population stabilization

Again nothing personal. Since this movement has such opposition it is important to be thorough. Sorry if you are offended.

pocho said:

And yes theory is great. A lot of things start out as theory, then practices then proven fact. TNR perhaps was a theory before practice at one point before considered 'fact' by some later.

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pocho said:

My main point is also educating people. That is how change happens of course. I think the science of population dynamics could help. The hysteria surrounding the number of cats and the mad rush to fix the perceived problem by both sides could be tempered a bit.

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Yes, of course. I'm sorry, I've just been working in feral cat advocacy for almost a decade now. I'm a little jaded, because

pocho said:

The population will not grow without cease until they take over the world and no birds are left:catguy:

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This IS what many wildlife biologists / conservationists are trying to convince policy makers is going to happen.

pocho said:

I have read many similiar studies to the ones you sent and am convinced TNR does work better than TE. But thank you I will read these too.

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:scratch: You asked a specific question, I provided links to studies that answered the specific question.

pocho said:

am wondering if scientist that study population dynamics could shed some light on the feral cat population debate?

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There are a few studies on cats as apex predators and trophic cascades (some cat specific); a number of studies on cat reproduction and territory ranges, cat population density measurements; but the focus of studies tends to be on predation and diet.

The scientists publishing work on cats currently are almost universally trying to provide "science" that is anti-cat. You will find the same names repeated over and over again in the more recent literature: Peter Marra (works for the bird conservation dept of the Smithsonian), Will Loss (one of the anti-cat employees of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service); Christopher Lepczyk (Michigan Univ Dept Fish & Wildlife); Travis Longcore, President of the Urban Wildlands Group (that brought suit against the City of Los Angeles to stop the city allowing feral cats/TNR to be sterilized via its low cost spay/neuter program. Yes, they won, and LA cannot legally sponsor TNR now), Nico Dauphine (who was found guilty of poisoning cats and no longer factors into anti-cat "research"), her under-study at Univ of GA Warnell School of Forestry, Kerri Ann Llyod.... and dialogue with these people is nasty. They are uninterested in anything but vilifying the cat.

I can imagine the exhausting work you have done and to tell you the truth this small experience of mine has wrecked my nerves. I am looking for new ways to change people's perspectives. Just getting people to calm down over the mere site of free roaming cats could help. If my joke about cats taking over the whole entire planet is actually trying to be proven by some scientists(and not a joke) hysteria on people's behalf will not help put their 'proof' in perspective. Even small facts like the smell of cats, not just the hunting, deters rodents could help towards the spraying complaints. Looks like the anti cat forces have more funding? 

Well, sterilizing cuts down the smell of spraying complaints. :lol3:

It's not that the anti-cat crowd has better funding. It's that they have PhDs and get published. They cry "but THIS was published in a peer review journal" any time Vox Felina, Alley Cat Allies, or Best Friends counters with something....

Just google "how many birds do cats kill." There are voices of reason in the first few pages, but notice the number of articles from around January 29 / 30 of this year.

LDG said:

Well, sterilizing cuts down the smell of spraying complaints.

It's not that the anti-cat crowd has better funding. It's that they have PhDs and get published. They cry "but THIS was published in a peer review journal" any time Vox Felina, Alley Cat Allies, or Best Friends counters with something....

Just google "how many birds do cats kill." There are voices of reason in the first few pages, but notice the number of articles from around January 29 / 30 of this year.

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Oh i see. Don't you believe though the vast majority of the population likes cats? And in the end won't this have the greatest influence? There are so many in my particular situation that show kindness to the ferals here I would say more than half are completely socialized. This is my hope.

Don't you believe though the vast majority of the population likes cats?

Sometimes I think everyone but me hates cats!  I come to TCS to talk to others who also think they are marvelous creatures.

I believe it is true that there are more people with pet cats but I also think that is because most homes with cats have more than one.

I admire people like you poncho - trying to help but also making sure they get the facts right.  Your research will help you in your quest to help others understand that cats are not the destructive fiends too many people say they are.

Ondine said:

 
Don't you believe though the vast majority of the population likes cats?

Sometimes I think everyone but me hates cats!  I come to TCS to talk to others who also think they are marvelous creatures.

I believe it is true that there are more people with pet cats but I also think that is because most homes with cats have more than one.

I admire people like you poncho - trying to help but also making sure they get the facts right.  Your research will help you in your quest to help others understand that cats are not the destructive fiends too many people say they are.

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We shall decrease the cat population while increasing the cat lover population world wide! Hooray! Thanks and right back at ya

A survey by Alley Cat Allies found that 81% of people in the U.S. believe it's more humane to not kill the cats. So that's something.

U.S. Public Opinion on Humane Treatment of Stray Cats

I hadn't seen this before: Alley Cat Allies published a report this year, Trap-Neuter-Return Ordinances and Policies in the United States: The Future of Animal Control

From the press release in advance of the report: http://www.alleycat.org/page.aspx?pid=1448

The number of local governments with policies favoring Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR) for outdoor cats has risen exponentially over the past decade, from just 23 in 2003 to 240 this year, according to a new report released by Alley Cat Allies, the only national advocacy organization dedicated to the protection and humane treatment of cats. Additionally, 91 other counties now either support TNR or condone it as a valid method of animal control.

....States with the highest number of TNR ordinances include New Jersey with 58, California with 33, and Texas with 29 ordinances, the report says. Major municipalities and counties that have adopted TNR include San Francisco, the District of Columbia, and New York City.

“This report is proof that our policies are finally catching up with our core values in this country,” Robinson said. “Americans love cats—and they don’t want millions of taxpayer dollars spent on killing innocent, healthy animals.”

Nationally, 70 percent of cats overall and virtually 100 percent of feral cats are killed in shelters. But polls show that most Americans do not support killing animals. For instance, a Harris Interactive poll commissioned by Alley Cat Allies found that an overwhelming majority of Americans -- 81 percent -- believe that leaving a stray cat outside to live out his life is more humane than having him caught and put down.

In addition to local governments, two states, Illinois and Utah, and the District of Columbia, have enacted laws that support TNR, and others, including Florida, are pondering bills supporting TNR at their current legislative sessions.

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The report: http://www.alleycat.org/document.doc?id=639 (PDF)

Having read some of these posts I'm quite glad that I live in the area I live in. I used to get quite frustrated at the fact that there were no animal shelters around, but at least people don't see the cats here as a problem. Feral cats do a great job of protecting the rice and corn fields from mice and birds. They seem to congregate around temples and shrines, where there are lots of safe places for them to hide, and people say they are "Temple Guardians" because they protect the wooden structures from rodents who might chew them. I guess people living in the cities might have a different attitude towards cats, but in the countryside at least they are tolerated.

Maybe you can give me your opinion on a few points my husband and I argue about.

I think that cats are an introduced species. They've been in Japan for about 500 years, but I don't think that is long enough for them to totally adapt to their new surroundings. I think they still need help from people in order to survive, which is why they stay around farms and villages rather than taking off into the forest. (I live right next to a massive forest full of all kinds of creatures, but the cats seem to prefer living near people.) My husband says they will be fine if they aren't being fed by people, but I don't agree.

I also think that if cats are drawn to human beings and if we feed them, either directly by leaving food out for them or indirectly by leaving trash and unwanted food out, we have a responsibility to them. My husband can't understand why I'm trying to get as many stray cats neutered as I can, but I don't bother with the foxes, raccoons, deer etc. I think that cats are a domesticated animal, that even feral born kittens soon become friendly and start to rely on people for food and shelter, whereas other forest animals don't. We do get they occasional monkey, bear or raccoon trying to rip open trash bags if there are very heavy snows in the winter, but they mainly try to avoid people even if there is a regular food source. Therefore they are truly "wild" animals whereas cats, which I see as an introduced, domesticated species, are not really wild.

This is why I leave food out for the stray cats in my neighbourhood, try to TNR as many as I can and help any sick or injured cats that I see. My husband thinks I'm just being British and eccentric.. He doesn't try to stop me from doing it, but he can't really understand WHY I do it either.

I believe animals that self domesticate are a special bunch. They straddle a line. They are attractive to us for a reason. Feed them if you feel compelled. But humans seem to cause more harm when their 'help'is actually just trying to control. 

Given that the cats do gravitate to easily available food sources and kittens can easily be socialized, I think fostering and adopting out kittens to loving homes, and sterilizing and feeding the cats provides them with a higher quality of life than they would otherwise have. Sterilizing, IMO, provides many benefits: the primary one being no more breeding, so this stops the cycle of homeless cats. The additional benefit is the lack of hormones, which reduces territoriality. This means they do not spread disease as easily due to fighting and mating, and people that do not like cats are less likely to harm them because the cats are not driven to engage in behavior that makes people complain about their presence.

Part of what keeps a colony size stable is that it is self-limiting.  New cats simply don't want to invade an already established turf.  If you remove cats, you get the vacuum effect, and new cats will come in to take over the newly vacated area.  I also suspect different locales are more or less attractive to feral cats in general.

I think part of the problem with letting a feral cat population get to maximum capacity, meaning all the cats that can potentially survive on the available food sources are present, is that sickness and disease often starts to take hold.  The animals are no longer healthy, I've seen studies on that happening with dogs in India, video of it happening with racoons in Florida, and I've seen it happen to a cat colony that lived next to me when I was 14 yrs old.

The cats were heartbreaking, ear mites ran through the whole colony, along with upper respiratory infection that had caused multiple kittens to lose eyes, among other things.  I also learned years later that at least some of the cats had Feline Aids (sorry can't think of the correct short hand for it.).  I watched my favorite cat out of them get uncontrolled diarrhea and slowly die, I begged and pleaded for someone to take her and I to the vet so that I could at least have her put to sleep but no one would take me.  Then there came a time when a few of the cats just died for no reason, healthy one day, dead the next, we always suspected poison.  The lady who cared for them loved them, but she seemed blind to the suffering.  I did what I could but I was a young teen without money, or a car, to even begin to provide medical help.

I'd much rather see a TNR program in place and the population held in check before that happens.  I'd rather see sterile, healthy animals, then fertile, sickly ones. 

Rainbo said:

I'd much rather see a TNR program in place and the population held in check before that happens.  I'd rather see sterile, healthy animals, then fertile, sickly ones. 

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Absolutely!  And TNR programs are only as good as the caretakers and feeders involved in the program.  One of the responsibilities of "colony keepers" here in Chicago, for example, is to pay attention to the health and well-being of the cats in the colony and make sure they are treated for any medical problems or injuries.  That's how I now have a 3-legged semi-feral living with me! 

Neutering all cats and dogs is the key to good management and stewardship, whether they're house pets or living "wild" in the community.

Look what I just found in an article from 2010- Go San Angelo standard times

"

A January article in London’s Financial Times analyzing the infiltration of stray dogs in Moscow stated that the dog population there is believed to have stabilized at 35,000. Their life expectancy rarely exceeds 10 years, the article states, and puppies born to stray dogs have a survival rate equal only to the replacement rate of adult dogs that die.

The purported self-regulation — coupled with the belief that the dogs keep the city cleaner by preying on its rodent population — has made Russians more tolerant of coexisting with them.

Feral cat advocates agree that cats control the rodent population but say the animals’ experience as ferals are otherwise different from that of dogs."

I wonder how long it takes for an environment to adapt to an "invasive' species? There is adapting happening with feral cats obviously but at what rate? With tnr efforts could the population steady and then self regulate?

puppies born to stray dogs have a survival rate equal only to the replacement rate of adult dogs that die.

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This of course means that the rest of the puppies die, usually from starvation or disease . Which is a major reason for TNR---to reduce the suffering of the animals and prevent the deaths of more puppies/kittens. Natural population stabilization means a lot of deaths.

I don't know if Moscow has a TNR program for dogs, but other countries such as Turkey, Greece, and India are having some good success with dog TNR programs. Now, for urban/suburban areas of the US, I think free-roaming dogs are a bad idea (feral cats rarely attack people or other animals), but it's different in those countries.

Willowy said:

This of course means that the rest of the puppies die, usually from starvation or disease

. Which is a major reason for TNR---to reduce the suffering of the animals and prevent the deaths of more puppies/kittens. Natural population stabilization means a lot of deaths.

I don't know if Moscow has a TNR program for dogs, but other countries such as Turkey, Greece, and India are having some good success with dog TNR programs. Now, for urban/suburban areas of the US, I think free-roaming dogs are a bad idea (feral cats rarely attack people or other animals), but it's different in those countries.

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Oh I see, I interpreted it as equal amount of old dogs die to size of litter...

http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol15/iss4/art10/

Under 50 cats TNR over 50 TE for population control? If anyone smarter can interpret this it would be greatly appreciated. I have been trying to read up on population dynamics which has lead me to many scientific journals and papers. I am ill equipped here to really understand what I am reading. I am noticing even in serious science circles there is endless debate and even agendas...

I know nobody cares for this thread anymore but look at this! The more studies I read the more I realize everything can be questioned. We has internet info consumers should take everything with a grain of salt. Here is a snippet-

The link between species invasions and the extinction of natives is widely accepted by scientists as well as conservationists, but available data supporting invasion as a cause of extinctions are, in many cases, anecdotal, speculative and based upon limited observation. We pose the question, are aliens generally responsible for widespread extinctions? Our goal is to prompt a more critical synthesis and evaluation of the available data, and to suggest ways to take a more scientific, evidence-based approach to understanding the impact of invasive species on extinctions. Greater clarity in our understanding of these patterns will help us to focus on the most effective ways to reduce or mitigate extinction threats from invasive species.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534704002022

and this-

Invasive species are widely accepted as one of the leading direct causes of biodiversity loss. However, much of the evidence for this contention is based on simple correlations between exotic dominance and native species decline in degraded systems. Although appealing, direct causality is not the only possible interpretation. A plausible alternative hypothesis is that exotic dominance could be the indirect consequence of habitat modification driving native species loss. In a new paper, MacDougall and Turkington now provide the first direct test of whether invasive species are the drivers of community change, or merely ‘passengers’ along for the environmental ride.