At wit's end

di and bob

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You are definitely going above and beyond with this cat, so many others would have gave up.Bless you for giving her a chance!
 

oneandahalfcats

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Vet #2 confirms no medical root cause for Sassy's behavior.  Confused about the diarrhea...until she let loose right on the table!  Certainly a large enough sample size, but he did not test it.  Cleaned it up and moved on.

Has given her a pro-biotic to try and straighten out her diarrhea issue and has prescribed Amytryptilene (sp?) to try to work on her anxiety.

He offered no further advice on getting her "back in the box."  Ugh.  He did discourage from confining her simply because there is no telling how much MORE stress that would put her under and be less helpful.

Ah, well...no firm idea of what next.

Personal aside:  house deal for relocating is in a little bit of jeopardy because of foundational water damage discovered by inspector.  YIPPEE!
Hi bill,

I am sorry to read that there is no good news on the litter box front after changing it for the open concept style. I must say that I am quite surprised that Sassy's vet wasn't interested in getting a stool sample? Had her stools been tested before?

I would agree that putting Sassy alone in a confined space might seem like a punishment and make things worse. Wish I had more to offer you but without seeing the whole picture from your end, I/we can only speculate. Given that Sassy will be seen by Striker's vet next, maybe this will generate a fresh perspective and some ideas from this other vet on what is going on and what to do next. Very best of luck with this. 
 
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maddiemae

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We ran into a similar situations with our cats  over the years and were surprised by some of the causative factors for such behavior.  

Environmental: Has there been a change in the household among pets or humans?  A death of a family member or pet, a child or adult  moving out, extended vacations, returning to work after a long break, a divorce, prolonged illness, etc. all affect our pets emotionally.  These changes can affect the social hierarchy of the cats and the litter boxes are very commonly used to express dominance.  It may seem counterintuitive, but if your cats are fighting each other for dominance, the best thing you can do is support the one who has been traditionally dominant.  Social pecking order is very important to cats and they function better together when they know their places.  The humans are the apex of dominance and by offering support  and preference to the dominant cat, you are reinforcing the pecking order.  Mixed signals from humans can really upset the cats; every human family member must understand the importance of social pecking order and show preference for the dominant cat.  Once the pecking order is established, the poor neglected bottom of the wrung pussycat can be given more attention and love. My deceased Himalayan (old-age) had a battle with a former roommate's dog for dominance because my roommate did not respect the natural pecking order and encouraged her dog to be dominant when the cat was really the boss.  My roommate paid the price with a huge urine argument in the middle of the living room carpet.  The argument stopped when I explained how animals have hierarchy and she was not allowing the animals to be natural with each other.

Environmental II:  Do your cats feel safe in this home?  Are their places for them to hide and places for them to climb?  Previous resident  animals may have left marks in some of the rooms.  Cats have so much better smell than us.  Are there strange noises to your cats or neighboring cats coming up to your doors?  There just must may be something in the house your cats are reacting to and making them nervous.

Environmental III:  You said your other cat is having health issues, too.  When I lived in Wisconsin for two years, my cat had UTIs every three months.  I lived in three other states with her and she never had another UTI.  When one of our cats was sick one time, one of the other cats refused to use the litter pan.  You may need to keep the cats separate until you can resolve their health issues.  

Litter: There are many other litters that cats prefer to the commercial litter found in stores.  Think outside the box (pun intended)...peat moss, straw and wood shavings have been used for centuries in stables.  Shredded newspaper and certain commercial sands (check for cat-friendly chemicals) and gardening soils attract cats.  Make sure the ingredients are cat friendly and not harmful.  Organic does not necessarily equal safe.

Social: Even though the cats have lived together all of their lives, they may need to be reintroduced to each other.  Keep them completely separated for a while and then gradually over two to three weeks reintroduce them.  Gradually means at first let them hear the other cat from from a separate room and smell the other through socks rubbed on the other cat's cheek. Then let them see each other from a large distance.  Then let them have separate opportunities to explore the house so they can feel safe from attack and become more familiar with the smell of the other cat.  Then have them trade spaces for a short period of time.  Any time growling occurs, start over and take more time.  The first face-to-face introductions should have the cats in separate carriers.

Odors:  Some of the cleaning products you are using may be attracting or detracting your cats.  I would suggest moving away from the products you are currently using.  The best cleaning solution I ever came across is an equal parts mixture of clear dish soap, ammonia and water.

Cat behaviorist:  A cat behaviorist may be able to help you with your pussycats.

it is obvious you really love your pussycats and would do anything for them.  Thank you for trying so hard.
 

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..............

@MServant - how do we make confinement not feel like punishment?  We are thinking she needs to stay in there for all but a few, limited access play/interaction sessions.
She may experience any change as a punishment in some way but what I meant here was to make the general area as comfortable and inviting to her as you can, and avoid closing her in to the area around a time when she has soiled the floor or a time when things have been stressed around her.  Possibly using one of her preferred areas of the home if it can be adequately protected.  Would you confine her in the basement or another area of your home that can be easily cleaned?  Important to think about how you would socialize with her and give her companionship.  It might actually reassure her in some ways, difficult to tell not knowing her or knowing your home.   In terms of the risk of increasing her stress level you could try introducing her to a single / confined room and if she responds well go ahead and see if it helps, and if she is anxious and distressed then go back to the current arrangement and medication from the vet?

I have been thinking along the lines of @MaddieMae and wondering if separation my be something to try as it is possible something has shifted between them and contributing to her behaviour.  The two sisters I had reversed roles as one of them became more frail and that resulted in a number of behaviours - the newly dominant cat was the one who soiled my floors BTW.  She very subtly kept her sister in her place without me being aware of the extent of it for several years.  

You are putting so much energy and in to trying to resolve this behaviour, and have been so resourceful it is difficult to imagine how desperate you must feel.  Sorry ideas haven't helped so far.
 

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I know this may be pricey but maybe you can try setting up several types of litter pans with different types of litter all over the room all at the same time. You can always donate unused litter to animal shelters in your area .Also, I don't know how much Natures Miracle enzyme cost but Woolite makes a great pet stain and order eliminator too,maybe it 's cheaper.
 

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I have just read though all of the thread and you have certainly done everything for Sassy. One thing struck me in your last (I think) post. You say that Sassy peed twice in six hours?

Irrespective of where she is going, I think that this is too much and a big red flag that there is something wrong. How often does she go in twenty four hours? For example, my cat will do two huge pees every twenty four hours, and a poop every twenty four to forty eight . Any variation on this would make me very worried.

By the way I had the same problem as you. My boy is a stander but the problem was solved as soon as I removed the tray cover. He now perches on the corner of the tray and aims his bottom in!!! He has britches and I'm pretty certain that he does this as he has a horror of getting them dirty.

Anyway, back to your problem. Does Sassy go often and produce what I call a hot little pee? Apologies for using my cat as an example again but when he goes my husband often says "has one of the horses got in "....ie it is a good long ahem, flush out.

Have you considered diet? You say that your other cat is throwing up a lot. I don't want to give you a lecture about what you feed your much loved cats. However I feel that it could well be the root of the problems that you are experiencing . Please feel free to PM
 
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billchamb

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Thanks for the most recent responses.  It has been a long day for a number of reasons.  I will try to formulate and post some more clarifying info in the (eastern USA) morning.

Good night, all.
 
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billchamb

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Obviously, I didn't get to post yesterday.  The day took on a life of its own.

Suffice to say, there was still urine on the floor to clean up yesterday morning.  There WAS a sign of hope, at one point, in a clump of urine/litter in the open-top tub, but we can conclusively say it was "hers" because there was also more urine on the floor.  Got that all cleaned up. 

She had a dose of Amytriptilin and Probiotic.  She is now even less social.  Vet said it may take a few days for the Amytrip to "settle" in her system.  She HATES taking pills (I use a pill shooter).  She has been alternating behind hiding under a bed and laying on top of our guest bed (one of her favorite spots).

Mrs. and I went to visit friends for dinner last evening.  Came home to find to uncovered stools (a Sassy trademark), one in each box - one more formed, the other still diarrhea, but NO urine anywhere, in or out.

Gave her the second dose of Amytrip before going to bed.  Checked pans.  Now, early Sunday morning, pans are still clear of stuff, and there was urine in the middle of the floor AGAIN.

The Amytrip, even at a low dose, makes her just seem moody and sleepy.  She's about a 6 lb cat, and the dose is 2.5mg (quarter of a tablet) twice a day.  She still has moments that she wants to come and lay beside me, but mostly she just balls herself up to lay somewhere.

We have re-supplied with Nature's Miracle, this time getting the "Just For Cats - Advanced" if that makes any difference over the regular Advanced Formula we are already using.  I tried to contact the Nature's Miracle folks about their products through their online Q&A, but I guess I didn't ask my question clearly enough because their answer was completely unsatisfying.

Not sure how long to let the Amytrip work to judge whether or not its helping.  Hoping the Probiotic might sort her intestinal/diarrhea issue out and THAT would being the urinating back in line.  Holding out on confinement, but might still have to happen.

After all this time, and all these years, it breaks me to consider the last, extreme option of turning her over to a shelter, but as originally stated, we are at our wit's end.  We don't know what else to do, and don't want to move to a new home only to have it ruined by uncontrollable behavior.  I REALLY don't want to get to that point.

P.S. @Turks rule! - Striker has a long-standing sensitive stomach issue, diagnosed ~4 years ago.  He eats Hill's Prescription Dry Z/D, and Sassy eats it just because she can.  Vet said his more recent bouts of vomiting may be an intensifying of Inflammatory Bowel or Pancreatitis.  We have increased the Prednisolone to daily dose, and thankfully, he hasn't thrown up at all for the past couple of days.
 

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Obviously, I didn't get to post yesterday.  The day took on a life of its own.





Suffice to say, there was still urine on the floor to clean up yesterday morning.  There WAS a sign of hope, at one point, in a clump of urine/litter in the open-top tub, but we can conclusively say it was "hers" because there was also more urine on the floor.  Got that all cleaned up. 


She had a dose of Amytriptilin and Probiotic.  She is now even less social.  Vet said it may take a few days for the Amytrip to "settle" in her system.  She HATES taking pills (I use a pill shooter).  She has been alternating behind hiding under a bed and laying on top of our guest bed (one of her favorite spots).





Mrs. and I went to visit friends for dinner last evening.  Came home to find to uncovered stools (a Sassy trademark), one in each box - one more formed, the other still diarrhea, but NO urine anywhere, in or out.





Gave her the second dose of Amytrip before going to bed.  Checked pans.  Now, early Sunday morning, pans are still clear of stuff, and there was urine in the middle of the floor AGAIN.





The Amytrip, even at a low dose, makes her just seem moody and sleepy.  She's about a 6 lb cat, and the dose is 2.5mg (quarter of a tablet) twice a day.  She still has moments that she wants to come and lay beside me, but mostly she just balls herself up to lay somewhere.





We have re-supplied with Nature's Miracle, this time getting the "Just For Cats - Advanced" if that makes any difference over the regular Advanced Formula we are already using.  I tried to contact the Nature's Miracle folks about their products through their online Q&A, but I guess I didn't ask my question clearly enough because their answer was completely unsatisfying.





Not sure how long to let the Amytrip work to judge whether or not its helping.  Hoping the Probiotic might sort her intestinal/diarrhea issue out and THAT would being the urinating back in line.  Holding out on confinement, but might still have to happen.





After all this time, and all these years, it breaks me to consider the last, extreme option of turning her over to a shelter, but as originally stated, we are at our wit's end.  We don't know what else to do, and don't want to move to a new home only to have it ruined by uncontrollable behavior.  I REALLY don't want to get to that point.









P.S. @Turks rule! - Striker has a long-standing sensitive stomach issue, diagnosed ~4 years ago.  He eats Hill's Prescription Dry Z/D, and Sassy eats it just because she can.  Vet said his more recent bouts of vomiting may be an intensifying of Inflammatory Bowel or Pancreatitis.  We have increased the Prednisolone to daily dose, and thankfully, he hasn't thrown up at all for the past couple of days.
Sounds like you had some partial success with Sassy using the new litter boxes. This is good. There are bound to be setbacks however, given that this is a long-standing habit. The following link is a page on possible side effects of Amytrip, for your information : http://www.vetinfo.com/side-effects-amitriptyline-cats.html

Hope the next few days bring some good results.
 
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mservant

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Lost for words, this situation sounds so hard.  Hoping and sending strongest vibes I can for Sassy to improve with the Amytriptilin, she sounds so unhappy like Mouse is when he feels unwell or in pain, and she must sense the stress in the household too.  These drugs do take time to build in the system so give it a few more days at least.  In some ways, if she isn't changing her toileting behaviour on the new med' it might be oportune to try keeping her to one room when she is taking it. Fingers crossed you see a positive change though. 
 
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billchamb

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A minor success!

After cleaning up this morning, and administering the Amytrip and Probiotic, went to work.  Mrs. was in the house for a couple hours before I picked her up and we were out again for a bit.

When we got home she was just sort of moving through the house, ignoring any sweet talk we were sending her way.  She tolerated petting.  We put some fresh food out, and she ate.  Then she disappeared.

As quietly as I could, I made my way down the basement stairs.  As I got to the bottom, she came slinking out of the litter box room, looking guilty.  I tried to talk gently to her and reach to pet, but she apparently thought I was going to make a grab, and she crouched even lower to the floor before breaking up the stairs, but she stopped halfway and glared back at me.

When I went in the room, I didn't see any immediate concern, so I wasn't sure what she had been up to.  BUT, I quickly discovered what was either a marking or a standing urination punctuated by a blob of diarrhea on the inside back wall of the open-air tub.  NOTHING on the floor!  Never thought I'd be that excited about cleaning a litter box, but this is very hopeful.  We praised her and gave her a few small treats to celebrate, but I think it just confused her.

I'm now wondering if this has been a progressively worsening bowel problem since July, and if the Probiotic gets that straightened out if it will correct the urination issue.  Her last stool sample (months ago) that Vet #1 checked didn't indicate anything, but I also don't think they looked for anything besides obvious parasites, etc.

Sassy is playing it really aloof and reserved.  Last night, after medication, I tried to offer one of her favorite treats, Petromalt.  I had it on my finger, touched it to her lips, and she turned her head, ignoring me, seeming really angry.  You have to understand that she really likes Petromalt.  Hoping the medicine levels off a bit.

Not betting the house on it yet, but this is hopefully a good sign.
 

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Very glad to read this latest development! Hopefully you are seeing the beginnings of turning the corner on this situation.

If I may offer some friendly advice though .. try and resist the temptation to go into the basement when she is there to check on what she is doing or has done. Cat are very sensitive to our moods and so she may associate your checking with the times she has gone on the floor, and think she has done something wrong again. Cats need space, privacy and to feel secure when they do their business. Its best to let her leave the area before you go down to check. Again, very good news!
 
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mservant

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Agree this sounds like a positive development, and best to try resisting the check until she is clear of the space.  If she's still edgy and thinks you're going to medicate or something try giving her the treat without the need for direct contact so she will be happier and more relaxed taking it - then it should develop trust and hopefully she will get the idea not all approaches are going to be nasty medicine and start to come closer again.
 
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billchamb

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Setback.

This morning, I was awake early (4:40a), but didn't check the basement until later (7:30a).

Discovered a fairly recent puddle of urine on the floor, in front of the foil overlay shown in the pic on page 1 of this thread (at a spot that has been cleaned multiple times with multiple doses of Nature's Miracle).

There was also a small mound of diarrhea on the floor in a different area.  However, there was also a much more formed stool resting atop the litter (a Sassy trademark move) in the open-air tub.

Cleaned all that up and sat for coffee with Mrs.

She fed both cats, but noticed Striker glaring at Sassy, so she physically helped him find a new location.  As we sat, I saw Sassy stroll through the Living Room, ignoring my calling her name.  After not being seen for a little bit, she passed back through.  Automatically suspicious now, I went to the basement and found a fresh line of urine on the open floor, RIGHT NEXT TO the still-drying Nature's Miracle from the day's first cleanup.  There was also another, very small drop of diarrhea in the open-air tub.

Somewhere in the midst of that, Mrs. had to discourage Striker from having yet another staring contest with Sassy.

This is not good news to us.

She has now received the first doses of today's medicine, and a mani/pedi.  She allowed me to pet her afterward, but has since slunk back to the guest bedroom.

Ugh.
 

oneandahalfcats

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Setback.

This morning, I was awake early (4:40a), but didn't check the basement until later (7:30a).

Discovered a fairly recent puddle of urine on the floor, in front of the foil overlay shown in the pic on page 1 of this thread (at a spot that has been cleaned multiple times with multiple doses of Nature's Miracle).

There was also a small mound of diarrhea on the floor in a different area.  However, there was also a much more formed stool resting atop the litter (a Sassy trademark move) in the open-air tub.

Cleaned all that up and sat for coffee with Mrs.

She fed both cats, but noticed Striker glaring at Sassy, so she physically helped him find a new location.  As we sat, I saw Sassy stroll through the Living Room, ignoring my calling her name.  After not being seen for a little bit, she passed back through.  Automatically suspicious now, I went to the basement and found a fresh line of urine on the open floor, RIGHT NEXT TO the still-drying Nature's Miracle from the day's first cleanup.  There was also another, very small drop of diarrhea in the open-air tub.

Somewhere in the midst of that, Mrs. had to discourage Striker from having yet another staring contest with Sassy.

This is not good news to us.

She has now received the first doses of today's medicine, and a mani/pedi.  She allowed me to pet her afterward, but has since slunk back to the guest bedroom.

Ugh.
Hmm .. I wonder from what you have reported, if there is something going on between Striker and Sassy that may be causing Sassy to feel anxious resulting in the inappropriate elimination? Sometimes for whatever reason, two cats who once got along well, can suddenly develop an aversion to each other which can manifest in all kinds of behaviors.  Given that Sassy has gone both on the floor and IN the litter box, means she is trying to use it at least which is great. Something is obviously making her avoid it as well. Could it be Striker or something about his urine that may be turning her away? If so, it would make some sense to put some space between Striker and Sassy while she is trying to work things out with the litter box, or introduce a third box. I have a small female, who is much smaller than her male counterparts, and she intensely dislikes interruptions when she is in the litter box, of which there are two. She does not eliminate inappropriately, but she will sometimes leave the litter box and come back is she hears one of the males approaching.
 
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billchamb

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Thanks for that.  We were beginning to wonder about that, too.  However, in casual observation, he has not been around or in the area, when she has gone.

We do think he's become a bit grumpy since last Fall, but her going outside the box started in early July (or that's the best time frame we can put on it).

We continue to watch, wait, clean, what have you, hoping the medicines will help regulate and wondering, "What next?"
 
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After being gone for nearly 5 straight hours today, Mrs. & I returned home to find nothing more terrible than a small bit of diarrhea in the open-air tub/box.

Not sure yet what this means.  Still need to does Amytrip one more time today...morning will likely be a different story.
 
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billchamb

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Maybe another small improvement.

Before going to bed this evening, the open-air tub revealed an uncovered, well-formed stool and the other box held what may have been a Sassy urine as it was low and against the front wall of the COVERED BOX, which also included evidence of a Striker urine event (not sure which came first, but quite possibly the Sassy venture, if it indeed was her).

Just gave her the evening dose of Amytrip, so we shall see what the overnight brings.
 
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billchamb

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Awake at 3am this morning.

Basement check revealed a urine/marking with a dab of diarrhea against the inside back of the open-air tub.  NOTHING additional.

However, as of 10 min. ago (7:05a), she dropped a small, soft stool on the floor outside the covered box; thankfully no urine product.  Striker had urinated in the open-top tub, then left a covered stool in the covered box.

Is it even conceivable to have a "private, girls-only" box for Sassy, considering if we would add a 3rd box? 

Striker goes indiscriminately, and I don't think that's a bad thing.  I'm starting to think, though, he is using both boxes as an assertion mechanism.  When we tried to move the one box into a different room and only show it to Sassy, Striker still found it out and used it.  Sassy never did, so we moved it back to the original room.

I should know this, but what is the best practice to introduce a cat to a new box?  I was always under the impression if you simply place them in it for a few seconds, let them move their paws, that was sufficient.

Thanks to any who still have the patience to read this post/journal and offer insights and ideas.
 
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