exactly HOW do you work with your cat to get him more "centered?"

When she used to go in the box, Sassy ALWAYS urinated against the sides/in the corners, but left her feces resting uncovered on top of the litter in whatever spot in the box.

We felt we had to go with covered boxes because of her "stand-up act."  When she was a kitten, she was fine.  I really can't remember at this point when she started standing and overshooting, but that has been the majority of her years with us.

I have contacted Nature's Miracle for additional advice.  I had contacted Cat Attract, also.  They were very gracious to respond and try to offer help, but we are no better off.

Called the vet this morning.  They pulled her chart, noted my question, and will have the Dr. call us when he gets in and reviews it.

billchamb said:

 
Thank you.

Just curious...exactly HOW do you work with your cat to get him more "centered?"

When she used to go in the box, Sassy ALWAYS urinated against the sides/in the corners, but left her feces resting uncovered on top of the litter in whatever spot in the box.

We felt we had to go with covered boxes because of her "stand-up act."  When she was a kitten, she was fine.  I really can't remember at this point when she started standing and overshooting, but that has been the majority of her years with us.

I have contacted Nature's Miracle for additional advice.  I had contacted Cat Attract, also.  They were very gracious to respond and try to offer help, but we are no better off.

Called the vet this morning.  They pulled her chart, noted my question, and will have the Dr. call us when he gets in and reviews it.

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I work out of my home and so am able to keep an eye on Thomas. When I have seen him about to have a BM close to the edge, I will give him a gentle nudge him into the center of the box .. Nothing scientific here, but it seems to be working as he has not deposited poop outside the box for some time.

The 'stand-up' method that Sassy employs when she goes is referred to by Dr. Pierson (the vet with the website) as 'elevator butt pee'ers' method. Dr. Pierson makes the suggestion that cats who stand to pee need an extra tall covered box, or else an uncovered box, for this reason. I really think her article, while is quite lengthy, can be very helpful to you and so would encourage you to have a read. Best of luck with Sassy. Hopefully between things you try and working with your vet, you can find a good solution soon for her!

MServant said:

So sorry to hear how things have gone this week, and can feel your exasperation and concern.  I wish there was more I could do.  The only other thing that is coming to mind is whether you have tried her with something open topped and possibly with low entry?  If not, it would be worth a try, even if it is something like a large, deep tote box with an entrance cut out on one side (possibly the longer side to try and encourage her to turn if she will go in there to begin with).

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That was my first thought too, getting a larger box with steps or an entry hole cut low down.
You could try the non-scooping litter as that tends to be cheaper. Seeing as she doesn't cover it anyway, you could just use a little and discard daily. However, Striker might not like the litter change.
I really wouldn't be surprised if there was an underlying medical cause that the vet has missed. This is just so persistent and she's an older cat.
I can feel your frustration and I really do sympathize. We dealt with our one cat's chronic and disgusting diarrhea for years when he was younger, and it really does drive you bonkers when you've tried and tried everything to get the problem sorted out. I hope you can get a resolution to this situation.

You could try this cleaner http://www.fizzionclean.com/    Many people including Jackson Galaxy swears that it is the only cleaner that gets all of the scent out.  It combines carbon dioxide with the enzymes.

You're really having a rough time of it and I applaud you for reaching out for help.  First of all, I'd recommend one or more Feliway diffusers to help reduce the stress.  She is probably picking up on your stress and it's not helping her at all.  The avg range of each plug in is about 500ft, so depending on the size of your home you'll need 2 or 3.  Place them all over your house, not just in the room with the boxes, tho one in that room is a good idea.  Don't place it right near the box, but in the room. 

Secondly, get a large plastic tote with high sides such as this one:  http://www.rubbermaid.com/Category/...e=Storage&SubcatId=Roughneck&Prod_ID=RP091418   Use a hairdryer to soften the plastic and use a box cutter to cut a hole in one end or on the side for entrance/exit.  Make sure it's several inches above the bottom so you have enough room for 2" - 3" of litter in the bottom.  Leave the lid off, too.  Your kitty may have arthritis which makes squatting to urinate difficult.  Also, since you have 2 kitties, you should ideally have 3 boxes.

You can also place a sheet of plastic (cheap shower curtain liner) under the box to catch any spills or urination outside the box.  Makes it easy to clean up and it won't soak through to the floor or carpet under.  A good enzymatic cleaner is also needed.  Sometimes Nature's Miracle doesn't quite cut the mustard.  You might try something like Zero Odor, http://www.zeroodorstore.com/ .  You can buy it online through their site or on Amazon, I'm sure. 

UPDATE:  Called vet yesterday morning and explained the situation to the receptionist who passed information onto vet when he got in.  Receptionist later called back to say now the vet wants to give her a round of antibiotics.  I believe the mediation is called "Flagyl" (sp?), 1/4 pill 2x daily.  In the meanwhile, Mrs. & I created a new open-top litter tub as referenced in @oneandahalfcats post above.  With a mixture of anti-stress treats (Composure) and sweet talk, Mrs. tried to encourage Sassy to see the delight and beauty of the new spot. 

At about 3am, we were awakened by Striker puking (yet, again) and discovered that Sassy had STILL urinated on the floor AND left a swimming pile of even runnier diarrhea in the middle of the floor.

The vet indicated (through the receptionist) that if this med didn't seem to help, we would need to take her in for some kind of steroid shot.  I think before we do that, I will think about changing vets.

She (Sassy) remains all sweetness and nice, and typically hides after such acts.  For our lives, we can't figure out the trigger (I no longer believe it is a stress thing, nor a medical thing) or what's next!

I think our next option is to lock her in our basement bathroom with litter pan, food, water and completely line the room (vanity, baseboards, etc.) with foil.

We anticipate moving in a little over a month.  Mrs. is VERY stressed about taking this situation to our new (to us) home.

Exasperating.  I just wish we could help figure out what's happening for her.  I do agree looking at another vet, even if only for second opinion, is a good idea.  Things do not sound right.

I can totally understand anxiety about moving to a new rental home without  having this resolved / understood.

If you feel you need to confine her to the one area and line it then as long as she is not feeling punished that could be the best thing for her.  It  may also give more information in terms of any anxiety behaviours.

I had one other thought last night - how long after moving to this property did the behaviour start? Do you know what kind of paint has been used on the concrete floor, or if there might have been anything soaked in to the concrete before? Just thinking about some of the materials and odours that might distress or confuse cats.

Thanks, @MServant.

I was away overnight and all hell broke loose.

We had been in the house for over a year before the beginnings of this started, VERY intermittently.

Since December, it has escalated quickly in scope and frequency.

Last night, for the first time, she urinated on the carpet outside of the basement room.  THEN, 2x today back on the concrete floor (having defecated in the new tub/box).  THEN, she actually went inside one of the covered boxes.

Mrs. was frantic today, and I was only available by phone.

This is reaching very bad proportions with very negative outlooks.  Don't know what else to do.  We are calling the other vet in the morning to try to get them both seen, as Striker continues his spew-fest, too.

I was going to confine her when I got home tonight, but we are granting a temporary stay until we can talk to the other vet.  (BTW, they each see different vets, so she will be going to Striker's vet if they will see her).

I get the frantic, I own my place and living with cats not using boxes accurately for pee and one not using for poop had me going crazy.  I never felt the place was clean, and was paranoid everyone would come in and think my home smelled and I couldn't keep it clean.  Never mind the d possible damage when it's not your own place.  And worry about what's causing it and if your cats are unwell or not, and now knowing how to help them.  Getting them both to the vet seems like a good idea, as something is definitley going on, what ever it is.  Has Striker only been sick more recently or has that been happening for a similar length of time?

I hope you manage to get an appointment with the vet quickly and they can come up with some other ideas.

Maybe puppy pads? They aren't super cheap but probably cheaper than a lot of enzyme cleaner, and easier to clean up. My mom had an older cat who only used puppy pads the last 5 years of her life.

Also talk to the vet about anti-anxiety medication. I don't know why he's trying antibiotics and steroids unless he thinks it's an infection or arthritis. Did you mention you think it's from stress?

I don't know much about health issues, but my Sassy peed standing, and was too big to comfortably use covered boxes. I found a high-sided litterbox meant to go in corners. It was 12inches high, triangular in shape, and had a 'dip' in the front to let the cat step in easily.  She could stand and pee, and dig all that she wanted, with minimal mess. I think I recently saw them in Petsmart? the high-sided corner box is a good alternative to the covered box.

Good luck with your old girl.

Early morning observation: 

Went to bed at 11p, after cleaning both boxes.

Woke up a little after 5a this morning.  Fed Sassy breakfast in the normal spot and she ate.  While she ate, I went to the basement and, sure enough, she had peed on the concrete floor, out in the wide-open middle.  BOTH boxes were as clean and unused as they were at 11p.  So, in 6 hours time, after yesterday's fiasco we have this.  I cleaned it with Nature's Miracle Advanced and added wider coverage of Nature's Miracle around the area.

I went to sit at my desk, not far from the top of basement stairs.  I noticed Sassy settle herself in at the top of the stairs looking downward (no lights were on down there.  She seemed unfazed or unrattled - i.e., UNSTRESSED.  NOT long after that, I noticed she ventured down; Striker was nowhere to be seen, the house was quiet, the furnace wasn't running.  I crept to the top of the stairs and watched her walk into the room with the litter boxes.  I waited.

She came back out, hesitated, then went back in.  I turned the light on for the stairs, pulled the door shut behind me.  She came running out trying to make an escape.  She had just peed AGAIN, next to the spot where the freshest cleaning of Nature's Miracle was still drying!  And it was between 5:30-6:00a.  So, TWICE in 6 hours this has happened.

I realize, as I write, that none of you have a clue what our house/basement really looks like, so some of this might sound strange.  Not sure how to help that.

Sassy meds explanation - see previous posts

@MServant - how do we make confinement not feel like punishment?  We are thinking she needs to stay in there for all but a few, limited access play/interaction sessions.

Vet #2 confirms no medical root cause for Sassy's behavior.  Confused about the diarrhea...until she let loose right on the table!  Certainly a large enough sample size, but he did not test it.  Cleaned it up and moved on.

Has given her a pro-biotic to try and straighten out her diarrhea issue and has prescribed Amytryptilene (sp?) to try to work on her anxiety.

He offered no further advice on getting her "back in the box."  Ugh.  He did discourage from confining her simply because there is no telling how much MORE stress that would put her under and be less helpful.

Ah, well...no firm idea of what next.

Personal aside:  house deal for relocating is in a little bit of jeopardy because of foundational water damage discovered by inspector.  YIPPEE!

I couldn't find it in the threads, but have you changed the 'brand' or type of litter? I've had cats refuse to use a litter box because they hated the litter. Also, you can get 'calming treats' on Amazon that may help relieve any stress she has. I know it's so frustrating, I do feel sorry for you having all these problems, I hope everything works out.

Di and Bob said:

 
I couldn't find it in the threads, but have you changed the 'brand' or type of litter? I've had cats refuse to use a litter box because they hated the litter. Also, you can get 'calming treats' on Amazon that may help relieve any stress she has. I know it's so frustrating, I do feel sorry for you having all these problems, I hope everything works out.

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Yes, we have changed litters, multiple times.

We had been using Scoop Away successfully.

We tried to switch to Arm & Hammer litter - used it sometimes, didn't use it sometimes;

We tried to switch to some brand of natural, corn-fiber litter - used it sometimes, didn't use it sometimes;

When things got significantly worse, we tried the guaranteed Cat Attract - she never set foot in it.  Total Fail!

Back to Scoop Away and had included a small amount of previously used litter as a "reminder."

We have been giving her Composure (3x day) for the past few days.  She eats them, generally seems as well-adjusted as ever, then STILL goes outside the box.

I suppose its possible Scoop Away changed their formula or something...anyone's guess really, but that's where we are.