Lola Cat Update -- The Diarrhea Diaries Part II (Clostridium and Coronavirus)

So, since this post, the vet got all the test results back from her panel.

She came back positive for Clostridium and Coronavirus. The vet is going to give me metronidazole and diarsonyl gel (which did seem to help the last week).

I'll back up.

Since her last visit, she relapsed, even when I switched foots to Instinct and used Natural Factors Acidophilus & Bifidus Double Strength with Goat Milk (someone recommended that over Forta-Flora/Bene Bac). She had a few accidents and I started seeing bright red blood in her diarrhea. I panicked and called the vet, even though the results weren't fully back yet. She put her on the diarsonyl gel, which DID seem to help--still diarrhea, but not as much, and I don't THINK there was any blood. No accidents.

The dose ended of the diarsonyl two days ago, and with its end, came the accidents. She pooped ON THE BED. Before, it was always near the box, like, she just didn't quite make it, but now it's ON THE BED. I'm at my rope's END at this point. So, I called the vet and she returned the call today, and now that's where we're at -- the Clostridium and Coronavirus, the metro and diarsonyl again.

Does ANYONE have anything to share about this?

If no improvement in a week, I have to call, and we might be seeing a specialist.

HOWEVER. I just feel in my gut (bad pun) that it's IBS. I want to start feeding her homecooked/raw, but we have no kitchen. HOPEFULLY we will have appliances and the kitchen back up in a week so we can try that, but this remodel isn't helping things. And the vet does agree that it certainly could be, but she doesn't want to put a one-year cat on steroids without seeing a specialist first.

I'm so sorry. I would keep her on the Natural Factors, that's a healthy probiotic choice. BUT - it doesn't help much against coccidia and the clostridium strains. What works for those is a yeast-based probiotic, Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii). Because it is yeast-based and doesn't actually colonize the gut the way regular probiotics do, it can be used at the same time as antibiotics (so you can use it while giving the metro).

PLEASE read this thread - this REALLY works. Now - the brand used in this thread was Jarrow, which is S. boulardii + MOS (a growth medium). This is NOT palatable to cats (most cats), and it was hard to get it in them. You can try it, and see if you can find a way to get your kitty to eat it. I used it for two kittens with coccidia this past summer, but I just bought size 3 capsules, which take about 250mg, and mixed S. boulardii 50/50 with Natural Factors double-strength acidophilus+bifidus to get the right CFU in the capsules (for the kittens, I was aiming for 1.25 billion CFU of S. boulardii in each capsule, capsule to be given 2x a day). For adults, the dose is 2.5 billion CFU 2x a day. But I just made my own capsules and the kittens were pilled rather than trying to get them to eat the stuff.

Oh - here's the thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/259985/trouble-in-raw-paradise-clostridium-perfringens-and-my-cats

That said, you can consider using the brand I use now. I buy Nutricology S. boulardii. It has no growth medium (the MOS), and apparently that is what made it bitter. This I can sprinkle on the food. As a supplement, I use 1/4 capsule 2x a day for all the cats (it is 5 billion CFU per capsule). To treat coccidia, C. diff or C. perf, the dose is double that for an adult cat. I don't know how old or large your kitty is. I don't know that it will be as effective as the S. boulardii+MOS, because I haven't used it to TREAT; but I have no reason to think it wouldn't be as effective.

So these can be used in addition to the stuff the vet prescribed.

As to the coronavirus, almost all cats have it. To help your kitty's immune system, which is somewhat under attack right at the moment, you can also use bovine lactoferrin. The dose for an adult is 250mg split into two doses of 125mg 2x a day (AM and PM). I buy the Jarrow lactoferrin (I confirmed with the company that it is bovine lactoferrin). For my immune compromised cats (a cancer survivor, an FIV+ kitty, and two herpes kitties) I use it daily. For the rest of the cats, I use it two weeks on / two weeks off.

I buy all this stuff from Amazon. I don't know where you're located, but if you have access to Natural Factors, you can probably find these other things.

And if you're thinking IBD, all of these things are appropriate. Just introduce them slowly. You might also want to read through http://www.IBDkitties.net. If you're on FB, there is an affiliated group.

Thank you SO much for your reply, LDG. I am going over to the other thread after I type this up, but let me see if I'm on the same page as you.

Should I take her OFF of the Natural Factors probiotic and put her on the yeast-based one (Is this it?) INSTEAD while she is on the metro, or should I keep her on the yeast-based one forever? OR, keep them BOTH?

Oh wait. As I'm reading down through your thread, it looks like you did both. Right now, we're sprinkling the Natural Factors on her food, and she's eating it just fine. Hopefully we can add some of the other to it...

Would you go with the one you use now or the Jarrow? I don't know what the growth medium DOES, so I don't know if it's needed for her. Can you expand on that? I'm sorry--I'm really trying to sift through buckets of info here, and get down to a "order this, do this, report back" list for me.

As for the supplement for their immune system, all of our cats are on L-Lysine, since my other cat was diagnosed with calici. Would that be appropriate? Or switch her to the supplement you suggest?

And all of these things are ok with the meds she will be on?

Yes, give her both the Natural Factors and the S. boulardii. The Natural Factors is supportive to her GI system anyway: the S. boulardii will specifically target "space" the clostridium uses, causing it to die off.

As Lola is on antibiotics, I'd use the Nutricology S. boulardii. This will be much easier to get into her (hopefully!), as you *should* just be able to mix it into her food. It seems the growth medium (the MOS) is what's bitter.

So for the "order this" and "do this," order the Nutricology S. boulardii and just add it to what you're already giving her. Give her 1/2 capsule 2 times a day for a month. After that, you can give her 1/4 capsule 2x a day.

Re: the L-lysine vs. Jarrow Lactoferrin, you might want to read this: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/267703/stubborn-herpes-infection-add-lactoferrin-in-addition-to-lysine and this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12703869

In the "Cessation of feline calicivirus shedding" study, the lactoferrin was applied directly to calici-related lesions, as the study was in a cat affected with calici that had stomatitis.

But basically, as explained in the site where I "discovered" the supplement, the bovine lactoferrin is an important part of the immune system found in milk, saliva, tears, and intestinal and respiratory secretions. It has a particular affinity for lymphatic and mucosal tissue, where it plays an important role in protection from a number of bacterial, viral, parasitic, and cancerous diseases. Lactoferrin works, in part, by stimulating the epithelial and lymphoid tissue in the intestines to release anti-inflammatory signalling proteins ("cytokines") that travel throughout the body. The anti-inflammatory action is related to lactoferrin's ability to inhibit a number of signaling proteins that normally direct the immune system to react in an inflammatory way. The site states,

What kinds of specific problems might lactoferrin be of benefit for? In several studies, direct application of lactoferrin to oral tissue of cats lessened the effects of stomatitis [7][14], although it can also be added to food. Additionally, native lactoferrin is produced by probiotics, and it is reasonable to suppose that supplementation has some beneficial activity for inflammatory conditions of the gut [8]. It gets better. Bovine Lactoferrin has also been shown effective against bacterial infections and parasites such as toxoplasmosis , in part through its ability to deprive pathogens of the iron they need in order to replicate [11] and in part through its ability to bind lipopolysaccharides (LPS) in the cell membranes of gram-negative bacteria [16]. It is also active against a number of viruses. The antiviral function of lactoferrin, originally attributed to its iron deprivation capability, may be due to a specific binding to heparin sulfate, a necessary constituent of cell-membrane receptors used by some enveloped viruses [15]. “The greater inhibitory activity of iron-saturated forms may be due to an increased affinity for viral cell receptors as result of the conformational changes induced after iron-binding” [18]. In discrete studies, lactoferrin has been shown to inhibit replication of both feline herpes virus [9] and calici virus[10]; in a small in vivo study, its sister transferrin, ovotransferrin, which has a biochemical action very similar to lactoferrin's, has shown an ability to both prevent and cure feline upper respiratory infections in FIV+ cats [14]. Finally, lactoferrin has shown an ability to inhibit metastisis of a variety of forms of cancer [12].

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http://www.fivtherapy.com/lactoferrin.htm (if you want to see the reference list).

So while you can give Lola the L-lysine, I would also give her the Jarrow lactoferrin. 1/2 capsule 2x a day.

Ok, I think I got it. I'm ordering both of those on Amazon prime, and I'll add it to what we're already doing for her right now (L-Lysine, Natural Factors, two meds). Hopefully it will be here in time to try it Tuesday evening.

We started her meds last night. No problems. I THOUGHT I might have seen some improvement last night after the dose and this morning, and then an hour after we dosed her this morning, she puked so hard she pooped her pants. 

I hope this is an isolated thing (she did it once on the first day of medicine the last round we tried), and I can't really count this as a pooping accident, as she pooped because she threw up. The vomit was mostly food, so I'm guessing she just ate too much and ran around like a crazy person. I'm trying not to be TOO concerned about this unless it happens again. She's playing and cleaning herself, sitting on top of the scratching post, so I don't think she's too concerned herself.

Yes, behavior is really important in helping decide how much of a problem there really is!

!!!

Thanks for sticking with this thread. I just alternate between feeling punished for doing a good deed (adopting her) and just wanting to cry for all sorts of reasons...like...We're trying to get pregnant--should I really be cleaning up this much cat poop? Then I feel bad for feeling negative feelings towards HER, since she's a really sweet cat, but I really think we'll see her personality even moreso once we can get her feeling good--when I'm not feeling good, I'm not very nice, so just imagine what kind of sweetie she could be if she would be 100%? Then I feel nervous I've exposed my other cats to something (even though I know we probably didn't. 

The one thing is on backorder and probably won't get here for a week, but I can at least start with the other. I think the Nutricology Saccharomyces Boulardii, Vegicaps, 50-Count  is the one that is on backorder.

Yes, sick kitties can be very stressful and SO frustrating - especially when there's lots of poop and/or pee and/or vomit to clean up. I'm sure the antibiotics will start helping her soon - and the other supportive therapy will hopefully keep her at 100%! You'll look back soon, and be happy you stuck with her, I'm sure. :heart2:

I just wanted to write in and say that I use Thorne Research S. Boulardii (they call it "Sacro-B"). It's more expensive, but has 5 billion CFUs per capsule. I stretch it by only giving a half a capsule per day divided between AM and PM as best as possible. But I would definitely take LDG's advice for whatever amount is needed to get the clostridium under control. I wanted something without any fillers for my pancreatitis/IBD kitty. It has just S. Boulardii (nothing else) and whatever the capsule is made out of, but I don't use that anyway. I'm not sure of its palatability. I divide the capsule and put it in Sebastian's gel caps with his other meds.

Lots of vibes for Lola! 

@LDG, when I was doing research on S. Boulardii brands, I found that Nutricology says there are 9 billion CFUs in three capsules, which would be 3 billion CFUs per capsule. This is the page on their website (maybe it's wrong): http://www.nutricology.com/Saccharomyces-boulardii-50-Vegetarian-Caps-p-16573.html   

Oh THANK YOU for catching that, GoHolistic! I'm mixing up the Nutricology and the one I used to use, the Nexabiotic. I went with the Nutricology because it has the smaller amount of CFU in the capsules (and is nothing but just S. boulardii), making it easier to split between the cats in the dose I wanted to use. I'm giving themroughly half the "cure coccidia and clostridium" dose, 1/2 capsule of just 3 billion CFU two times a day (so total 3 billion CFU daily).

IMO, maintenance daily dose should be *around* 2.5 billion CFU split into half: but the dose needed to FIX coccidia or clostridium is 5 billion CFU daily (split into two).

I'm so sorry about that Domino. Can you cancel the order since it was on backorder? It might be easier to order the one GoHolistic uses, as then it's just 1/2 capsule 2x a day. If you use the Nutricology, you'd basically need to give one whole capsule twice a day (though they aren't very large - they're half the size of the Jarrow with the MOS).

LDG said:

Oh THANK YOU for catching that, GoHolistic! I'm mixing up the Nutricology and the one I used to use, the Nexabiotic. I went with the Nutricology because it has the smaller amount of CFU in the capsules (and is nothing but just S. boulardii), making it easier to split between the cats in the dose I wanted to use. I'm giving themroughly half the "cure coccidia and clostridium" dose, 1/2 capsule of just 3 billion CFU two times a day (so total 3 billion CFU daily).

IMO, maintenance daily dose should be *around* 2.5 billion CFU split into half: but the dose needed to FIX coccidia or clostridium is 5 billion CFU daily (split into two).

I'm so sorry about that Domino. Can you cancel the order since it was on backorder? It might be easier to order the one GoHolistic uses, as then it's just 1/2 capsule 2x a day. If you use the Nutricology, you'd basically need to give one whole capsule twice a day (though they aren't very large - they're half the size of the Jarrow with the MOS).

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Ok. Here's what's happening. I'm going to start a new thread but I wanted to update in here first.

In addition to everything I mentioned I'm doing (L-Lysine, Diarsonyl, Metro), I switched to a refrigerated natural food I found at the grocery store two days ago.

Now, Lola throws up everything so hard she poops. Additionally, my other cat started throwing up. I read that some cats can't handle food from the fridge, and I know some cats can't handle a switch in food like that, so I'm hoping that's why Rosalita also was throwing up, but I'm going to switch back to canned. Lola showed zero improvement no matter what food she was on--cheap or amazingly expensive. I DO want to try homecooked, but we won't have a kitchen for at least another week and a half to give it a solid try. My husband said he'd stand outside and cook the chicken on the grill to try a chicken/rice combo for a few days for her, but it's -9 here. I can't see doing that.

Now, about the above recommendations. I added 1/2 cap of Lactoferrin. She puked. I was afraid to give her the other half cap this morning. I'm not sure if I'll continue it. She's just on SO MUCH. I don't know what to do. The Nutricology hasn't arrived yet, but should tomorrow or the next day.

I did find this, though: http://www.naturalcatcareblog.com/2...wing-up-healed-in-one-month-not-just-by-food/

I KNOW it sounds like an infomercial, but they have a moneyback guarantee, and I really can't do this anymore. I have a VERY important job interview today and I was up all night sobbing. I literally got about 2 hours of sleep in between vomiting and pooping cats, and me crying because I don't know how we can live like this. I'd never give her up, and I'd never have her put down, but what do we do? Just limit her to the hardwood areas? The idea of all the other cats cuddling in the bed at night without her is too much. She's a lovely little girl. She doesn't deserve this, but neither do we, and right now, I'm not thinking clearly (job distress, family distress, kitchen remodel, seasonal mood disorder, anxiety that is untreated because we are trying to get pregnant, so I can't take anything). Can anyone talk me through this?

The diarrhea is one thing, but I'm also concerned about her vomiting. Did you switch the food cold turkey? A dramatic change can cause gastro upset. Really, though, if clostridium is the culprit here, I'm not sure how much a diet change is going to help until that gets under control, and I hope the S. Boulardii does the trick. 

People have had great experiences with Vitality Science products, so it's definitely worth a shot. I was looking into their products at some point. Apparently, if you call, someone will guide you on what to use, how much, etc.

I'm sorry these cats are pushing you to your limits.    I've been there. Hang in there, and press on.     Follow @LDG's advice with the S. Boulardii. Since the Nutricology is 3 billion CFUs per capsule, you'll need to give one capsule in the AM and one in the PM (I think using 6 billion per day would be okay, but LDG can correct me on this).

OK, I just need to say this because at a quick glance, I didn't see where it was mentioned.  You are spacing out the antibiotics and the probiotics, aren't you?  Giving the probiotics in the am and pm and the ANTIbiotics at mid day or something like that?  You can't give them at the same time or they don't work as well.  They kind of off-set each other

Exactly WHAT is this new food from the refrigerated section of the Grocery Store?  I've seen some that sounds similar at Petco, but not at a grocery store. 

And, I do agree that Vitality Science has some interesting stuff.  This sounds amazing.  Have you discussed with your Vet just to get their take on it?

On an aside, how'd your job interview go?  (Maybe that was in your other thread?)

mrsgreenjeens said:

 
OK, I just need to say this because at a quick glance, I didn't see where it was mentioned.  You are spacing out the antibiotics and the probiotics, aren't you?  Giving the probiotics in the am and pm and the ANTIbiotics at mid day or something like that?  You can't give them at the same time or they don't work as well.  They kind of off-set each other

Exactly WHAT is this new food from the refrigerated section of the Grocery Store?  I've seen some that sounds similar at Petco, but not at a grocery store. 

And, I do agree that Vitality Science has some interesting stuff.  This sounds amazing.  Have you discussed with your Vet just to get their take on it?

On an aside, how'd your job interview go?  (Maybe that was in your other thread?)

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We are spacing out...sort of. The antibiotics are morning and night. The probiotics are at night. We can't really do it any other way because we work. We did start giving the medicine about 2 hours before the probiotic. That's about the best we can space it out, unfortunately. :\

I'm not sure, I'd have to look when I get home for the name. It was the ONLY refrigerated food there for cats. The rest was dogs. But, regardless, I'm going back to the canned, since I think it's upsetting the other cat's belly at this point.

I'm going to print out the Vitality Science sheet and take it to the vet when we go. I have to call her Friday after no change on the metro. I'll mention it to her, and ask her for an email to email it to her (I emailed it straight to the main email for the animal hospital, so I'm not sure she'll get it). Although, on Friday, she may not want to see Lola again, she may just go ahead and refer her straight to the specialist. I want to hurry and order it. But. I also want to talk to a vet first, and it could be weeks before we get into a specialist. I have no idea.

The interview is from 6:30 tonight until 8. I'm so fried right now. I keep debating just canceling. I'll look so tired and uninterested. I don't know whether I should start the interview with an apology that I look so tired and explain or just hope they don't notice.

Yes, preferably, the acidophilus and bifidus should be given 2-3 hours after the antibiotic. Your situation is exactly like mine. I can only give Sebastian's probiotic at night right before bed...basically 3 hours after he's had the metro with dinner. I can't do this in the morning because I have to leave for work. It's the best I can do, as well!

According to LDG, S. Boulardii is a yeast and does not get destroyed by antibiotics, so you can give this whenever, but spaced as evenly as possible (same time morning and night). I can't find a reference for this, however.

Good luck at the interview!

Have you tried adding additional fiber to the diet?  We had a couple of patients with chronic diarrhea and that seems to help.  One adds Psyllium to her kitties food, another gives her cat canned pumpkin every day  Have you tried SEB (Slippery Elm Bark)?  I have heard it helps with Diarrhea as well.

Oh I hope the interview went well! :cross:

Poor babies..... It seems there's been a lot of food switching. What you may want to do for a week or so is just let her stomach settle with a bland diet. This would be just plain chicken baby food. I use Beech Nut, because it has no corn starch. It's not balanced, so can't be used long term. But with the vomiting, she's not getting much in the way of nutrition right now as it is.

Some kitties need an 80/20 mix of chicken/soft-cooked-white-rice; she may even need 50/50. The rice would help slow down her digestion.... but, alternatively, if she has a grain sensitivity, the rice may just cause internal inflammation. It's just hard to know, so best to start with plain chicken for a few days, and see what happens. In your shoes, this is what I would do.

And is she receiving L-lysine? Because when we rescued Chumley, Lysine made his diarrhea go from bad to explosive. So I don't remember what all she's on right at the moment, but the course of metro is usually rather short.

So you might want to put her on just baby food and probiotics.

Of course, the slippery elm bark powder is very healing, very soothing to an inflamed GI system. http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/

As to the S. boulardii, it is used in conjunction with antibiotics, actually:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15740542

http://www.healthline.com/natstandardcontent/saccharomyces-boulardii

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296087/

At some point, I should probably just start a thread on S. boulardii.