At wit's end

mservant · Feb 1, 2014

@billchamb, I love that recent picture of Sassy, it reminds me so much of old Pal as she matured and how she would look at me. So sweet. And the new avatar is a lovely shot of Striker, he looks just like a young lion.

Giving pills is such a chore once a cat gets stressed about them, GoldyCat's suggestion of asking your vet about the potential for a cream to be absorbed through the skin is very interesting and definitely an option I would explore.

Second @amandatzl's comendation of your love and patience. As you said earlier, it is amazing to realize how long it is since you started this thread, and have been trying things since way before you came to TCS. Your cats are very lucky to have you guys and you deserve some good times ahead with your cats and your housing situation.

overwhelmed2 · Feb 1, 2014

Hi, I didn't read all of the responses so you may have already tried this, but my cat. in the last few years of her life also started to urinate near the litter box on the floor in the laundry or otherwise in the bath tub. All vet checks were fine but the vet decided to try her on a low dose of Acidurine (this is the brand name in Australia) which make makes the urine a little more acid - this worked! If I stopped the medication for a few days she would go back to urinating outside the box. It was concluded that she had low level chronic cystitis and her kidneys getting older her urine was a bit too alkaline and the bacteria was giving her the cystitis as it was not acidic enough to kill the bacteria. Again, except for one bout of major cystitis all tests would always come back all OK. After about 3 years of this she did develop kidney disease and passed away aged 18. She was a difficult to pill cat but didn't seem to mind the Acidurine if wrapped in ham (also this medication is the tiniest pill and she would only need half per day - also fairly inexpensive)

billchamb · Feb 1, 2014

MServant said:
@billchamb, I love that recent picture of Sassy, it reminds me so much of old Pal as she matured and how she would look at me. So sweet. And the new avatar is a lovely shot of Striker, he looks just like a young lion.

Giving pills is such a chore once a cat gets stressed about them, GoldyCat's suggestion of asking your vet about the potential for a cream to be absorbed through the skin is very interesting and definitely an option I would explore.

Second @amandatzl's comendation of your love and patience. As you said earlier, it is amazing to realize how long it is since you started this thread, and have been trying things since way before you came to TCS. Your cats are very lucky to have you guys and you deserve some good times ahead with your cats and your housing situation.

Thanks, but I feel like a complete ass, sometimes.

They have been essentially "problem-free" cats from the beginning. Mrs. entered into this marriage not being a fan of cats, but became a convert that led to Striker's adoption. Now, not so much a fan again, but empathetic toward whatever Sassy's issue is. As I wrote, its easy to be angry at her when it feels so spiteful, but anymore it is so much more pity and sadness that she isn't enjoying life for some elusive reason.

I haven't been an active part of TCS for quite some time. I can't believe when it says I've been a "member" since 2001. That seems a lifetime ago. Things were different then, and much different now. I am incredibly grateful for the patience and guidance throughout this thread that others have offered.

Sassy is an awesome little cat who has always been "Daddy's Little Girl" to Striker's "Momma's Boy." They're a great pair, with a great history. The recent past is just troublesome and frustrating.

I've been out to dinner with Mrs. and a few drinks to boot...feeling overly sentimental and sad about current circumstances. I really want there to be an answer and a resolution, particularly as the pending relocation draws closer.

Came home from Dinner out to empty pans and clean floor. Small relief, as I wonder what the night will bring.

billchamb · Feb 1, 2014

Overwhelmed2 said:
Hi, I didn't read all of the responses so you may have already tried this, but my cat. in the last few years of her life also started to urinate near the litter box on the floor in the laundry or otherwise in the bath tub. All vet checks were fine but the vet decided to try her on a low dose of Acidurine (this is the brand name in Australia) which make makes the urine a little more acid - this worked! If I stopped the medication for a few days she would go back to urinating outside the box. It was concluded that she had low level chronic cystitis and her kidneys getting older her urine was a bit too alkaline and the bacteria was giving her the cystitis as it was not acidic enough to kill the bacteria. Again, except for one bout of major cystitis all tests would always come back all OK. After about 3 years of this she did develop kidney disease and passed away aged 18. She was a difficult to pill cat but didn't seem to mind the Acidurine if wrapped in ham (also this medication is the tiniest pill and she would only need half per day - also fairly inexpensive)

That's very interesting, and I very much appreciate you sharing that information. I do not think I had heard anything like that previously. I will keep that in mind if/when we end up back at the vet for the next round of "What the...?!"

mservant · Feb 1, 2014

I found Overwhelmed2's post very interesting as the girl I had who was the chronic poop and pee outside the box critter had a chronic bladder inflammation. She did use her box mostly for pee but not all the time, and avoided it for poop because of the pain associations. Mostly she wouldn't have active cystitis but her bladder was inflamed and thickened as she got older. If you do go back to the vet, if they haven't scanned or felt her bladder ask them to do so. The increasing acidity of urine thing sounds familiar from some other post too.

lyndas01 · Feb 1, 2014

I have one solution - get a large tall plastic tub (clear is best) cut out a "door" for your cat to go in and out of - when the cat urinates it hits the wall and the urine stays in the box. I had a cat that did the same thing; Morris was quite old and I noticed that he would walk in to the litter box - stand and urinate. It is a great invention and it also keeps the walls clean. There was still the odd accident but not like it was.

Have you checked your cat for IBS - blood tests won't show this. My Gracie has kidney problems, arthritis, diabetes, and most recently IBS - I give Gracie a small amount of pure pumpkin daily, and have started giving her pro-biotics as well - it seems to be working - for her anyway.

baileytc · Feb 1, 2014

I hope you don't mind another person chiming in here, but I may have a couple of pieces of useful advice. I've been doing cat rescue for 10+ years and either I or my fellow volunteers have run into pretty much every issue a cat can have.

First off, the diarrhea: It is NOT normal for a cat to have diarrhea for this long. Sassy has either an infection or a health condition such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease. A few recommendations:

--First off, get a new vet. I'd recommend one experienced in working with rescues because they tend to have the most experience with difficult, non-standard issues AND they'll be mindful of costs. If you can't find a rescue-experienced vet, go for a younger vet who is more likely to be up on the latest treatments for various illnesses. I've found older vets to sometimes be unaware of the current trends and treatments.

When the new vet examines Sassy, ask about a few things:

1. If her diarrhea is yellowish and has a god-awful odor, then it's likely due to coccidia, which most rescue-friendly vets know is VERY difficult to detect in fecal exams unless the infection is rampant or the vet does what's called a direct exam (looking at a very fresh sample under the microscope). Most adults cats are immune to coccidia, but not all, especially if there's a stressor affecting the immune system. Standard coccidia treatment is a med called Albon, which will take 2-3 weeks to have much effect. Younger and/or rescue-friendly vets may be aware of an alternate treatment called Marquis paste; it's a horse dewormer that is beginning to be used off-label to treat coccidia in cats and dogs. Marquis kills coccidia, while Albon inhibits the organism's reproduction, which is why Albon takes longer to work.

2. Your vet has already treated Sassy with flagyl aka metronidazole, which is commonly used to treat diarrhea of non-specific origin. If it wasn't effective, then ask the vet about running what's called a diarrhea panel. It will take a few days and will be a bit pricey, but this will find infections that don't turn up in standard fecals. I fostered a momma cat this past spring who had diarrhea non-stop for two months; metronidazole, panacur, and Marquis improved it to the point where she could at least control her bowels but she never had a solid stool and couldn't gain any weight despite eating voraciously. The vet eventually ran a diarrhea panel which turned up a bacterial infection that hadn't shown up on any previous tests; the panel also showed which antibiotic would be effective. After two weeks of antibiotic treatment, she was fine: solid stool and putting on weight with no problems.

3. If none of the above helps the diarrhea, then Sassy may have an underlying condition like IBD, an allergy, or something more serious. It sounds like you're familiar with IBD, which can often be managed with prednisone and an allergenic food like z/d or the Royal Canin allergenic foods. There are other possibilities, and one of the best diagnostic tools will be an ultrasound. Again, it's pricey and there's no reason to do it until you've worked through the other options. If your vet suspects a food allergy, then treatment with prednisone should yield improvement by treating the inflammation caused by the allergy, but the vet will also want to put the cat on an elimination or novel protein diet to try to determine what she's reacting to.

--The urination outside the box MAY be physical but is more likely due to stress and anxiety, and frankly, the laserlike focus you and your wife have on her behavior and the litter boxes is probably making it worse. In terms of what's causing the stress, it could be any number of things, including your other cat, your impending move, almost anything including stray cats outside the house. The fact that your cat prefers to urinate out in the open makes me think that she may fear being ambushed in/near the litter box by your other cat, so you may want to try separating them for a week or so to see if that helps her relax. It also makes me wonder if she associates the litter box with pain, which would point back toward a physical issue that caused urination to be painful.

Assuming the cause is stress, an anti-anxiety med is warranted. Be aware they usually take at least two weeks to show much effect. I have no experience with amitriptyline, but one of my male cats has been on Prozac for almost a year after territory issues caused him to start urinating all over the place: the kitchen table, the printer (right in front of me), the newspaper, and--the last straw--down an HVAC vent. It's worked great, and it's very cheap. The generic name is fluoxetine; standard dosage is 5 mg/day, and it can suppress their appetite for a while when you start the dosage. Prozac is often the go-to drug for urination issues; so ask the vet about switching to it if the amitriptyline isn't effective. The vet will want to do a urinalysis (unless you have results from one performed by another vet from the last 1-2 months) before prescribing anything. The vet may also want to put your other cat on it as well; it seems counter-intuitive, but often the cat NOT acting out is also stressed, causing it to behave in ways that lead the other cat to pee inappropriately. So putting them both on the meds allows them both to relax.

Because Sassy has been urinating on hard surfaces, which most cats won't do, I doubt that confining her will be effective UNLESS the anxiety is caused by your other cat. The point of confining a cat to a small space with nothing but the litter box is to make it choose between going in litter--which cats inherently prefer to do because of their instinct to dig and bury their waste--and on the bare floor. Sassy has already chosen to go on the floor over the litter box.

A couple of other suggestions:

--It's impossible to have too many litterboxes in too many places. Give her lots of options. I know no one wants litterboxes all over the house, but it's a temporary experiment to try to solve a problem that's clearly taking a huge toll on you and your wife. You don't have to invest a lot of money in the boxes: You can make small, uncovered ones out of foil catering pans (Costco has them cheap) or try a used pet supply or thrift store for used litterboxes (just scrub them out with mild detergent before using).

--Checking the litterboxes multiple times a day and watching her intently every time she goes near the room with the boxes is probably stressing Sassy out even more. I'm sure it will be hard, but try to only check/scoop the boxes once a day.

--Add canned food to her diet, if it's not there already. The diarrhea is dehydrating her. Also, cats don't drink very much water because they're used to getting most of their moisture from their prey. Most inside cats don't get to hunt and eat prey, so if they're eating only dry food all day, they're making their kidneys work harder than they should. Feeding canned food ideally every day but at least three times a week will add needed moisture and may reduce the likelihood that she'll develop kidney problems as she gets older. Again, many older vets aren't aware of recent research supporting the use of canned food, which--contrary to popular opinion--does NOT cause diarrhea and can even help to prevent it.

I hope at least some of that is helpful. Good luck!

overwhelmed2 · Feb 1, 2014

Hi, i just wanted to reply to baileytc's post. While he/she gives some excellent advice I'm a bit worried about the repeated comments to find a younger vet. I took my cats to younger vets and it was only when I changed to an older one (late 50's/early 60's) that there problems were sorted out. Older vets have seen it all, and if they are professionals should be staying on top of their game. I work in a professional capacity and I'm not young (48) and trust me that the younger people I work with come to me for advice. Older usually (but not always) means more experience, more knowledge, wider range of ideas and solutions, more compassion. There are some wonderful young vets out there I am sure, but don't discount the older ones too.

oneandahalfcats · Feb 2, 2014

baileytc said:
I hope you don't mind another person chiming in here, but I may have a couple of pieces of useful advice. I've been doing cat rescue for 10+ years and either I or my fellow volunteers have run into pretty much every issue a cat can have.

First off, the diarrhea: It is NOT normal for a cat to have diarrhea for this long. Sassy has either an infection or a health condition such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease. A few recommendations:

--First off, get a new vet. I'd recommend one experienced in working with rescues because they tend to have the most experience with difficult, non-standard issues AND they'll be mindful of costs. If you can't find a rescue-experienced vet, go for a younger vet who is more likely to be up on the latest treatments for various illnesses. I've found older vets to sometimes be unaware of the current trends and treatments.

When the new vet examines Sassy, ask about a few things:

1. If her diarrhea is yellowish and has a god-awful odor, then it's likely due to coccidia, which most rescue-friendly vets know is VERY difficult to detect in fecal exams unless the infection is rampant or the vet does what's called a direct exam (looking at a very fresh sample under the microscope). Most adults cats are immune to coccidia, but not all, especially if there's a stressor affecting the immune system. Standard coccidia treatment is a med called Albon, which will take 2-3 weeks to have much effect. Younger and/or rescue-friendly vets may be aware of an alternate treatment called Marquis paste; it's a horse dewormer that is beginning to be used off-label to treat coccidia in cats and dogs. Marquis kills coccidia, while Albon inhibits the organism's reproduction, which is why Albon takes longer to work.

2. Your vet has already treated Sassy with flagyl aka metronidazole, which is commonly used to treat diarrhea of non-specific origin. If it wasn't effective, then ask the vet about running what's called a diarrhea panel. It will take a few days and will be a bit pricey, but this will find infections that don't turn up in standard fecals. I fostered a momma cat this past spring who had diarrhea non-stop for two months; metronidazole, panacur, and Marquis improved it to the point where she could at least control her bowels but she never had a solid stool and couldn't gain any weight despite eating voraciously. The vet eventually ran a diarrhea panel which turned up a bacterial infection that hadn't shown up on any previous tests; the panel also showed which antibiotic would be effective. After two weeks of antibiotic treatment, she was fine: solid stool and putting on weight with no problems.

3. If none of the above helps the diarrhea, then Sassy may have an underlying condition like IBD, an allergy, or something more serious. It sounds like you're familiar with IBD, which can often be managed with prednisone and an allergenic food like z/d or the Royal Canin allergenic foods. There are other possibilities, and one of the best diagnostic tools will be an ultrasound. Again, it's pricey and there's no reason to do it until you've worked through the other options. If your vet suspects a food allergy, then treatment with prednisone should yield improvement by treating the inflammation caused by the allergy, but the vet will also want to put the cat on an elimination or novel protein diet to try to determine what she's reacting to.

--The urination outside the box MAY be physical but is more likely due to stress and anxiety, and frankly, the laserlike focus you and your wife have on her behavior and the litter boxes is probably making it worse. In terms of what's causing the stress, it could be any number of things, including your other cat, your impending move, almost anything including stray cats outside the house. The fact that your cat prefers to urinate out in the open makes me think that she may fear being ambushed in/near the litter box by your other cat, so you may want to try separating them for a week or so to see if that helps her relax. It also makes me wonder if she associates the litter box with pain, which would point back toward a physical issue that caused urination to be painful.

Assuming the cause is stress, an anti-anxiety med is warranted. Be aware they usually take at least two weeks to show much effect. I have no experience with amitriptyline, but one of my male cats has been on Prozac for almost a year after territory issues caused him to start urinating all over the place: the kitchen table, the printer (right in front of me), the newspaper, and--the last straw--down an HVAC vent. It's worked great, and it's very cheap. The generic name is fluoxetine; standard dosage is 5 mg/day, and it can suppress their appetite for a while when you start the dosage. Prozac is often the go-to drug for urination issues; so ask the vet about switching to it if the amitriptyline isn't effective. The vet will want to do a urinalysis (unless you have results from one performed by another vet from the last 1-2 months) before prescribing anything. The vet may also want to put your other cat on it as well; it seems counter-intuitive, but often the cat NOT acting out is also stressed, causing it to behave in ways that lead the other cat to pee inappropriately. So putting them both on the meds allows them both to relax.

Because Sassy has been urinating on hard surfaces, which most cats won't do, I doubt that confining her will be effective UNLESS the anxiety is caused by your other cat. The point of confining a cat to a small space with nothing but the litter box is to make it choose between going in litter--which cats inherently prefer to do because of their instinct to dig and bury their waste--and on the bare floor. Sassy has already chosen to go on the floor over the litter box.

A couple of other suggestions:

--It's impossible to have too many litterboxes in too many places. Give her lots of options. I know no one wants litterboxes all over the house, but it's a temporary experiment to try to solve a problem that's clearly taking a huge toll on you and your wife. You don't have to invest a lot of money in the boxes: You can make small, uncovered ones out of foil catering pans (Costco has them cheap) or try a used pet supply or thrift store for used litterboxes (just scrub them out with mild detergent before using).

--Checking the litterboxes multiple times a day and watching her intently every time she goes near the room with the boxes is probably stressing Sassy out even more. I'm sure it will be hard, but try to only check/scoop the boxes once a day.

--Add canned food to her diet, if it's not there already. The diarrhea is dehydrating her. Also, cats don't drink very much water because they're used to getting most of their moisture from their prey. Most inside cats don't get to hunt and eat prey, so if they're eating only dry food all day, they're making their kidneys work harder than they should. Feeding canned food ideally every day but at least three times a week will add needed moisture and may reduce the likelihood that she'll develop kidney problems as she gets older. Again, many older vets aren't aware of recent research supporting the use of canned food, which--contrary to popular opinion--does NOT cause diarrhea and can even help to prevent it.

I hope at least some of that is helpful. Good luck!

I think we can all agree that the diarrhea is not normal, for sure.

Re. younger vets versus old, age of a vet is really no guarantee of skill or knowledge level. Vets all get the same training, but it is up to the individual to keep learning, especially when it comes to the subject of nutrition. I have had some amazing (older) vets who certainly knew their stuff, were compassionate and proactive. I have also had some vets who were only comfortable in doing conventional things, and did not have a great bedside manner which lead me to believe that cats must not be the primary species in their veterinary practice. It just depends on the individual, their particular training and specialty. I can see where cat-only vets, and holistic vets (which I use) might have more to offer than mainstream vets. A good vet will answer without hesitation or offense, and offer as much information to the pet owner as possible, but its also the responsibility of pet owners to do some homework as well in researching the information they are given so that they can better understand what is going on.

Re. the Coccidia (or Guardia), I believe the poster's cat was recently put on Panacur to address the potential.

Re. the potential for IBD, while very possible, dry food diets or foods containing grains are not recommended for cats with IBD. As the system is already inflamed and lacking in moisture, dry food or wheat glutens is the last thing you want to introduce. The poster has recently switched foods from Z/D to a food with more protein source in the hopes that this can help to firm things up. Prescription diets in my opinion, seldom work and are just so full of junk ingredients. The Royal Canin dry for instance, does not even contain any protein source. The wet food is better in that it contains a novel protein source but is not entirely grain-free as it contains rice and rice gluten.

You may have visited this site about IBD in cats, if not, its definitely worth having a look : http://www.ibdkitties.net/IBDguidelines.html

Amitriptyline is an anti-anxiety med.

You reference older vets again in your comment regarding canned food being better for cats and how older vets might not know this. I would definitely agree that wet food is better than dry food. I am currently working towards getting all of my crew off of dry. That said, I don't think age has much to do with the amount of knowledge (or lack thereof) or the importance a vet places on a wet food diet versus dry. All vets receive the same training, but very little of this has to do with nutrition. I think this factor more than age, may have a lot to do with the misconceptions surrounding dry food. My clinic has many young vets, and prescription dry food diets are a big feature, along with some grain-free to be fair. I don't subscribe to prescription diets, as many (if not all) of them are not species appropriate. On the pet owner side, dry food is largely seen as a convenience, but also, the unfortunate reality is that some cats just will not eat wet food and so some pet owners (reluctantly) feed a good, grain-free or the best dry food that they can afford.

I agree with you about constant vigilance being a possible contributor to stress. But I know how it feels to have a cat with an elimination problem, and the tendency to want to 'watch' the litter box. My male cat has been dealing with constipation on an off for the last two years. We are finally turning the corner after much trial and error.

therese · Feb 2, 2014

I would suggest getting to a cat specialist. I am new on this board so I can't post 'links' yet, but there is an association of feline practioners ....if you google it you may find one in your area. I had many many problems over time with my cats, health wise and behavioral....until I got to an actual Cat Specialist, whose approach to everything was very different than a generic vet.

I have a cat with the soft stool / diahrrea situation, smelled to high heaven and got worse and worse. IBD can only can be diagnosed thru a biopsy of some internal organ ( we didn't do that, too invasive and stressful ) so we didn't get an official diagnosis, but the cat vet and I put him one Vetasyl cap a day ( its like a fiber powder especially for dogs and cats, you mix it with water ) and I feed him dry prescription food, mixed with the Vetasyl cap, mixed with water.

The prescription food is WD for cats ( hills science diet ) and I found that whatever I fed him, it had to be under 8% fat content. He can't eat any canned food. With this 'receipe' he has had shaped stools, somewhat firm, for the last two years. If he goes off the Vetasyl/fiber caps and the low fat dry food, it comes right back, so he probably will always be a special needs cat.

But seriously, get to a cat specialist. I have to drive an hour each way to see mine, and I live in a pretty populated area ....but in the end, its cheaper and less work, because we dont' get misdiagnosed and go on 'wild goose chases" as we did with all our former general practice vets.

billchamb · Feb 2, 2014

"Laser-like focus" on Sassy's bathroom habits - I/we are not following her around (aka stalking), but trying to be attentive to what is going on. Consider it a byproduct/consequence of living in a borrowed house that we are in the process of moving out of (not to mention our desire to NOT have this behavior follow us to a new place). She has always shown a VERY low tolerance for an unclean box, but she still never went out of the box during the time we had only 1 box in our tiny apt for 4 years.

I would consider Sassy far-removed from being a rescue cat. Yes, its true we adopted her from the Humane Society, but that was 12 years ago.

This problem began before we knew we were relocating, before there was any other type of problem. It began as infrequent stool outside the box, but escalated late in the year.

Our other cat Striker was put on Z/D by a previous vet over 4 years ago because of stomach/vomiting problems. Sassy has happily eaten this food that entire time. This has not presented as a problem before, but we are trying to switch to Blue for Sensitive Stomachs. The concern here is last Fall we tried to go with Hill's Science Diet for Sensitive Stomach and it made Striker so constipated all he did was throw up instead of passing it. Right back to Z/D. We are at a 50/50 blend of ZD/Blue and wondering if it is beginning to bother Striker's stomach also because today he is acting very agitated and vocal (aka not typical).

Our current home has been established for 18 months.

We had gone from having 1 box for both for 4 years (because of size of living space) to 2 boxes, which both used very well until last July and the beginning of the infrequent stool outside.

Diarrhea began after a trip to the vet to discuss her increased frequency of "inappropriate elimination." Her anal glands were expressed and the vet gave her a shot. Thus began our diarrhea problem.

I am getting copies of her records from the vet that gave her the shot. All other medicines have been vet #2's response to the ongoing situation.

2ketzels · Feb 2, 2014

a little hint...when my Miss Kitty has a little accident I just move slowly toward it, clean it up and ignore her; it seems to be working because now if she has an accident she doesn't slink away or hide - she knows i can handle it! and...perhaps that she didn't do it on purpose

anyway congratulations!! that she's using the littler box!

baileytc · Feb 2, 2014

billchamb said:
"Laser-like focus" on Sassy's bathroom habits - I/we are not following her around (aka stalking), but trying to be attentive to what is going on. Consider it a byproduct/consequence of living in a borrowed house that we are in the process of moving out of (not to mention our desire to NOT have this behavior follow us to a new place). She has always shown a VERY low tolerance for an unclean box, but she still never went out of the box during the time we had only 1 box in our tiny apt for 4 years.

I would consider Sassy far-removed from being a rescue cat. Yes, its true we adopted her from the Humane Society, but that was 12 years ago.

This problem began before we knew we were relocating, before there was any other type of problem. It began as infrequent stool outside the box, but escalated late in the year.

Our other cat Striker was put on Z/D by a previous vet over 4 years ago because of stomach/vomiting problems. Sassy has happily eaten this food that entire time. This has not presented as a problem before, but we are trying to switch to Blue for Sensitive Stomachs. The concern here is last Fall we tried to go with Hill's Science Diet for Sensitive Stomach and it made Striker so constipated all he did was throw up instead of passing it. Right back to Z/D. We are at a 50/50 blend of ZD/Blue and wondering if it is beginning to bother Striker's stomach also because today he is acting very agitated and vocal (aka not typical).

Our current home has been established for 18 months.

We had gone from having 1 box for both for 4 years (because of size of living space) to 2 boxes, which both used very well until last July and the beginning of the infrequent stool outside.

Diarrhea began after a trip to the vet to discuss her increased frequency of "inappropriate elimination." Her anal glands were expressed and the vet gave her a shot. Thus began our diarrhea problem.

I am getting copies of her records from the vet that gave her the shot. All other medicines have been vet #2's response to the ongoing situation.

I understand Sassy isn't a rescue. The reason I mentioned looking for a vet experienced treating rescues is that they see everything plus the kitchen sink and tend to be sensitive to costs, while I've found that some private vets who treat primarily owned pets see a limited number of common issues repeatedly and may not "think outside the box" when it comes to problems that don't respond to standard treatments.

Regarding z/d: I've used it (both dry and canned) with great success in cats with IBD and allergy issues. If your cats have been eating it with no problems for years, I see no reason to switch. Because of how it's formulated (hydrolyzed protein), it's very unlikely to have suddenly caused the diarrhea in Sassy. Some people swear by Blue, but my foster kittens refused to eat it and I've known a few people whose cats didn't do well on it.

Cats can develop sudden issues with pretty much anything, including their litter boxes, their food, etc. A friend of mine adopted two kittens (brothers) who co-existed peacefully for years until a couple of neighborhood cats started fighting outside the window. The cats got stressed out and targeted their aggression at each other to the point that they had to be separated to prevent them from literally trying to kill each other. Eventually, Prozac solved the problem. But that's a good example of how suddenly problems can crop up seemingly out of nowhere, even in an established, calm environment.

oliverandmax · Feb 2, 2014

Zep pet and stain remover from Home Depot is great for removing pet urine stains from floors, walls, furniture, etc. Cheap too, just wish they sold it in Gallon size.

baileytc · Feb 2, 2014

oneandahalfcats said:
I think we can all agree that the diarrhea is not normal, for sure.

Re. younger vets versus old, age of a vet is really no guarantee of skill or knowledge level. Vets all get the same training, but it is up to the individual to keep learning, especially when it comes to the subject of nutrition. I have had some amazing (older) vets who certainly knew their stuff, were compassionate and proactive. I have also had some vets who were only comfortable in doing conventional things, and did not have a great bedside manner which lead me to believe that cats must not be the primary species in their veterinary practice. It just depends on the individual, their particular training and specialty. I can see where cat-only vets, and holistic vets (which I use) might have more to offer than mainstream vets. A good vet will answer without hesitation or offense, and offer as much information to the pet owner as possible, but its also the responsibility of pet owners to do some homework as well in researching the information they are given so that they can better understand what is going on.

Re. the Coccidia (or Guardia), I believe the poster's cat was recently put on Panacur to address the potential.

Re. the potential for IBD, while very possible, dry food diets or foods containing grains are not recommended for cats with IBD. As the system is already inflamed and lacking in moisture, dry food or wheat glutens is the last thing you want to introduce. The poster has recently switched foods from Z/D to a food with more protein source in the hopes that this can help to firm things up. Prescription diets in my opinion, seldom work and are just so full of junk ingredients. The Royal Canin dry for instance, does not even contain any protein source. The wet food is better in that it contains a novel protein source but is not entirely grain-free as it contains rice and rice gluten.

You may have visited this site about IBD in cats, if not, its definitely worth having a look : http://www.ibdkitties.net/IBDguidelines.html

Amitriptyline is an anti-anxiety med.

You reference older vets again in your comment regarding canned food being better for cats and how older vets might not know this. I would definitely agree that wet food is better than dry food. I am currently working towards getting all of my crew off of dry. That said, I don't think age has much to do with the amount of knowledge (or lack thereof) or the importance a vet places on a wet food diet versus dry. All vets receive the same training, but very little of this has to do with nutrition. I think this factor more than age, may have a lot to do with the misconceptions surrounding dry food. My clinic has many young vets, and prescription dry food diets are a big feature, along with some grain-free to be fair. I don't subscribe to prescription diets, as many (if not all) of them are not species appropriate. On the pet owner side, dry food is largely seen as a convenience, but also, the unfortunate reality is that some cats just will not eat wet food and so some pet owners (reluctantly) feed a good, grain-free or the best dry food that they can afford.

I agree with you about constant vigilance being a possible contributor to stress. But I know how it feels to have a cat with an elimination problem, and the tendency to want to 'watch' the litter box. My male cat has been dealing with constipation on an off for the last two years. We are finally turning the corner after much trial and error.

I'm not saying a younger vet is a sure solution, but I've found that recent vet-school graduates AND experienced vets who are diligent about continuing education tend to have a very good grasp of the latest treatments. One recent grad told me that her vet program used only Marquis to treat coccidia, while almost every older vet I talked to, even a couple who worked with rescues, hadn't even heard of it.

Panacur treats giardia but not coccidia. Only Albon or Marquis will treat coccidia.

We'll have to agree to disagree on z/d and dry food in general for IBD. A foster of mine with severe IBD was successfully weaned off of prednisone entirely and we've been able to manage her condition entirely via feeding z/d, both dry and canned. The rescue I volunteer at has also used z/d (primarily dry) with great success with an IBD cat. That's not to say that another hypoallergenic food like Royal Canin's line wouldn't also have worked, but my foster preferred the z/d over the RC.

As far as food choices go, I've found Dr. Lisa Pierson's analysis and recommendations sound, as have several vets I work with: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf.

I'm aware that amitriptyline is an anti-anxiety med, but when looking into it for my cat who had his own pee issues, I found little research proving its efficacy in treating inappropriate urination issues compared with Prozac. I've had several vets describe Prozac to me as the first and usually most effective drug they try for pee problems, with Clomicalm as the backup.

baileytc · Feb 2, 2014

Overwhelmed2 said:
Hi, i just wanted to reply to baileytc's post. While he/she gives some excellent advice I'm a bit worried about the repeated comments to find a younger vet. I took my cats to younger vets and it was only when I changed to an older one (late 50's/early 60's) that there problems were sorted out. Older vets have seen it all, and if they are professionals should be staying on top of their game. I work in a professional capacity and I'm not young (48) and trust me that the younger people I work with come to me for advice. Older usually (but not always) means more experience, more knowledge, wider range of ideas and solutions, more compassion. There are some wonderful young vets out there I am sure, but don't discount the older ones too.

I agree: Older vets who are diligent about continuing education can be great. I've just found them to be a bit scarce. Believe me, I've got nothing against older professionals--I'm the same age you are.

The best vets--in my experience--are those who work extensively with rescue groups. Through their rescue work, they have lots of opportunities for continuing education provided by organizations like Maddie's Fund, and often, the same problems that afflict rescue cats are prevalent and undiagnosed in owned cats.

mservant · Feb 2, 2014

billchamb said:
..........

Our other cat Striker was put on Z/D by a previous vet over 4 years ago because of stomach/vomiting problems. Sassy has happily eaten this food that entire time. This has not presented as a problem before, but we are trying to switch to Blue for Sensitive Stomachs. The concern here is last Fall we tried to go with Hill's Science Diet for Sensitive Stomach and it made Striker so constipated all he did was throw up instead of passing it. Right back to Z/D. We are at a 50/50 blend of ZD/Blue and wondering if it is beginning to bother Striker's stomach also because today he is acting very agitated and vocal (aka not typical).

.........

Diarrhea began after a trip to the vet to discuss her increased frequency of "inappropriate elimination." Her anal glands were expressed and the vet gave her a shot. Thus began our diarrhea problem.

I am getting copies of her records from the vet that gave her the shot. All other medicines have been vet #2's response to the ongoing situation.

Oh no, I hope Striker settles and his stomach issues haven't been irritated by the diet trial.

I don't know how others manage when 2 cats are used to eating together and sharing food, and there are limited oportunities to seperate them off to manage special diets. It's something I've been giving thought to recently with my boy as I would have this if I introduced another cat in to our household (Mouse is on prescription td for his dental issues).

Keep reminding yourself where things were at with Sassy when you started this thread and that things have changed in positive ways as well as all the worries and backward steps. Hang in there.

It will be interesting to see what the second vet's take on the previous records is, and potential for looking at any 'low grade' bladder issues that might not have shown up in previous tests.

oneandahalfcats · Feb 2, 2014

MServant said:
Keep reminding yourself where things were at with Sassy when you started this thread and that things have changed in positive ways as well as all the worries and backward steps. Hang in there.

It will be interesting to see what the second vet's take on the previous records is, and potential for looking at any 'low grade' bladder issues that might not have shown up in previous tests.

Yes, good point. Sassy has definitely made some good strides in using the new litter boxes more than she was a couple of weeks ago.

billchamb · Feb 2, 2014

It is just unsettling that Sassy could be on so many meds and STILL manage to have diarrhea. That's the most troubling part right now. SOMETHING should be helping her. Mrs. believes this is the immediate cause to Sassy's misery more than anything else.

Mrs. & I are weighing options of trying to find a feline specialist. A member posted a link above to "catvets" and, oddly enough vet #2 is in that database. I'm not sure that carries much weight, though.

Wet food - I do hear/read what all of you are saying on this topic. We used to give wet food until Striker's stomach problems brought the ZD into play. We tried wet CD, DD and ZD and neither cat would go for them. WE threw them out.

Time is growing short and the anxiety of taking a "problem" cat into a new home is very high. We realistically have about a month to get ALL of this sorted out and solved.

We feel captive to this, even to the point of worrying about whether or not having someone visit for the weekend might be an issue. Note: this hasn't been a stressor for Sassy in the past.

It is one of those days where it feels like too much with no real solution.

billchamb · Feb 2, 2014

Follow-up environmental notes:

The weight bench and weights have been removed from the room.

We have not had the Litter Mats down for a couple of weeks, as they just seemed to present a "target," despite our best cleaning efforts.

The wooden trunk/case has been removed from the room.

The entire room has been ringed with aluminum foil to prevent Sassy urinating/marking on any of the walls, esp. the wood paneling.

We have continued to leave a light on 24hrs/day. We have convinced ourselves this has reduced the frequency, but acknowledge it has not solved what we thought was the problem.

Window curtain is still intact.

Packing for the move continues around the house. Sassy has been exposed to this experience twice over the past 5.5 years.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Still contemplating adding another open-air tub, just haven't committed to it, yet.

At wit's end

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