Fostering two feral kittens - advice needed!

I have been fostering two feral kittens - at least I think they're feral - for about ten days.  The vet says they are about 3 months old (brother and sister).  Is it a very bad sign if they don't play and don't respond to food?  They do eat but they do it at night so I have been unable to use food as an incentive for socialization.  Babyfood on spoon or finger does not work thus far.  Play therapy (using fishing toy) does not work either.  I don't think they know how to play.  They hide all the time when I am in their room.  Sometimes they leave the food and litter untouched all day.  I've done the swaddling thing on the girl kitten and she got so scared she peed on the towel.  

Some background:  last summer, I took in two strays, 7 week old brothers, who lived with me for a few months before being adopted last month.  These guys played, ate ravenously, were curious about their surroundings and I was able to socialize them through food and play.  One of them was very shy and wouldn't let me touch him for six weeks but he wasn't hiding all the time like these new kittens are doing.  I guess if there is a spectrum of socialized/stray/feral, these new kittens would be much more on the feral side.

I know it's early days, but I'm a bit lost because they don't respond to food or play. Should I be doing more of the forced cuddling?  Should I put them in a cage?  I toyed with the idea of putting them in a cage in the main cat room (my computer room where I spend a lot of time and where my two big cats hang out) but somehow I'm thinking that wouldn't be such a good idea at this point. These poor little kittens are so stressed out.  Should I just leave them alone and sit in the room with them from time to time?  I am committed to socializing them and getting them adopted but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed.  Or maybe I should say underwhelmed at the lack of response from the kittens.  What do you do when kittens simply won't engage?

The kittens got a clean bill of health otherwise? That is alarming that they dont react to the food. It might be because they can smell the other cats in the house. Have you tried laying on the floor with them and trying to get them to eat that? You could also try bottle feeding if they arent getting any food. I know they are older but it might help them get some food into their system. Ive never experienced this kind of problem. They might just need sometime to get used to the enviornment.

Clean bill of health.  FIV and FELV negative.  Not sick, poops are normal.  They're beautiful kittens.  They are eating, they just will not do it when I'm there.  They chow down in the middle of the night, mostly.  

Mhm thats interesting that they wont eat in front of you. It might just be that they are nervous. My one feral use to never eat unless i was with her so i had the opposite of what you have. As long as theybare getting food its good. They probably just need some time to get to know you and their new enviornment. =)

Socializing after three months is going to be difficult - they "set in their feral ways," so to speak.  But it can be done.  We have two inside cats who were born feral and were brought inside at 6 months.  They are not lap cats but they like us now.  It took a long time for them to appreciate all we were doing for them.  They are six years old now and the girl has just discovered she loves being brushed, so it is never too late.

One thing I did was sit quietly in the room with them and read out loud.  It will help them get used to your voice and your presence.

I think patience is your best friend now.  Keep their routine the same, always speak softly and calmly to them and they'll come around soon.

Agreed with Ondine - I bet they just need more time.

Ondine also hinted at this above - but know that there's a generally a huge difference in the amount of time it takes to socialize a 7 week old kitten vs a 12 week old. Big big difference - but it's wonderful that you've committed to it now. Just know it could take considerably more time. I know 10 days feels like forever - and in alot of ways it is - but in the grand scheme of socialization with that age, it's not. 

I know others are big proponents of "burittoing"...but I've never had good luck with it. I've had more the scared reaction that you got. It actually set two of my last feral litter back by about a month (compared to their brother, that I never tried it with, who socialized far more quickly).

I'd try alot - alot! - of sitting/laying on the floor and reading, talking softly out loud. Do you leave a radio or tv on in the room at all times? That's helpful in getting them used to hearing human voices. 

And maybe put the baby food on top of their food in the crate (particularly if you can do that without opening the crate and scaring them)...and talk to them about how wonderful it is while you put it in there. I always try to develop a food ritual that involves me talking and presenting treats they only get when I'm around (like baby food or wet food).

Keep us posted!

Agreed all they need is some time. My feral is 2 years old and i found her about 8 months ago. She was nervous about coming into my house especially since i have 2 other female cats and a dog. Shes gotten used to the enviornment now and i take her for walks outside which she really likes. So give the little guys some time now. And thanks for helping them out! =D

I think the kitties need more time and space. They need time to trust you, they need to see that they will not be harmed by you or by anyone else in this new place they are in (put yourself in their shoes, what if a being 50 times your size would take you and put you in a strange environment and try to pet you) . I do not think that forced cuddling will do any good - I actually think it will only scare them more.

I am sure that there is a food they can not resist - maybe some raw chicken or some tuna, something that will make curiosity more important than fear. And I also think that they should be let to eat in peace - no touching during meal time, just you sitting there next to them, so they associate your presence with good food.

At the end of May I took in two 3.5 months old kittens, boy and girl, born on the street. The boy was very social even when he was on the street, but the girl... my, what a challenge that was. For about three months she hissed us every single time we tried to approach her. She did eat next to me, but the moment I tried to get closer to her or to touch her she would hide away. And hiss. 

Now she loves to be petted but only on her own terms, only when she feels like it, and boy, she can be demanding. If I want cuddles or if I need to wipe her eyes or something (they both have herpes virus) she hides under the bed. At least she doesn't hiss anymore. But she only accepts me and my bf. No matter who else comes, she stays under the bed.

She made me think at times that she was happier on the street. Now I know she finally adjusted in her own special way and is happy sharing her space with me, my bf and the other two cats.

Thank you for the advice!  Regarding the forced cuddling and burrito treatment, my instinctive reaction is that I'm not comfortable with it.  Tried it a few times but I think it just makes them more frightened.   The reason I'm a cat person  is that I let the cat take the lead.   It's always worked for me. They do let me pet them whenever I come into the room,  but they are always in their respective hiding places and they're just tolerating it!  The female cat hisses when I pet her, the male doesn't.  

I will try tuna or chicken.  I have some BFF food that I feed my two big guys - they love it and maybe the kittens will too.  I have a feeling it's going to take some time, just as everybody here has said.  I am just relieved that they are now using the litterbox because we had a few accidents the first week but that seems to be resolved thanks to Cat Attract.  

It's just kind of a bummer because I am not planning on adopting these cats, only fostering, so I kind of wanted to get them in and out within a month or two, but it looks like that will not be happening.  I got way too attached to the last two kittens I fostered and I wanted to avoid that this time,  but I guess on the bright side, there's not much danger of that happening here!  It's difficult when you get no feedback. I just sit there with my book and they hide, lol.  I don't have a radio in there but actually my husband spends a fair amount of time in the room adjacent to the kitten room and he often plays the radio so maybe that will help.   With my ex-kittens, even in the early days when they didn't want to be handled, they were fun to visit because they played together and cracked me up with their antics.  But as Ondine and Kittychick said, it's the difference between 7 weeks and 3 months.  

Sadly, it is generally a huge difference between the tiny guys and the guys your size. But with persistence (or probably more accurately, patience AND persistence) - I'm betting they  will come around eventually.

And finding a food they can't resist can be a HUGE help. We had 2 kittens that could take or leave the "kitty crack" (gerber baby food chicken) but couldn't resist the same thing in turkey flavor. And for another pair it was sliced ham. We still affectionately refer to them as our "ham babies" since the food ritual  with those guys ended up being that we'd walk into their room singsonging "we're here with ham for the ham babies" and eventually they'd actually come running when they heard that. (and when I think back to what my husband & I must have sounded like walking into a room singing about "ham babies" we laugh out loud!).

So you never know what's going to do it! I will say, if there's any way you can afford a super cheap radio, we have definitely found that having some kind of ongoing human voice makes a difference. If nothing else, I think it desensitizes them to sound. 

Keep us posted on how things progress. I'm sure I speak for all when I say they'll come around!

Brief update:  Not a whole lot of progress, but I'm encouraged by recent developments.  I have found the key to Samson's heart: chicken!   He actually eats it when I'm in the room (although he's still in his safe corner).  I also gave him some ham but he didn't seem as keen on that, possibly because it was just luncheon meet whereas the chicken was something that I'd cooked for dinner.  I'm going to keep spoiling him with food and hope for a breakthrough.  Now when I offer my hand, he actually sniffs it, but he is not yet ready to be hand-fed.  Still, this is huge. 

His sister, Delilah, is a tougher nut to crack.  She hisses when I try to pet her and is not interested in the food that I offer.  So I think Samson is going to be my first project.  My experience with my previous two foster kittens is that if one of them decides you're okay, the other one will eventually come around as well.  

I'm taking them to the vet on Wednesday for boosters and poop samples.  Hopefully, the trauma won't set them back too much!  

Keep in mind it's only been about a week!!! It took that long with our last feral kittens for 2 of them to even leave the carrier that was in the crate (they used the box and snuck food at night - but that was the only way I even knew they'd moved! And they sat with their backs to me for weeks!) So I think you're making great progress. Sniffing out of your hand - that's HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck at the vet! It may be  a little of "two steps forward three steps back, but they've started down the road already. It may be a slow journey - but they'll get there eventually!!!!
 

It's been three weeks, actually (since Nov. 22), but I take your point!  Like your ferals, my two were totally nocturnal for the first week or so  - and that has changed as well in the past couple of weeks.  

Thanks!  I'm feeling pretty optimistic right now!  

I've also found that chicken cooked with a little extra fat and broth seems like irresistible heaven for them! Even the outside ferals venture nearer for that!

This is good news - they do need a lot of patience, don't they?

One thing - I would stay away from ham (and lunch meats in general).  They're bad enough for us - worse for the kitties.

OK!  I'm sticking with the home-made chicken!  

Latest update:  I took the kittens to the vet today for shots, deworming and flea treatment.  Delilah weighs 4.5 lbs., Samson is a little bigger. The vet said that I have to separate them or they will never stop being feral.  If they have each other, she said, they will never socialize with people.  This is contrary to what I did with my former two foster kittens, but those kittens were younger and they were normal kittens, just skittish.  So now I have Samson in a large cage in the room with my big cats which is also my computer room.  He seems OK - I haven't tried to handle him yet; I figure the vet trip was enough trauma for today.  He did eat his dinner while I was in the room.  

Funny thing: one of my two big orange boys stuck his paw in Sam's cage to get some of his kitten kibble!  Talk about taking candy from a baby!  

I do have another cage but I'm not putting Delilah in one right now.  I'm just leaving her in the original "kitten room" for the time being. 

I'm just hoping that exposing Samson to regular household life and the two big cats will help the socialization process.  I spend a lot of time in here and it is Big Cat HQ so that should help.  I'm not leaving Delilah out in the cold, but I just don't think she's ready yet.  The vet said that tortie girls (Delilah's a tortie) can be tough.  Maybe she will be more responsive (and less hissy) if her brother isn't in the room.

Next vet visit will be in January, for spay/neuter.  

For me it was the exact opposite thing that work. I don't think Amelie would have ever trusted me if it weren't for her brother. She watched me and Harley interract and decided to trust me eventually. I tried separeting them but she bacame even more frightened and wouldn't come out of her safe spot. Even now, after half a year, she still relies on him for comfort.

I am sure you will find something that works for them. Just pay attention to their body language and overall behavior. Keep us posted.

I know, Irina.  That is exactly how it worked with the kittens I fostered before.  One took to me right away (well, after a week or two) but the other was extremely shy and would run away if I tried to pet him.  However, he watched his brother and followed everything his brother did from Day One.  It was really cute.  And that is why I kept Samson and Delilah together for the first four weeks, in the hopes that something like that would happen.  But my first foster kittens weren't as feral as these two are.  For instance, with these new kittens, I couldn't even get a handle on body language because when I was in the room with them, they were both hiding. I never saw them play.   Samson allows petting but struggles like crazy when you pick him up.  Delilah hisses when approached but doesn't struggle much when picked up (I think she's paralyzed with fear).  

Here's an update on my two feral kittens.  I kept them in cages for awhile in the same room with my big cats.  They definitely enjoy being around the big cats.  About two weeks ago, I decided to let them out of the cages, so now they are in the same room with the big guys.  (I let the big guys out to roam the house when they want, but Samson and Delilah are not at that stage yet).  Fortunately, the litterbox issues they exhibited in the first week are gone now.  I have two boxes in the room and they use them, no problem and no accidents.  They play like normal kittens now, which is wonderful to see.  When they were first here, all they did was hide.  They're having fun now with the kitty condo and all the toys and they get along fine with the big cats, no territory issues or anything.  

I am using a Feliway plug-in, not sure if that helps but it certainly couldn't hurt!  They have good appetites and they now know I'm the food source (whereas before they hid all the time).  It's the roast chicken that got them.  I buy a boneless breast every week and roast it for them.

They still do not like to be handled.  Samson will let me feed him by hand, come up and sniff my fingers and allow me to stroke him VERY briefly before running away.  Delilah will sniff my hand for a split second before running away.  It is going to take awhile but they are definitely becoming more socialized.  They sit on the chair next to me or jump up on the desk, etc.  

However (and there is always a however!) Delilah unexpectedly went into heat last Thursday.  The heat lasted only 3 days.  It's over now, thank heavens, and I am taking them for spay/neuter on Wednesday.  I feel bad that I didn't anticipate this (have never had an unspayed female before) and thought I'd have a month or so before I had to deal with this.  So my big challenge on Wednesday is to get them in their carrying cases for the vet.  It will be a relief to get that over with!