Can anyone help with the name of this color?

I don't know if this is technically blue - or some dilute of brown or black. I ask, because I used to refer to Lazlo as a grey tabby - then found out he's a brown tabby, even though he looks grey to me. If I remember correctly, there is no such thing as grey?

This is Lazlo:


Who I think is a brown mackerel tabby with white patches?

And the one I'm REALLY confused about now is Smokey, one of the ferals:



THANK YOU!

If you're going by colors recognized by the various cat associations, brown is genetically black. The darkest stripes on brown tabbies generally look black and the lighter areas can be much warmer, looking brown or sometimes almost red. That does not mean they have the red gene. I agree that Lazlo is a brown mackerel tabby with white.

Blue is the dilute of black. It's the color our eyes interpret as grey. I would call Smokey a blue cat. I can see some ghost tabby markings on him, especially on his tail, but I'm not sure it's enough to make him a mackerel tabby. I also see a couple of white tufts under his chin. Is that where his fur is ruffled so you can see his undercoat, or does he have white spots there?

He has one small white dot right in the middle of his chest under his chin. That other patch on his right shoulder is where he was shaved to have an abscess treated. He's one of our now-friendly ferals.

As to Smokey, the only slightly tabby markings I've seen on him are those rings on his tail. No matter the angle, the amount of sun - I've never seen anything else, not even that "Hey, look at that!" in any pictures.

So Smokey would just be a blue domestic short hair with ... a white patch and ghost tabby markings on his tail? :lol3:

Thanks, this is so helpful!


The white spot



Oh, LOL! I guess it's more of a ... splotchy trail.

 I agree with GoldyCat.   You're right  Lazlo is Brown Mackerel Tabby and White;   (though in this photo he looks almost like Brown Ticked Tabby and White  and I've seen other angles where one could almost call him spotted.  Lazlo has a very interesting tabby pattern!    but I do think I'd call him a Mackerel Tabby.

Smokey is Blue  ( meaning blue solid  aka blue self )   but he has some ghost tabby markings showing ,  which is pretty common in blue cats, especially cats who have not been selectively bred to try to avoid it. 

TABBY & GHOST TABBY

In a way,  one could say that EVERY cat is a tabby.  Or,  to be more exact,  every cat has in their DNA a genetic code for some kind of tabby pattern.     But in cats with black-based (eumelanistic) pigment , it takes another gene, called Agouti (abbreviated with capital A)  to turn on the switch and make their tabby pattern show up distinctly  by making some of the hairs be banded with a paler color -- which makes them true tabbies.

 

  " I'm an Agouti kitty!  so I'm a true tabby!"

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  " I'm non-Agouti so my tabby pattern is hiding!  "

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  Lazlo's Agouti gene  turned on the switch to greatly increase the contrast in his tabby pattern,  so that it shows up obviously.  

Smokey,  instead of Agouti,  has 2 copies of  Non-Agouti (a/a) so he did not get that effect.

 But even without the Agouti gene's action ,  a solid color cat's tabby pattern may still sometimes show through   That's what is called  "ghost tabby" .   It seems to be more easily seen in the dilute colors and in kittens.  But even some adult cats with dense black coats, may show a faint tabby pattern when lying in bright sunlight. 

 Of course it makes a difference what kind of tabby pattern they would have had.   A mackerel tabby pattern will show up more so than homozygous ticked tabby!  

BTW in cats with red-based color , they show their tabby pattern whether or not they have the Agouti gene.

  BROWN (BLACK) TABBY

  As Goldycat explained,  the "Brown" Tabbies are really genetically Black.      (So if Lazlo did not have the Agouti gene  ,  he would be a Black & White cat.  )

But since the  agouti hairs ( the lighter parts of their tabby pattern)  (EDIT:   are often a tan /brown color), giving them a sort of general brownish look,   they have traditionally been called "Brown Tabbies".  in most of the cat associations. 

 But some of the genetically black tabbies have a more grey-ish looking 'background' color to their tabby pattern.   So it seems very confusing when someone tells you a cat like that is called a brown tabby.

 I always just tell people to go by the DARKEST markings in the tabby pattern to figure out the base color.   If the darkest  tabby stripes / spots etc. are Black,    that means the cat's base color is Black.    so that's what is called "Brown Tabby".

  At least some of the member registering bodies of FIFé  (Fédération Internationale Féline )   call it Black Tabby  --    at least I have seen that in pedigrees.  GCCF and CFA call it Brown Tabby.   Some folks in TICA would like to just change it to Black Tabby to make it less confusing.   but  they have opposition from members who like the traditional name.  So  they have compromised by using both!      They call it  "Brown (Black)" followed by the type of tabby or torbie.     You see this  in the show catalogues and on their website.   For example in this list of the 2012-2013 season Lifetime Achievement awards,  you can see things like "BROWN (BLACK) MACKEREL TABBY/WHITE HOUSEHOLD PET SH"      I think they're hoping to ease people into eventually changing over to just calling it Black.   

 The tiny white patch on his chest is called a "locket".   When the amount of white is that small,  it usually just means that during development of the embryo , as the pigment filled in , it missed that bit -- not that he has a gene for white spotting. So 2 solid blue cats could have a kitten with a white locket.

Again, thank you sooooo much. This is fascinating.

Question: is it possible for there to be a blue tabby? That would be... dilute black with the agouti gene "turned on" ? :dk: Based on Smokey's tail and Goldycat's question, I have to assume yes. ???

Another question?

So... is this kitty a blue cat with ghost tabby markings? Or a black/brown tabby? Or... ???? The brownish on the chest is what makes it confusing for me....

Apparently it's the lighting that is making those tabby markings on the chest so apparent, because it's normally not easy to see.

Oh, and while I'm asking (and thank you AGAIN for the time!), what is "ticked?" Is that broken lines in a Mackerel?

This is Lazlo from the back and side:

 This kitty is a blue tabby.    I totally get why his coat causes some confusion in a couple ways:

1. Is this pattern distinct enough that he would be a true tabby,  not a solid blue with ghost tabby pattern showing?   The answer is yes.    This is a pretty subtle tabby pattern he's got , it looks like it may be especially subtle on his sides.  But  a ghost tabby really would be even more subtle than this. (like Smokey)   But there are other clues.   He's got a typical tabby nose -- a reddish color nose leather outlined by his base color. And he's got typical tabby "eyeliner". 

2.  I also understand  the confusion about those agouti hairs with a very tan look.   This is why I tell people to look at the darkest markings to determine the base color in a tabby.      His darkest stripes are like a dark slate grey;  that = blue,  and therefore he is a blue tabby. 

  Tabbies can have a very warm color in the  "background" agouti hairs.   a tabby with black-based color ( like black or blue)  can have this brown or even reddish brown background.   ( in the blues it's usually lighter ).    It can sometimes make it easy to confuse them with a torbie ( tortoiseshell tabby) .  In this cat's case,  I could see possibly getting him mixed up with a blue-cream torbie.   but in the torbie,  the arrangement of the red-based color would not be so evenly in between the dark stripes.   

  I agree that term "brown tabby" is very confusing.   To make matters worse,  there really IS a genetic brown ( aka chocolate) . It's an alternate allele at the Black locus,  recessive to the dominant Black.  and abbreviated with a lower case b.     It's sort of a different way of the color being diluted.   It is far less common than black or blue.  

"But there are other clues.   He's got a typical tabby nose -- a reddish color nose leather outlined by his base color. And he's got typical tabby 'eyeliner'. "

Does this mean that a red tabby would have a reddish-orange hue on the skin around their eyes? And what if the red tabby has no color outline around their nose?

Maewkaew, thank you sooooooooooooooooooo much!

ETA: I expect you get tired of answering the same questions over and over, but I didn't know how to dig it out of here without knowing the right terms. So I really REALLY appreciate it!

TheMelyssaK said:

 
"But there are other clues.   He's got a typical tabby nose -- a reddish color nose leather outlined by his base color. And he's got typical tabby 'eyeliner'. "

Does this mean that a red tabby would have a reddish-orange hue on the skin around their eyes? And what if the red tabby has no color outline around their nose?

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 Well,  these things aren't always 100% .   For example I have occasionally seen brown (black)  or blue tabbies with dark noses instead of the typical  "brick red"  or salmon pink color outlined by the dark base color.

 and in a red tabby that outline would be less obvious since it would be closer in color to the color of the nose leather.  
  

Red tabbies often do seem to have their eyes outlined in the darkest red (orange) color of their coat.

But...   red tabbies aren't always Agouti.    The non- agouti mutation  that produces a solid color in a cat with  eumelanistic ( black-based)  pigment , doesn't work the same way on phaeomelanistic (red-based) pigment.  They still show a tabby pattern even if they do not have the Agouti gene.  

But there has been discussion about what differences, if any,  there ARE between red and cream (dilute of red) cats who are Agouti vs non-Agouti.     It's possible that the absence of some of those traits might mean the cat is really not Agouti.   ( but would still be called a red tabby if he shows a definite tabby pattern as nearly all red cats do. )

This link has a good discussion about Agouti  http://www.purrceptiblybsh.com/cat_colour_genetics.htm

LDG said:

Maewkaew, thank you sooooooooooooooooooo much!

ETA: I expect you get tired of answering the same questions over and over, but I didn't know how to dig it out of here without knowing the right terms. So I really REALLY appreciate it!

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  You are very welcome, Laurie!  Glad to be of help.  and I enjoy seeing the pics of such handsome cats.