Distemper vaccine linked to kidney failure in cats?

ldg

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Thanks, Denice - that means a lot. It was Flint McCullough (above) who said the rabies vaccine is every year now, unless I misunderstood him? It doesn't matter though really. He said that one of them (the 3-year?) causes sarcomas. It seems a lot of vaccines are being linked to disease.
There are two types of rabies vaccination available on the market now. One is an adjuvanted vaccine, one is a non-adjuvanted vaccine

(From Wiki on adjuvants: "Immunologic adjuvants are added to vaccines to stimulate the immune system's response to the target antigen, but do not in themselves confer immunity. Adjuvants can act in various ways in presenting an antigen to the immune system. Adjuvants can act as a depot for the antigen, presenting the antigen over a long period of time, thus maximizing the immune response before the body clears the antigen. Examples of depot type adjuvants are oil emulsions. Adjuvants can also act as an irritant which causes the body to recruit and amplify its immune response.")

The adjuvanted vaccine is the old, traditional rabies vaccination, which conferred immunity for 3 years after the initial boosters. Many vets and state laws recommended an annual vaccination DESPITE the three-year activity of the vaccine. This vaccine is associated with vaccine-site sarcomas, which is why the non-adjuvanted rabies vaccine was developed.

The non-adjuvanted rabies vaccination came on the market with instructions for every-year use. But a recent study shows that it confers active immunity for at least three years! I posted that link above. ( http://winnfelinehealth.blogspot.com/2013/06/long-term-immunity-to-rabies.html )

So there is a HUGE disconnect between laws, policies (with the AAFP considering rabies to be non-core!), and what gets done. :(


Even the ones that haven't yet been may eventually be linked to some chronic or fatal disease. I'm not taking any chances, even with the rabies vaccine. I think the chances of my cats developing a sarcoma or CRF are MUCH greater than the risk of their ever contracting rabies or distemper as they are indoor-only cats. I've owned 9 cats over the years (if I didn't miss any), and two of these developed CRF and died. Others died young, so the count may have been even higher had they lived to old age. Actually, I even wonder if they died young because of some vaccine, as back then I had them vaccinated yearly. One died of fatty liver disease at the age of 2 - his skin and the whites of his eyes turned yellow. The next cat I got died of FIP at the age of 2, and he had even been vaccinated against it. His first symptom was mange, as he wasn't able to fight the microscopic mites off that all cats have. The next one I got is the cat in the picture - Kermie - and at the age of 3 he was diagnosed with CRF already. That's 3 cats in a row - I was starting to think I had some kind of curse on me. I had 2 cats die of heart attacks a year apart, and they weren't very old, probably 8. I know one had an enlarged heart at a young age already. I didn't even know cats could have heart attacks. And the cries they made? - they howled and writhed in pain, falling to the floor and flipping around until their was no life left in them. With the first one, I drove her to an emergency clinic, and she died there. The second one, I didn't even bother. It was very difficult to watch, to be so helpless to help them. It was all so sudden.
It seems I haven't had much luck with cats, so the two I have now I am going coddle. The shelter I got them from had give them some of their first vaccines while they were there. I believe I was required by them to submit proof that they had received the rest of their first vaccines, and also proof that I'd had them neutered. Aside from those vaccines, they haven't gotten any since. I feed these cats the best foods, take them to the vet when they're sick - no matter how much it costs. I give them spring water instead of tap. I give them love. I worry constantly that those few vaccines they received might eventually take their lives, but I also read that the risk of vaccine-related CRF increases with every distemper booster they receive. So I'm hoping that my decision to forego further vaccination will prevent their lives from being cut short.
Vaccines though aren't anything to be playing around with, as we don't know every detail about how the immune system will respond when a virus is artificially introduced. We think we do, but we don't. So assurances by the AMA, CDC, whoever, are not enough for me. These are viruses - live, killed, or weakened, and the immune system will launch an attack against the virus and anything foreign that might be attached to it. I really wish they would tell us what these viruses are grown in. I know one vaccine (the flu shot?) is grown in eggs, and I happen to have an egg allergy. Not a coincidence, if you ask me.

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs: As the information sheets by the AVMA and the USDA indicate, there's still a LOT of research that needs to be done.

The bottom line is that vaccinations should be based on risk-assessment. And even then, titre testing can be done, to determine if vaccinations are even necessary.
 

flintmccullough

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I am not, at all, trying to talk anybody, into vaccinating for rabies or any disease/issue. Its a personal choice, depending on ones circumstances. I am only trying to give information, so one can give an informed decision, and/or be aware of all the facts or information, and, for those that may be just reading, and are not comfortable, with joining the discussion. 


I will try and explain a little clearer, lol, but some of the terminology, escapes me. 

Rabies used to be given every 3 years.

But the rabies vaccine, was adjuvented, as in, there were preservatives in it, to increase the self life, per say.

Vets felt, that the adjuvent, the preserative, was causing sarcomas.

Vets feel, the 1 yr rabies shot, is safer, there is no adjuvent in it. 

I prefer, not to take the chance, of the adjuvent, just as others make a personal choice, about any vaccines. And, my vet will only give the 1 yr.  When the kittens were little, I talked my vet into vaccinating them for FIP, she agreed to do it as kittens, but only that time. They go to shows, they have a higher degree of exposure, so they got the initial, but I too refuse, to vaccinate them for it anymore, because they have built up their show immunity, as my vet puts it. 

I refuse to let them get the Convenia shot. Its an antibiotic shot. One shot, don't have to mess with daily pills, for kitties that don't take pills well. The prob is, there are way way too many side effects, including death. And if one were to read the instructions, it actually is not even rated to be given to cats. Another prob is, it stays in the body, for like 2 months, not the 10 days to 2 weeks of actually giving the pills. Worst prob is, if the kitty has a reaction to the convenia shot, you are sca-rood, its already in there, you can't stop giving it, as you would with pills. 

That is my choice. Some will give it anyways, as they don't want to mess with giving pills, or are unable to.

My baby boy didn't have to die.

He had HCM. He had it, because the breeders didn't test for it. By the time I got done with them, now they do.  I too, remember that horrible, horrible day, Friday the 13th. He had thrown a clot, he couldn't use his back legs, this very very laid back and affectionate kitty, who loved his mommy dearly, was in alot of pain and scared. He bit the Critical Care Specialist and ICU Specialst, they called in, just for him. 

There was just nothing more they could do for him. 

I remember him looking at me, and saying, help me mommy. 

Then they tell me, because he bit them, they had to send his head to a lab, can this day, get any worse? So ya, I do understand.  He didn't have to die. I too, could not get that awful image out of my mind, holding him when they gave him the shot, telling him I loved him, what a good boy he was, then I could not hand him back to her. They had to about pry him out of my arms. You don't know, how close I was, to just walking out of there, with him, and burying him at home. I too, didn't care, let them try and take him from me, let them try and arrest me.  So ya, I do understand. 

What gave me comfort, is I saw him, crystal clear as day, quite a few times, and he had his head. I even petted him. Now my memories can slip back to the great days I had him, the way he looked at me, with great love in his eyes. So ya, I do understand. 

He was put down, on Friday April the 13th 2012 at 11am, and I still cry about him, and I still call his breeder on his birthday.      
 
 

ldg

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Flint, I don't think anyone felt you were "pushing" vaccines. :hugs:

LillyDSH is.

I think all that happened is that the OP, Tailzzz24 was confused between the 2 different types of rabies vaccinations.
 
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tailzzz24

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Thanks, LDG - I was very close to this cat and the one I lost to CRF before him, so whether to vaccinate or not is kind of a sore issue with me.

You posted some excellent articles, some that confirm that $$$ might be the reason behind the lagging laws. If money is the issue, I would prefer they mandate yearly wellness checks rather than push unnecessary vaccines - I'd abide by those willingly. Their clientele would increase if it were 'mandated', so they wouldn't even have to tack on the cost of the lost vaccine revenue - they'd still come out ahead. But the makers of the vaccines would lose out…(cha-ching...).

And vet's do make a good bit of profit off of vaccines, medications, and so forth - they're certainly not sold at cost. The vet sold me a box of FortiFlora for $42 a couple of month's ago. Found it on Amazon for like $20. Making out pretty good, if you ask me…?

Flint McCullough, I hope I didn't come across as angry at you? LDG is right - I just got confused and thought they were recommending rabies vaccines yearly again (they are), instead of every 3 years, but not knowing anything at all about there being any difference between the 2 vaccines. I thought the 1-year vaccine was identical to the 3-year, and that they were just tightening up on the frequency of them again. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did though - I don't think I could have handled that. But even with that being said, I just can't vaccinate my 'kids'. If you show your cats though, there probably is a much greater risk of catching these.

You mentioned HCM though? Can cats have HCM, rear-leg paralysis, and not be in any pain? My sister had to put 2 of her cats to sleep maybe a couple of months apart because they developed sudden rear-leg paralysis. It was sudden, no warning whatsoever, and I don't remember her telling me they were in any pain, just that they were unable to move their hind legs and had to drag them around behind them. Both came from the same litter. Both were long-haired cats. One cat developed paralysis and had to be put down. And then a few months later it happened all over again with the other one. She took them to a neurologist and he couldn't explain it. Could it have been HCM? She had them put down and never did get any answers. 

That must've been hard for you though. What you described was exactly how I felt.
 

ldg

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I think it is VERY important to be clear about the AVMA's objective. https://www.avma.org/about/whoweare/pages/mission.aspx

While their "mission" states

"The mission of the Association is to improve animal and human health and advance the veterinary medical profession."

Let's note that "advance the veterinary medical profession" part. Because their objective is

"The objective of the Association shall be to advance the science and art of veterinary medicine, including its relationship to public health, biological science, and agriculture."

What does all of this mean? That the AVMA, like ANY professional organization, is there to advocate for its members: the VETERINARIANS. Of course some care and concern for animals factors in there by the nature of the profession. But people should not confuse the goals and objectives of the AVMA, and that is not necessarily to advocate what is best for ANIMALS.

Doing the right thing for the animals is up to the individual vets - and it is up to us to decide how well our vets do that.
 
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tailzzz24

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Well said!
 

flintmccullough

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I didn't think you were mad at me, just that maybe I didn't explain it very well, lol, and LDG gave an excellent and very detailed explanation. 

Kitties that didn't have to die, like you said, is a real sore subject with me too. 

When the subject of rabies comes up, I just like to make pet parents aware, of what can *possibly* happen, just so they are aware of it, well, because I been thru it, and with him, it weren't pleasant. I respect someone's decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate, I never try to change their mind, only make them aware of what might or could possibly happen.

I don't like that they changed it to every year either.  But its the law, and I don't want to mess, with what could happen, since I already been thru it. Its going to cost $135 for 2 kittens on Friday, for their rabies shots, and for me, after being laid off for 5 months, and only back to work 1 month, its alot of money, but.....its the law.  I sometimes wonder, if they changed it, just to make more money.  I guess too, if I had a kitty that got seriously sick or died, from sarcoma, I might feel different.

Years ago, I used to get all the shots at once, as the vets recommend, until 1 kitten had a violent reaction, within 5 min of leaving the vet. I rushed him back, they gave him a shot of Benedryl and waited 30 min, he was fine. But....was it the rabies shot he had the reaction to, or was it the FVRCP shot he had the reaction to? We will never know, so now, he has to be pretreated with a shot of Benedryl, before any, shot, and the resulting kittens, now get 1 shot at a time, if there is a reaction, now, we know, to which one.

As for the HCM, his was genetic, Maine Coon. Maine Coons and Ragdolls are prone to it, as are Persians and other breeds, on a lesser scale. It does not mean they will get it, just that they are prone to it. He was the only kitten in the litter that had it. I called the breeder, and she called the kitten buyers, who had his brothers and sisters, all were negative. It can affect only 1 kitten in the litter, and it can skip a generation. His breeder had his parents tested, they were negative, it was traced back to his grandmother, on his mothers side, so his breeder, spayed his mother, to be on the safe side. Males are more prone, but females can get it too. 

I was ignorant of HCM at the time, his breeder was ignorant about it too. Being ignorant is one thing, knowing about it and not testing, is another.  His grandparents and behind were all top championship kitties.  When I got done with them, they were all tested, and the positive ones, were removed from the breeding program, which, if they had bothered to test in the first place, his grandmother should have been spayed and removed from the breeding program. They messed with the wrong kitten buyer. 

Any kitty can have heart issues, even the domestic kitties.

I can only speak from his experience. He was the most very laid back and affectionate kitty. He never cried. That morning, he was crying. The ER doctors said he was in alot of pain.

He threw a clot. Sometimes they throw a clot, and its over in a minute. The kitty can be playing one minute, and gone the next. Each situation is different.

My breeder gave me 2 kittens, she really only owed me 1, and when I told her that I had to put him down, she said when you are ready, I will give you another kitten. These kittens are  from 2 totaly different parents, not even close, to the original line. And the future kitten, is from another line.

I do understand, how you feel and what you went thru, and how you blame yourself, I did, for a very long time.  I was just trying to tell you, I do understand. 

I am so very sorry, for what you went thru, I could feel your pain, as you told the story, it was like reliving mine. Some great and very knowledgeable kitties on here, and in case we forgot to say it, welcome to the board. 

I too, feel alot of this goes back to money. The farm-a-sue-ticle companies make zillions of dollors on vaccines, so ya, they are going to push them.  But I can't not, they have a higher degree of exposure at shows.  Should we show? I am a waitin, for that discussion to come up some day, LOL. 


((((((((((BIG HUGS)))))))))   
 

lillydsh

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It's easier just to do the combo vaccine. It includes panleukemia (feline distemper). It also includes rhinotracheitis, which is a common upper respiratory disease in cats. Combo vaccines also include calicivirus, which is another common respiratory disease. It's best to do the 4-way vaccine, as it also includes feline chlamydia. Vaccines are used to boost the animal's immune system against disease.
 
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tailzzz24

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Actually now I'm wondering if this is what happened with the 2 cats of mine who had heart attacks? I know that one of them, the first one to go, had an enlarged heart. She was actually my only 'escape artist' - slipped out twice while I was taking my dog out, and I didn't notice because she was all black. Came back both times though. I miss them though - you probably get it - anybody who's lost a pet gets it.

And I 'think' my sister's cats may have had some Maine Coone in them? You said only one from a litter can get it though, so maybe it was something else other than HCM. I think the neurologist told her it was 'probably' viral, but no real answers.

I think it was really nice of your breeder to give you more kittens though. They can never replace the one you had, but nobody really wants a pet 'replaced' - it's just that it can get pretty lonely otherwise. I worried when I got these two that I wouldn't feel a connection like I'd had with Kermie. I guess I got really really attached to him because he ironically outlived his 'healthier' brothers and sisters and it was just me and him from there on out. Twice they had told me this was it, this was the end - the second time the vet even went so far as to tell me that they usually don't survive their second round of acute CRF. But he pulled through both times - drank a lot, peed a lot, but lived another 7 years after he was first diagnosed. I used to call him my 'fighter pilot' and my 'little miracle man'. That he was. The two I have now are blessings though for sure, courtesy of him.

But thanks for the welcome, and the hugs. 
 It felt good to share all this with you and everybody here. Kind of like therapy because I'd been holding all of this in. Hugs to you! Hope your new kittens bring you happiness (by driving you c-r-a-z-y;) lol
 
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lillydsh

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There is no link between vaccines and heart attacks. An enlarged heart is caused by high blood pressure. It's very important for cats to be kept indoors. They can be poisoned, run over by a car, shot, etc. Cats live much longer if they are kept indoors.
 
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tailzzz24

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There is no proven link between vaccines and heart attacks, and nothing can ever be proven (or disproven) if it's not being studied.

I keep all my cats indoors - always have. My one cat though managed to get out twice while I was taking my dog out, just slipped through the doorway - she was a good-sized dog, so I had to open it fairly wide for the two of us. We were worried sick about her getting hit by a car or getting lost - she went missing for a week both times.
 

maewkaew

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Actually now I'm wondering if this is what happened with the 2 cats of mine who had heart attacks? I know that one of them, the first one to go, had an enlarged heart. She was actually my only 'escape artist' - slipped out twice while I was taking my dog out, and I didn't notice because she was all black. Came back both times though. I miss them though - you probably get it - anybody who's lost a pet gets it.

And I 'think' my sister's cats may have had some Maine Coone in them? You said only one from a litter can get it though, so maybe it was something else other than HCM. I think the neurologist told her it was 'probably' viral, but no real answers.
 
She didn't mean that 2 kittens in a litter can't get it.   She meant that it CAN just be one kitten out of a litter.  Not that it's always only one kitten.     It could be any amount .  could be just one  or it could be the whole litter.

This and other heart disease can happen in Domestic Shorthairs / Domestic Longhairs,  "moggies",  cats who aren't any particular breed,  too.     In fact that's the majority of cases ( since they are the vast majority of cats!)  

The enlarged heart sounds like it may have been a different  kind of cardiomyopathy  (   disease of the heart) ,  Dilated Cardiomyopathy.   Here is an article that tells about the different kinds of cardiomyopathy in cats  http://www.icatcare.org/advice/cat-health/cardiomyopathy-heart-disease-cats

 I am so sorry for your losses.  It is heartbreaking.  I am glad you at least have had a chance to share it here with people who understand.  

  I have had cats die of kidney disease too.  and I totally get wanting to do something to avoid it.   Your Kermie was a very very handsome boy. 

 I feel bad also that I always used to get annual distemper shots.   I will not be doing that again.   but i have also seen unvaccinated kittens die of  distemper. so I don't want to not vaccinate at all.   but just keep it to a minimum .

I also used to know nothing about feline nutrition and I fed nearly all dry food with too much carbohydrate.  I didn't realize that the lack of water might have played a role too,  with them going around partly dehydrated that could put a bigger stress on their kidneys.      It was only when a cat got diabetes that I started to learn ,  and realised that a diet closer to a cat's natural diet would also be healthier for  kidneys and urinary tract.   So  I am hoping that less vaccination , and a healthier diet   will help keep my cats I have now healthy.    but I know there are no guarantees.      I learned a lot from Dr. Pierson's site http://www.catinfo.org    about diet.  that is the same site with that article about vaccinations.
 

flintmccullough

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He was diagnosed at 10 months old, during a wellness exam. He was sent to 2 cardiologists, one was in Wisconsin, I forget now where the other one was, you would think I would remember, I remember every other detail of that saga. Both said he would not live past 1 yr old. I said oh H no, find me another cardiologist. I too was told, thats it, thats all there is.  He was sent to UC Davis, Dr Mark Littleton. He said, there is alot we can do, but....it is fatal. 

I did extensive research on it, as did my vet, and Dr Littleton was very involved. He was put on meds, he was put on different feeds, and I was told what to do, what to watch for, etc. He was so laid back, so very happy, and doing very well. They let him return to the circuit and finish out the season, because he loved to show, it made him very happy. The judges always said, he is surveying his little kingdom, he is saying, aren't I pretty, look at me, he had real show presence. He finished in the Top 10 in his Region, in 6th place. I am grateful for that, he got to earn a title, he started, and loved. He was in 1st place, when they pulled him.  It was something he loved to do, and he got to finish, what he started.

Its not that only 1 kitten in the litter will get it, its....it can only hit one kitten, and leave the others alone, there is always the possibility it can affect the others too. Thats why my breeder called the kitten buyers who had his brothers and sisters, so they could take them in and get tested, they were all fine.

Its possible for it to skip a generation, but it could possibly affect consecutive generations. In his case, it did, it skipped his mother. His grandmother had it, as did her relatives and her parents.  I wished it could have skipped him too, but......I guess the plan for him, and being that he picked me, and the universe, knowing it needed someone to stand and fight, which would be me, and say.....no more are going to be born. It stopped with him, I took down the monsters.  Because of him, because of me, that diseased line stopped and created awareness of testing, I demanded it.  So the universe had a plan for him.  

Maybe someone readiing on here for the first time, and not aware of HCM, will now ask about it, to a breeder, of a possible kitten. 

This is therapy for me too, to share his story, and make people aware of HCM and testing for Maine Coons and Ragdolls. 

The point of testing, is to remove the positive ones, from the breeding program. Even if they test negative, its possible for it to show up later, it just means, that at that point in time, they are negative, but if breeders test, they can remove the positive ones, and lessen the odds, of another kitten like him, being born, and his mommy or daddy going thru, what I went thru. That was my mission, and I never stopped, the more they hit me, the more I got up and fought harder. They threatened me, they threatened him, I kept going and won, took me a whole year to find it, and force testing and spaying/neutering.  No more of him will be born.

He lived to be 5 yrs old. I am thankful, it wasn't over in a minute, as happens to some. I had the chance to tell him I loved him, for him to say he loved me, for us to say our goodbyes.

The kittens loved him, and he loved them, he watched over them and taught them, he was their big brother. They cried too, when I brought home his empty carrier. 
 

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It's easier just to do the combo vaccine. It includes panleukemia (feline distemper). It also includes rhinotracheitis, which is a common upper respiratory disease in cats. Combo vaccines also include calicivirus, which is another common respiratory disease. It's best to do the 4-way vaccine, as it also includes feline chlamydia. Vaccines are used to boost the animal's immune system against disease.
I would strongly recommend you read this:  http://www.catvets.com/public/PDFs/PracticeGuidelines/VaccinationGLS.pdf   It's Panleukopenia, not Panleukemia.   Chlamydia is not considered a 'core' vaccination and should only be given to cats who live in a mutli cat household or who may be exposed to it via contact with other cats such as fostering.  It is best to give the vaccinations NOT in a combo, as then you aren't providing such an insult to their immune system.
 
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My cat Simone also has to have Benadryl before her vaccines. She got the kitten series and was extraordinarily lethargic for a few days--not just the normal amount of sleepiness on the day of the shots.  I have no idea if it was the combo of shots, or one of them that causes the reaction, but it sure doesn't make me excited to get her boosters.  She's pretty wild too. I can handle most cats. And my old Maine Coon Hazel, was cantankerous too. The vet put in red caps on her chart that said SPIRITED and then underlined it 3 times. That's the cat I got through Hepatic Lipadosis at 3 and over the course of her life, a couple more series of antibiotics.

She started having kidney failure in her elderly years and she became mortally ill after her last round of shots. It didn't occur to me that the shots may have done it. I'm not an anti-vaccine person for people--or pets but I wish there were more information on the types of shots that are available--or info on what the vet you go to uses.

For example, Simone who goes to a different vet practice than the others--do they use a different type of vaccine than the cat only clinic that 3 of the cats go to? (The cat only clinic is less and less my favorite for a few reasons).  And apparently it it has been the recommendation for years that shots not be administered in the scruff of the neck--but that is where Simone got her shot and now has a life-long flat, bald spot there. It isn't raised, it isn't red--it's the color of  her skin---without hair. The vet has no idea what it is. Yeah, I think I do. That's where the shot was administered.  Simone is a wild child as I had mentioned and I think the vet was alarmed by her growling and snarling and there was no way she was going to give the shot in a leg or her back hip.

getting her in the pet taxi is hell. I use the same technique I did with Hazel--tip the taxi and load her in back first--like a kitty cannon. After that it's like the Tasmanian Devil in the cage. And there is no backing down once at the vet. Horrible.

Anyway, should she get ill and require medication of any sort---I don't think I'm going to be successful with her. Hazel was sort of crabby but she loved me and was my constant pal. Simone is just this unpleasant cat that loves me only when it is meal time. I'm like the island of misfit toys though...and cats that end up here stay here for ever. The other cats are pretty easy going though and sweet and love us pretty much always---unless one needs a wet wipe.
 
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flintmccullough

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The kittens went in yesterday for their rabies boosters, as I call them. I asked my vet about tailzzz24's original question. 

She said each kitty is different, some have reactions, some don't, its just like people, and with any shot, kitty or human, their is always a risk. Its up to the pet parent to decide, if the possible risk, is worth, what can happen, if not vacinated.  She said for tail's specific kitty, she would have to know the kitty, and her medical/home history, to be able to figure out, what happened and why.  She also said, she had not heard, that there have been any issues, per say, regarding the FVRCP shot, commonly referred to as the "distemper" shot. I have not heard any either. 

Thats not to say, some kitties may have had reactions or issues, but its more on an individual case.  If vets were seeing more and more issues, with the FVRCP shot, then they would be trying to figure out, what is going on, as they did with the rabies 3 yr vaccine and the adjuvent issues.  She said the 1 yr rabies vaccine is pur vax, it has no adjuvent in it, vets feel its safer.

She also said that they don't make their money on the exams, tests, big ticket items, those pretty much average out, at cost. Their bread and butter, what they make their money on, is the vaccines. Which I kinda already knew, as my horse vet used to tell me that.  She said some vets will push getting 2 or 3 "shots" at once. Some vets will vaccine a kitty that is ill or has other possible issues. She was presented with a 12 yr old kitty, that was not feeling well, she refused to vaccine the kitty. She said vaccinating a kitty that is already sick, is asking for trouble. The system is already taxed, with an illness, now your taxing the system even further, with the vaccine. She would rather the owner spend the money on finding out what is wrong, like starting with a blood panel. 

When you vaccinate a kitty, you are injecting poison, per say, into the system and teaching the system, to defend against it, kinda like the shot is the Philadelphia Eagles, the system is the Dallas Cowboys, the Dallas Cowboys are sending their soldiers, their players, to defend against the Eagles, and to recognize when the Eagles show up, to smush them to a pulp. Thats kinda how it works.

If the kitty is not feeling well, as in already trying to defend against the NY Giants, the sickness, and now your sending in a vaccine, the Eagles, the Cowboys can't defend against the Giants, and the Eagles, in the same game, the Cowboys are the ones that get smushed. The kitty gets smushed.

I thought that was a pretty good explanation, given on my football terms, that was easily understandable, for me, LOL. 

She said thats why, they do the exam, to make sure the kitty is not already playing a football game, to make sure the kitty is healthy, before they send the kitty to play any game, such as the vaccine. 

She said, some vets don't care, if the kitty is already playing a game, they will vaccinate, and send in another team for the kitty to play, just to make the money. 

She also said, some kitties are just not cut out to play pro football, and will have a reaction or issue, when sent to play any team, even a high school team.  That is an individual and case by case. The vet has to work with the owner, to come up with an alternative game plan. 

She has some understanding of football, and I talk about the Cowboys and my moral enemies in the NFC East enough, she explained it on my level. She is pretty good like that, if the owner doesn't understand something, she will find another way to explain it, so that they do. She wants owners involved in the care and treatment of their pets, she wants owners to understand what is going on, so they can make an informed decision. 

Kitten shots are given in a series of 2 shots, and they should be spaced at least 3 weeks apart.  FVRCP is a combo shot, from memory, believe there is 4 items, per say, in that one shot, I would have to look it up, but I think whats in there, has already been discussed in here. Its actualy 1 shot, and its commonly referred to as the "distemper" shot.

She said she will not vaccinate for the leukemia shot, the risk is too great, the rest of her explanation, I forgot, as I was trying to keep kittens, on the table, and keeping them from knocking things down. LDG could prob better explain about that one.  

One should never give 2 "shots" at the same time, as that is overloading the system, and if there is a reaction, one would not know, to which shot, the kitty had the reaction. I learned that the hard way, many years ago, now he has to be pretreated with benedryl before any shot.

Some kitties are just not going to feel well the whole day, even if given just one shot, its the same as humans, kitties are indivudals, and each kitty is different. Just know, the kitty should be feeling their normal self, with in 24 hours, if not, ya best take them back in. Since doing 1 "shot" at a time, mine never miss a beat, ya would never know they even got a shot, they were running and playing yesterday.

As far as loading, mine walk right in the carrier when I open the door, but they were taught that, they didn't come from the breeders, pre trained, LOL, they was alot of "assembly required". You can teach any kitty to load, but it takes alot of time and alot alot of patience, it doesn't happen overnight. 

Shots are given in the leg. The rabies is given in the right leg, R for Rabies, R for Right Leg. There is another shot, given in the left leg, forget now, which one it is. The reason they give it in the leg, is in case, there should be an issue, its easier to amputate the leg, than to lose the whole cat. There is one shot, that is given in the scruff, and that one too, I forget what it is, LDG or the others would know. 

Hope this helps.  
  
        
 

denice

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I have a cat's only vet that doesn't push vaccines.  The clinic's charges for other things are a little higher than the average for this area.  They must've switched more of their profit to other things so they don't have a business need to push vaccines.
 

flintmccullough

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It doesn't work like that, LOL. 


Its what it costs them, versus, what they charge the client, is where they make their profit.  Lets say my vet charges $85 for an x-ray, but your vet charges $100, but the cost to the vet is $75. My vet made $10 profit, your vet made $25 profit. Remember it cost them money, to buy that x-ray machine, and the film and what ever they do to develope it.  So not that much of a profit, when you figure, how many kitties are really comeing in every day for x-rays, not that many.  

Ya gotta figure, they buy their vaccines in bulk, prob at a low cost to them, because they are vets. Then how many vaccines they get out of that gallon jug, per say, and how many kitties are coming in every day, day after day, for vaccines, thats....where they make their profit.

Its kinda like Wally World, they buy their goods in bulk, at a reduced price, because they buy so much. Thats how they can charge less, than the average store.  Retail is marked up like 300%, so even on Black Friday, when people are buying goods at 50% off, they are buying alot, so they just made more money, on that day, than on the average day. 

Its what it costs them, versus what they charge, and how much of that product is being purchased alot.

My vet does not push vaccines either, she would rather find out, whats wrong with the kitty, than to vaccinate a sick kitty. The shows require it, but even if I didn't show, I would still vaccine for rabies. In my state its the law. If your pet bites you or someone, and no rabies cert, the kitty is quaranteened for 10 days at your expense. How much is boarding per day? If the kitty needs to be put down, they will send his head to a lab, I lived thru not, not something I would wish on anyone, not even the Eagles or G Men. If a bat gets into your house, or kitty should get loose, and is bitten  by a rabid animal, turn out the lights, the party is over, and it ain't pretty.  But that is my choice, its my kitty. I feel what can possibly go wrong, is worth the risk. To me, the vaccine is the lesser of 2 evils.

But I do understand too, those that have had issues with rabies vaccine, and I understand and even support their decision, not to vaccinate. Its their kitty, its their choice, they are doing what they feel, is best for the kitty. 

If I had a issue, which I kinda do, I might be hesitant to vaccinate too.  I have one, that has to be pretreated with Benedryl, because he had a reaction, to which shot, we will never know. Thankfully, the Benedryl works, if it didn't, I too might not vaccinate him any more, and pray, he does not get exposed to anything. In that case, the reaction far out weighs the vaccine protection. 

Vets have a site, that we pet parents don't have access to. Vets discuss stuff. Ask your vet, if there has been any talk, of any kitties having kidney issues related to the distemper shot. Start your own site, see if you get responces from pet parents about it. There are a zillion ways, to find out. 

With the HCM, they don't know yet, what causes it. The Winn Foundation only recently discovered a genetic marker, that was hidden under another one. Its small, but its a start. They were also doing a study, with HCM kitties, to see if there was a relation to their diet, or vaccines, or something, I forget now, and my vet said I could take him. It was in June, he passed in April.  It might still be on thier site, what it was, they were looking for, in relation to. 

http://ragdollresearch.org/

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/

  
 
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