Pregnant Stray - Need some advice.

When my grandma found a pregnant stray she seemed to be in "active labor" for about 2 days. Just seemed in distress , paced around, plopping her bottom on the floor, panting. Then at the end of day two she let out a howl and one was coming out. We very gently moved her to the box which was only a foot or two away and she gave birth to 5 kittens in about an hour and a half. Not sure if all that is normal but that's what happened to me and my grandma a few years ago. Hope everything goes smoothly :-)

Another 2 days now, and updates or changes? Or the waiting game still?

The anticipation is a killer huh?!  

catwoman707 said:

 
Another 2 days now, and updates or changes? Or the waiting game still?

The anticipation is a killer huh?!  

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Still waiting! Mama is getting bigger each day, and her kittens seem to have dropped down to her belly. She was very vocal last night about being petted, but insists on sleeping and cuddling in bed with us at night. 

She has been moving more slowly and is staying in one spot for long periods of time, (frequently on her side) but has been really rummaging around in her nest and staying in there more today. She is still going through about 3/4 cans of the larger cans of wet food a day and nibbles on dry food throughout the day. And we've been trying our best to get the highest quality food we can  

She is keeping us guessing! Haha

Thanks for the positive vibes guys

How long after she has her babies will I be able to spay her?

Despite the fact that she is able to get pregnant shortly after giving birth, I would plan to keep her indoors away from any potential suitors, so to speak Once the kittens are fully eating on their own they must be seperated to allow time for mom to dry up a bit, 10 days to 2 weeks is sufficient for this.

Kittens will be weaned by 8 weeks or so, sometimes depending on the situation and if the kits are big and doing well, eating lots, etc I will seperate sooner, about 7 weeks.

I sort of judge by mom too, you will notice beginning about 4 weeks old that mom will tire of nursing, she will do her duty but then get up and move away from them. Their teeth get painful, and her instincts tell her when they don't need her milk as before, more and more she will go away from them, the opposite of what you will see when they are first born, she will be extremely attentive.

Thanks so much. I will be following your advice. Do you have any idea what her behavior means? Most websites are saying they nest UP TO 3 days etc so I am not sure what to expect.

Well.......the darn thing is, while 3 days might be average, I've had cats nest for 2 days, 5 days, a week, and over. I had a cat that was madly nesting, preparing for her big day, primping and busy getting ready for motherhood, and didn't finally stop until the night before she had them which was about 2 weeks later!

Sooo, hard to really tell, but she is surely nesting.

catwoman707 said:

 
By the way, if during her delivery you really need some help or advice fast, let us know here but mention specific names like mine or StefanZ's, so we will get an email telling us we were mentioned, which will alert us faster if we are not here at the time.

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The trick seems to be, to set a @ immediately before our nicks, like @StefanZ or @Catwoman707.

If mentioned in this way in the text, we do get noticed via our usual e-mail.

The vet told us we could spay our mama stray after she stopped nursing, but she might go into heat immediately after that.
She nursed and nursed and showed no sign of stopping.
She went in to heat still nursing.
The kittens were old enough, so the vet had us separate them for 2 weeks so she could dry up.
She was spayed and we kept her apart from the kittens another 2 weeks so she could heal.
As soon as we let them back together, she laid down and they started nursing again!
She didn't discourage them in any way; she was perfectly happy. The vet said it was ok.
I don't remember how long it was till they stopped, but she nursed a crazy long time.

When my Brother in law was a kid, his cat climbed in his lap in the middle of the day and started having her kittens. She wasn't interested in the nice bed they had prepared.

Hi guys! Small update on mama cat.

Not much has changed but the hardness in her belly has moved downward quite a bit! I was also able to pick up some petroleum jelly so I could take her temperature. It was 99.8. 

She has been fussier when we touch her belly as well.

I will upload some pictures I took soon.

Okay, gotta stick in my two cents.  I seem to have a bit difference approach to this kind of situation than most in some areas, and some might disagree with my methods.  But I've fostered a number of queens from before they gave birth to the time the kittens were ready to be adopted, and have learned a few things along the way and will share them for what it's worth.  Take what you want and leave the rest.

First and foremost you need to remember, these are her kittens, not yours.  Try to respect that.

For example.  You know she is pregnant.  You have made every preparation for it.  There is nothing else you can do but wait.  So why do you need to know when she will give birth?  That's for you, not for her.  You've gone so far as to stick thermometers up her to take her temperature.  Stop taking her temperature.  Leave her alone and let nature take it's course.  Just watch from the wings carefully to make sure there are no complications.

Especially since this is a stray who doesn't know you all that well.  If cats feel threatened in any way or they feel their kittens are threatened in any way, they could even go so far as to kill them.  Sticking thermometers up her and touching her belly and fussing all over her is not a good thing to do.  You can see she's not responding well to it.

Remember, cats have been doing this for nigh on thousands of years, and quite successfully, at that.  It's one of the reasons there are so many of them.  They're good at reproducing.  I will only interfere if I believe there is really a problem, and that doesn't happen all that often.  I think people new to the experience, when given advice to prepare for problems that might arise, think that the possibility of something happening is more common than it is.   I get afraid sometimes that people will jump in way before they need to. 

Whenever I'm asked advice as to what to do in the case of a pregnant queen or a queen with newborns, my first and best advice is always, "Be the grandmother, not the mother."  (Or father as the case may be).  Enjoy the pregnancy with her, but don't stick your nose, or fingers, or everything into everything of hers.  And when the kittens are born, again, the same advice goes.  Enjoy them, love them, spoil them, play with them, but don't interfere.  Let her do her mother thing.  You don't want to risk her either hurting the kittens or just not bothering to care for them because you are doing it.  Only interfere if you find there is a real problem.

I do believe in handling the kittens early on if Mom is comfortable with it and lets you.  But when you do, sit on the floor with her (or even better, lay on the floor).  Pet them, roll them around, tickle them, let them grab your fingers, let them get used to the scent and feel of humans.  But leave them with her.  When I have newborns, I usually line the box with soft towels and then a few paper towels on top of that, and only change the paper towels when I see Mom leave the box to eat or use the litter box.  And I do it quickly.  I roll the kittens over when I play with them to make sure they are gaining weight and have nice, round bellies from enough milk.  I do not take them out and away from Mom unless absolutely necessary.

I also don't believe in weighing them unless for some reason the vet tells you to or there is a specific reason (you wanting to know how much they weigh is not a reason).  It scares them and it scares the Mom, especially if they cry.  You can tell if they are gaining weight by looking at them.

Be honest about whether you are fussing with her for yourself or for her.  If it's for you, like if you just are impatient and need to know, then stop.  I don't see any reason why you are putting her through taking her temperature so much. 

You know, she could even be trying to keep from giving birth because of all this.  She needs to feel safe.  Let her do it and make most of her decisions.  You'll be glad you did that eventually. 

Again, be the grandma, not the mother.  Respect her role. 

And fuss from a reasonable distance.  Give her her space.

Good luck.

One more thing ...

Don't take them away from Momma until they are a minimum of 8 weeks old, whether they are nursing or not.  Nine or ten is even better.

You can get her spayed at that point at any time really, just make sure, as someone else said, you don't let her out so she can get pregnant again.

Hi, thanks for your advice. I have been VERY careful about giving her space and don't want you to get the wrong impression. She has been fine with me taking her temperature on occasion so I see no problem..she just pays attention to her food. As for touching her belly, she is constantly by my side and wants attention and will roll on her back TO be petted, but since her behavior has changed, I try to give her space accordingly. 

I understand that you only have the information I have provided on the forum, but I wouldn't distress her like you seem to think she is. 

Thanks for the advice on the kittens as well! Some very good info. 

She has just been laying in bed with me the past few days. Cant blame her

As far as the temperature goes, cats tend to not show discomfort.  You don't know she's okay with it.  Just because she is not fighting you doesn't mean it's  not stressing her out.  Why take the chance if it's not necessary?  Cats don't like things shoved up them.  Neither do we.  We may not complain if a doctor does it, but it isn't pleasant.  If there is no reason to take her temperature, I don't understand why you would continue doing it.

Give her all the love and attention she craves.  Nothing wrong with that.  But that's different than feeling and squeezing and sticking and measuring, etc., etc.  I had cared for one cat that was with me only 3 days before she gave birth.  She would not leave my side.  When it was time, I couldn't even leave her alone.   She would follow me everywhere.  She wouldn't use the box I made for her; she wanted to give birth on my sofa.  So I slid a towel under her, put the box I had prepared for her on the floor, sat down on the floor near her, and waited with her.  I talked to her, I pet her head, I watched carefully to make sure all went well.  I didn't interfere.  The only thing I did was when she was finished, I put all the kittens in the box and she followed in.  I left her to care for them a few hours, then slid the box, with them in it, into the safe alcove I had ready for her.

And believe me, it wasn't easy, because they are so freakin' cute and it's so tempting to want to play with them. 

I lay on the floor and watched for quite a long time, and began to realize one of the kittens wasn't nursing.  That's when I got involved.  I went to the web, did some research, and found out that occasionally a kitten is born without their mouth completely opening, and that often using something blunt to pry it open could help break the suction.  I used the end of an ivory chopstick, heard the suction of air which the article said would happen, put her back on Momma, she started nursing, and everything was fine from that moment on.

I made a mistake with her too.  Whenever I don't follow my own rules, I am invariably reminded why I made the rules in the first place.  After a couple of weeks with this same cat, for some reason, I felt she wasn't stimulating the kittens enough.  So I decided to be helpful and figured I'd help them pee a little here and there to help her out.  Sure enough, she stopped doing it.  Why should she if I was stupid enough to?  LOL   When I realized my mistake, I stopped doing it.  I instead began to put the kittens' bottoms near her face, and she'd reluctantly take care of them.  I only had to do that about 24 hours or so, and she took her old job back.']

So there are reasons I'm suggesting these things. 

In the times I've been lucky enough to have this experience, there have been lots of times I've had to remind myself that I have to do what is best for them, not necessarily what I would enjoy doing.  I have a Mom and 4 kittens in the house at the moment.  I want so much to hold and play with those kittens.  They even are trying to get to me.  It is not easy to resist. But the mother is aggressive and very protective and gets so upset when anyone is around that I could be risking the kittens' lives. 

Are there ways around it?  Sure.  I could take them out of the room, but again, I don't know how much that would upset Mom even not seeing them.

I know she's a cat, and you're a human being, but think about how you would feel if you were pregnant and someone did to you the things you are doing to her.  Would you want someone taking your temperature over and over because they were impatient? 

A last point ... don't forgot she's raging with hormones right now.  Once she does give birth, she might not be as comfortable with you as she is now (then again she might -- you don't know).   But better to make her environment as calm and safe and unobtrusive as possible just in case than cause any stress.

Again, you won't always be able to see if she's stressed or not.  Especially now when she's got raging hormones and is focused on her litter.

Please, do what you need to for her sake, not just because you feel better doing it.

PS:  they do seem to know the difference between when I just pet them and I am feeling around their stomachs.  Even that should be done as minimally as possible.  you can't know what she's experiencing.

@deborahlee, your advice and how you handle things shows you do have experience with pregos and then moms and kittens, but you know all the things that can go wrong, and especially with young, inexperienced moms.

We are advising to the op some basics on what can possibly need her assistance. She is a first time mom to a mom-to-be, and is nervous and wanting to be prepared and ready for those 'what if's'.

When this cat decides it's time to deliver, and it's the middle of the night or early am, and she is pushing and pushing and hours go by but no baby, she needs to know this is not good and she needs help.

Or if she pushes one of the babies out and let's it lay there, sac untouched and getting cold, she needs to be prepared to tear it open, putting it up to moms face to prompt her to take over.

Things like this are very real. How many times have you seen an intact sac laying there that is cold and obviously has a baby inside that died? I have, back in my early days of rescue when I didn't know alot about signs when it looks like delivering is coming, and it's a tragedy for a fully developed baby to die that way.

I have had more pregos and moms with newborns than I could possibly count, my last momma nested for 2 weeks long, suddenly had the babies but had 7, the last 3 she was too exhausted to do anything with besides pop them out. If I hadn't been there to tear those bags and get mom to finish the job on one, he would have died.

Or the next 2 that she wouldn't do anything at all for, so I tore open the bags and rubbed and rubbed and got them stimulated and breathing.

I didn't see where anyone was advising her to be weighing the kittens daily and all that. That is needed mostly when one or more are underweight or weaker, small, runts, or are not nursing properly or growing well. But we don't have the kittens here yet to have given that advice.

I don't think your approach is wrong at all, I think you are probably an excellent, knowledgable foster, which is awesome. But it doesn't look like anyone here is advising her to interfere with the natural process at all.

As for taking her temp, granted I wouldn't advise doing this constantly but don't think once or twice is really gonna hurt anything.

Sorry, I had to jump in here after seeing your posts, it kinda sounded like you were scolding her, and I don't want her to be upset or worry that she might be overthinking or overdoing it.

She simply is trying to get some knowledge about what's to come )

It's probably the dreaded anticipation that gets her!

StefanZ, you are right! (as always In order for her to let us know via email if she needs our help is if she quotes one of our posts or puts the @ in front of our name.

So glad you mentioned this, and once you said that about Anne, I think maybe that is what I thought as well.

Thanks!!

Steve, no need to be sorry, I always appreciate the discourse and I would be doing my fosters a disservice if I thought I knew everything and wasn't willing to listen to others and learn .  It's why I post questions here as well as answers.

I actually do agree with everything you've said, except one.

And I might have gotten a bit scolding, and my apologies, but that was in response to the statement that the cat didn't mind the thermometer.

The weighing thing was for after the kittens were born; it's something I've seen most inexperienced people do, especially those who tend to be overinvolved, and I was trying to bring home my point of being a grandma, not a mother.

I agree 100% with all the things that could possibly go wrong, and that one needs to be prepared for it.  There should be a list of people who are experienced they could call (in fact, I'd recommend contacting local rescues and seeing if anyone would be willing to be on call to actually come over if there was a problem), the number of an emergency vet at hand as well.  And an idea of what could go wrong.

The reason I didn't include those things was because it was already shared and I would just be repeating it.  I shared new stuff.

But I think many people forget the importance of the emotional environment as well, and I'm sure you've heard stories of cats killing their kittens because they didn't feel safe, and often with well-meaning people with children and other pets they've lived with for years giving them lots of love.  Having kittens changes a cat.  And this is a cat who's only been with this family for a few days.  Stress can cause serious problems as well, including the cat trying to not give birth until it feels safe.  Most people don't include that in the advice about the physical issues.

I do disagree, however, about taking the temperature.  There is absolutely no reason for it unless there is a medical reason.  This wasn't petting it or holding it.  This was sticking things up it's butt, and more than just a few times.  Think about how you feel when that is done to you.  It is intrusive and can stress out an animal.  Would you want a doctor doing that to you once in a while for no reason other than it makes them feel like doctors?  You don't want to do that during a time she is stressed out enough and needs not to be.  Even a few times.   I take this seriously, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't believe it's right to "play doctor" with another life because of one's own agenda.  That's part of what I meant by respecting her role as the mother. 

I was hoping to get across the message of not being intrusive, with this or the weighing, or involvement like that in general.

The less stressed out the mother is, it lessens the chance something could go wrong.  I've also had to help cats who became so exhausted during birth they needed a little pull and help cleaning.   The numbers that should be gathered are not temperatures, but how many hours one should wait before realizing there is a problem if there are still kittens to be born and one hasn't come in a while.  That's where the focus should be, not worrying when they'll come by taking their temperature over and over.  That's what I meant by preparing.

There are so many ways to enjoy this experience.  I love doing it and it's why I specialize in this when I foster.  It's very rare that aren't kittens running around this house ... there are 9 at the moment of varying ages (plus some adults cats for the kittens to annoy). 

But too many times, especially when people are new to it (and I include myself in that as well -- I had to learn lessons along the way), they do feel the cats can't do it without them, and more times than not, that is not the case.  I did say in my post a few times it was important to stay close and watch carefully and prepare in case something does go wrong.

The important thing is, when Mommy is ready, to get these little ones into the world in the easiest, safest and least stressful way, so they grow up to be happy,healthy, strong, playful, NEUTERED kitties to bring more joy to this world!

One last thing ... I in no way felt anyone here was advising her to interfere in the natural process.  I did feel that in some ways she was doing that herself, a normal, common thing for people new to the experience, so wanted to share my take on it.

deborahlee said:

 
The weighing thing was for after the kittens were born; it's something I've seen most inexperienced people do, especially those who tend to be overinvolved, and I was trying to bring home my point of being a grandma, not a mother.

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Yes, that IS a major point with weighting every day. YOU are very experienced and see almost everything by a glance, and perhaps also by some rolling around with your hand.   So it may be OK for YOU not to weigh them every day.

For a inexperienced, it is important to get safe knowledge, and to get a reliable starting point.  Else, when you begin to suspect there are perhaps problems, you will dearly wish you had this reference point...

Of course, the weighing must be done with good planning and respectful to mom.

I must stress, the weighting is thus one of our / mine standard recommendations, -  unless the mom is very clearly high stressed by this.

If you manage to weigh them and measure in some other way - fine, as long as you do it.  I wll be happy me too.   

Othewise,  I think you had here two great posts, and many insightful observations to learn from for us all.   Posts well worh of purrpoints, save this with  taking weigh every day.

This with measuring the temp, we arent fond of it either.  My personal recommendation is, if you really want to do it, use such a modern ear termometer, or measure it in the foreleg armhole [edit:  armpit is the usual word] - you can always pretend its just a new, fun play.  (its about 3 F degrees lower in there, or one Celsius ).

[edit.  Although, if the cat is not stressed by measuring in the butt, had perhaps done it before without any problems - so It can surely be done this way.  This is after all the official recommendation.

Food oil,  warmed up butter, Vaseline or petroleum jelly as OT had is highly recommended, and also warm up the termometer in your hand. so it feels more neutral - your hand has lower temp  than even a somewhat chilled down cat]

As I remember it, I saw Catwoman did strongly adviced against measuring in the behind of the high preg, when the question was up not so far ago:  "why stress the mom?   They will come when they come anyway, so unless not forced by dire needs, dont do it" - something like that.

Welcome to our Forum!   I hope dearly you will continue to participate and help out.....  

Good luck!

Glad I'm not alone in some of what I believe, and thank you for responding.

And I did say way back at the beginning to take what one wants and leave the rest, but I do tend to sound quite opinionate, I know that.

I just wanted to add that I am taking into consideration how it was when I first started doing this as well.  And also to say I do weigh if needed. I feel lucky to have had a very experienced and knowledgable contact at a rescuer help and teach me the first and subsequent times I was able to do this.

One of 4 kittens I have now was extremely tiny, much smaller than her siblings, and not developing evenly at that.  It was suspected that the mother was not able to feed them.  I weighed those kittens, and then again 2 days later after I got her eating to make sure she was now producing enough milk.  Once I saw she was, and they had gained some weight, I only weighed the tiniest (now named Thumbelina) one more time and was confident she was doing fine.  She is now a little butterball, almost as big as the largest kitten in the litter. 

Again, I think it all comes down to one being honest about whether one is doing what's best for the kittens or what they want, and using common sense and moderation in all things.

A note to those who might be reading this and thinking they'd like to have the experience themselves ....

Please don't add to the population.  Contact your local rescue or shelter.  Chances are they have pregnant cats that need a foster home until they have and raise their kittens, or mother cats that just gave birth, or orphaned kittens that need bottle feeding.  You can have the fun without letting your cat get pregnant!

One bene to that is that they will help you through it in case there are any problems.

Good luck with the babies, and I would be happy to be available and help if needed as well.

I'm  broadly with DebroahLee - don't interfer.  Look after the mum and (mostly) she will look after the kittens.  I do weigh each day if it doesn't upset the mother.  I do it in front of her, very quickly, which means I'm ready with pen & paper to write the results down.  Once the kittens eyes are a couple of weeks old and their eyes are open & ears stood up I start holding them a little longer, always putting them back with mum immediately if they start to cry.  The only other thing I do actively is changing the bedding after the birth, and then as required.  The rest is providing food, giving the mother attention if she wants it, scooping the litter tray.  I've fostered several litters, I let the cat I had 20 years ago have one litter, and my pedigree breeding girl had her first litter last year.  Hopefully both she and her daughter will have a litter each this year.