population stabilization

I wanted to throw in my two cents on the population density/ecosystem debate, this is not meant to be an attack on anyone because I think it is important to consider everyone's views.  I am going to use an example other than cats because, as has been mentioned, cats are good at hiding disease/injury and they can make themselves almost unnoticeable when the choose to do so.  Where I live there is a problem with "urban" deer.  Many areas have this issue and I can only speak to the situation where I live.  The deer have come into town because humans are increasingly building in their territory.  They have found a lot of easy food although the food is not the best for their systems there is more of it.  Also, there is a lack of most natural predators.  Accordingly, the deer have thrived.  They are not the healthiest looking deer but there are a lot of them.  This has caused issues because people can't have gardens or non-deer resistant flowers without barricading their yards.  Does with fawns charge people if they are startled and have killed small dogs.  You see deer around town with broken legs and other injuries and sometimes come out to a dead deer in your yard and there are increasing car v. deer incidents.  In order to deal with the problem, towns consider allowing bow hunting in the city limits or sterilization programs.  Would the population stabilize on its own?  Maybe, years down the line.  The problem is that humans have created a situation that is not natural and a natural solution is not likely to correct the situation any time soon.  The same can be said of cat colonies.  Humans by their mere presence, (having garbage cans/buildings to shelter in/driving away predators), have created an unnatural situation even if they aren't actively feeding or sheltering the cats.  To expect nature to then solve the situation is not realistic.  The reason they allow hunting of large animals in many areas is because the population sky rockets when predators are eliminated, etc. and in order to keep a healthy population, the population needs to be kept down.  Just something to think about.

Comparing deer to cats does not work because cat's natural habitat IS living on our habitat borders, fringes... They evolved that way for their survival. When you see cats hanging about dumpsters, under bridges, along fences, in old sheds, you are looking at a consequence of their design and self domestication not because there is no longer the ideal cat forest available anymore. It is because they border our definition of wild and domesticated that so much debate can be found, atleast one of the reasons.

Dahlia, the same thing is happening on some of the islands here in GA. The state is still trying to decide what to do about it. The deer here are pretty lean compared to deer on the mainland. The only predator they have here are cars.

I don't know. That is why I have all these questions. I am not seeing what is considered typical here. The predominate answer is because I don't see them all due to their hiding nature and I don't see sickness for the same reason. But I have been here since 2005 and it seems to me something would manifest in what I do see, what is not hidden. Also, the cast of main characters change. There is a main area of activity where litters happen and I don't think I can recall seeing any one cat's presence in the complex over two years? 

I was thinking predators, too.  But I also thought perhaps there are humans who are either drawing the cats away with feeding places elsewhere or drawing them away to trap and kill them.  It is very odd that you do not see the same cats - the colony itself does not seem to be stable at all.

If the unfixed male has such a large roaming area could it be better to just fix the females for an area?

If I had the choice, I would fix all the females first.  The males are going to go where they have the best chance of breeding but by doing the females first, you do cut down on kittens.

I think you are right on target doing research.  But as you have seen, all the research in the world doesn't help when there is so much conflicting info out there.  (My own vets disagree about whether dry food is OK.  One hates it and the other advocates for it).

It will be interesting to see how the colony changes (or doesn't) once the other people begin the TNR process.  Is there a way you can help them and perhaps observe the results for yourself?

My area has also made recent news for coyote sighting. But that has been recently. I have heard of an old lady that lives here and picks some of them up. Word is she is a hoarder. I am concerned about that. Sometimes it is obvious a cat is left behind when people move. I have found homes for ones abandoned that were struggling outdoors, fixed and one was even declawed. 

I called the group for information and possible classes on TNR. I actually thought they, at best, could help and provide traps. I told them all about the cats location and possible numbers, daily habits, where my shelters are....I also said I wanted to watch over the winter and do this next spring/summer. She disagreed and took over. I made fake threats about calling an attorney. I know nothing can stop her by law. I also called organizations that relocate ferals to barn cat life. I feel I know which personalities if not returned could adapt elsewhere. So working with them is not possible. From my experience people involved with cats have strong opinions and personalities. I volunteered at a rescue/sanctuary once. They had a feral cat section. It was a small room with no windows cats crammed in there miserable and permenantly freaked out. When I asked if they adopt them out as mousers the owner was horrified at the suggestion and told me all about how short outside cat life span is....I ended up leaving because i found it so disturbing to see them locked up like that.

So there you go

sorry, I want to clarify. I DIDNT declaw a cat. The cat was abandoned that way. 

Well, cats being locked up isn't TNR. So it sounds as if you're against this one lady because of what she's doing rather than TNR. Good on you for finding some of those cats new homes.

No I am against tyrants. Both were being insensitive to others, people and cats. Their way is the only way mentality. I will need luck considering I have to work against this group now.

peaches08 said:

Well, cats being locked up isn't TNR. So it sounds as if you're against this one lady because of what she's doing rather than TNR. Good on you for finding some of those cats new homes.

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R = return.

The association I was making between the two was in regards to personality not their approaches in handling ferals, obviously

LDG said:

R = return.

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Exactly! :lol3:

I have been reading about self regulation of population growth to population density in animals. This spontaneous regulation happens before maximum density is reached apparently in some animals. Many factors involved and lots to understand. Invasive species always have an initial boom. I don't know how all this can be applied to the feral cat population but think understanding more about these dynamics could help in the handling of the issue. I started researching because maximum population density was mentioned in this thread and wanted to know how and when this is typically reached excluding the scenario of natural habitat being destroyed....btw, half the kitties are gone. I hope they do a thorough job and return for more trapping. It seems a certain percentage must be trapped before it results in actual population decreasing? I don't know if they will return them here to this site either.

pocho said:

 
 I am sure babies will be taken from mothers and siblings torn apart for their best interest. People should educate themselves on feline social structure better before they go about their mission. If they would have been more respectful I could have given them so much info on each individual cat....unfortunate militian approach

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I don't understand what you're saying here about "babies taken from their mothers" and "siblings torn apart"...  When a housecat has a litter, the litter is eventually adopted out, in most cases, since it's just not possible to keep all the kittens together.  From my experience, since you cannot TNR before a certain age, and there is an optimum "window" of socialization for the kittens to be happy housecats, I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.  Should all outdoor cats be left outdoors?  Or should the kittens, and friendlier outdoor cats be given a chance to have a "forever home"?  Or what?

I will concede that in urban areas, there can develop various TNR group "factions", some more militant than others in their activities, but I find most all find the R in TNR to be "Return", and not "Relocate", unless there are severe extenuating circumstances.  If you encounter some TNR folks that you feel are overly aggressive, or not "respectful", give it another shot anyway, and try to talk to them again.  Ultimately, you and they are both trying to look out for the cats, so try to see if you can find some common ground... 

barbgee said:

 
I don't understand what you're saying here about "babies taken from their mothers" and "siblings torn apart"...  When a housecat has a litter, the litter is eventually adopted out, in most cases, since it's just not possible to keep all the kittens together.  From my experience, since you cannot TNR before a certain age, and there is an optimum "window" of socialization for the kittens to be happy housecats, I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.  Should all outdoor cats be left outdoors?  Or should the kittens, and friendlier outdoor cats be given a chance to have a "forever home"?  Or what?

I will concede that in urban areas, there can develop various TNR group "factions", some more militant than others in their activities, but I find most all find the R in TNR to be "Return", and not "Relocate", unless there are severe extenuating circumstances.  If you encounter some TNR folks that you feel are overly aggressive, or not "respectful", give it another shot anyway, and try to talk to them again.  Ultimately, you and they are both trying to look out for the cats, so try to see if you can find some common ground... 

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That was a very emotional response to my recent interaction with a TNR group. I have known these cats a long time and one of my most cherished things to witness is the Mothers with their young. I wanted to have a say in the way the colony was handled because I have watched the dynamics a long time and there is data on colonies working better after TNR if their social structures remain intact. Ideally the ones removed I thought it best for them to be barn cats and was locating groups to do that. I also have recently found disturbing reports on TNR practices, where pregnant females days away from giving birth have babies removed and killed, where post opt pain meds arent given...I was trying to be very thorough in approaching the TNR project before doing it. That meant questioning everything. I felt I had time because I just didnt see the suffering or rapid numbers rising. Should all outdoor cats be left outdoors? Some should, some shouldnt. If anyone knew which ones in the colony here it would have been me. I am considering a way to work with these people but it will be very difficult.

pocho said:

I have been reading about self regulation of population growth to population density in animals. This spontaneous regulation happens before maximum density is reached apparently in some animals. Many factors involved and lots to understand. Invasive species always have an initial boom. I don't know how all this can be applied to the feral cat population but think understanding more about these dynamics could help in the handling of the issue.

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Theory is great, but trust me, it doesn't matter one wit when it comes to feral cat management. There is a concerted effort by numerous organizations in the U.S. to have feral cats wiped out, so ultimately, it's not about "ideal" management strategies, but just fighting for the right to TNR and communities supporting it and laws that help vs making it illegal to TNR, and animal control responding to feral cat complaints by trapping them and taking them to be murdered. There have been fights in at least three states to make it legal to hunt feral cats. None have passed, but these were serious bills that took some work to get shot down, so to speak.

There's been a lot more work done on cat predation than on population management.

pocho said:

I started researching because maximum population density was mentioned in this thread and wanted to know how and when this is typically reached excluding the scenario of natural habitat being destroyed....btw, half the kitties are gone. I hope they do a thorough job and return for more trapping. It seems a certain percentage must be trapped before it results in actual population decreasing? I don't know if they will return them here to this site either.

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The mathematical models indicate 50% kill rate must be achieved for trap-and-kill; 75% sterilization rate for TNR. Of course, mathematical models are mathematical models, and the TNR models don't allow for the removal of kittens with adoption placement, which is the policy of any TNR program that has a clue.


Use of matrix population models to estimate the efficacy of euthanasia versus trap-neuter-return for management of free-roaming cats Anderson et al. JAVMA 2004


Estimation of the effectiveness of three methods of feral cat population control by use of a simulation model McCarthy et al. JAVMA 2013

By known cat haters: Costs and Benefits of Trap-Neuter-Release and Euthanasia for Removal of Urban Cats in Oahu, Hawaii Lohr et al. 2012

The AVMA collection on Feral Cats & Management (Scroll down for links to all the articles or abstracts). Included is Felicia Nutter's work on her PhD thesis, co-published with Stoskopf (where the 75% number comes from). https://www.avma.org/news/journals/collections/pages/avma-collections-feral-cats.aspx

Felicia Nutter's actual thesis: http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/thesis/nutter_2005_phd.pdf

Management of feral domestic cats n the urban environment of Rome (Italy). Natoli et al. 2006 Prev Vet Med (Abstract) This illustrates the issues of dumping and immigration ... and the authors conclude the need for education. Full PDF: http://www.carocat.eu/data/@feral_cats_in_rome.pdf

I highly recommend you read http://www.voxfelina.com but start when it was founded and work up the timeline to current.

I'm not sure how self regulation could be preferable to TNR...?

Well, what i was reading wasn't actually theory but observational data. Like I said, I wasn't necessarily applying it to the feral cat situation but to people using terms like maximum population density without fully understanding them. And yes theory is great. A lot of things start out as theory, then practices then proven fact. TNR perhaps was a theory before practice at one point before considered 'fact' by some later. I have read many similiar studies to the ones you sent and am convinced TNR does work better than TE. But thankyou I will read these too.

My main point is also educating people. That is how change happens ofcourse. I think the science of population dynamics could help. The hysteria surrounding the number of cats and the mad rush to fix the perceived problem by both sides could be tempered a bit. The population will not grow without cease until they take over the world and no birds are left

again I will use a Tabor quote-

Because the cat is now the number one companion animal in the U.S. and in the U.K., our society is forgetful that this is a recent role. Around 4.000 years ago in ancient Egypt, cats made their way into homes from the wild. In the 1500s, only the most daring would admit to liking a cat. Even by the 1800s, cats were "still stigmatized by the taint of witchcraft, which had left residual antipathy and antagonism towards cats," says Tabor in Understanding Cats.
Since that time a shift has occurred. Attitudes have evolved (especially in the U.S. and U.K.) toward cats as companion animals, including acknowledgment of the humane treatment that is their right. Humane groups in the U.S. hold the theory that all cats, whatever their circumstances, are better off indoors in a traditional home environment.
Because of this shift in perception, cats are now the victims of new stigmas equally as serious as those under which they lived during medieval times. They are now seen as killers, devastators of wildlife, spreaders of deadly disease, and polluters of the environment (are cats the unfortunate mirror we are now holding up to ourselves?). Cats are killed daily by the thousands because of these perceptions-shades of the Dark Ages-but with the salve to our collective conscience that it is for their own good. And keeping all of them exclusively indoors is for their own good too. But is it really?
For some, yes. For others, no

peaches08 said:

I'm not sure how self regulation could be preferable to TNR...?

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I didn't say it would be. I didn't even say that cats and their environment would/could produce self regulation. Only said it DOES exist and might be looked into. I am wondering if scientist that study population dynamics could shed some light on the feral cat population debate? I am NOT a scientist and only hold a degree in fine arts/ unqualified to speak as an authority. I am only investing to understand. I do considered myself a member of the TNR movement, a reluctant one. And my questioning is important. Better confronted here rather than in a town hall meeting where they are deciding what to do with the ferals. The facts have to be airtight, non emotional to convince people opposed. 

Here is one of the studies I was speaking about-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001128070536.htm

I know cats aren't squirrels!

pocho said:

Well, what i was reading wasn't actually theory but observational data. Like I said, I wasn't necessarily applying it to the feral cat situation but to people using terms like maximum population density without fully understanding them. And yes theory is great. A lot of things start out as theory, then practices then proven fact. TNR perhaps was a theory before practice at one point before considered 'fact' by some later. I have read many similiar studies to the ones you sent and am convinced TNR does work better than TE. But thankyou I will read these too.


My main point is also educating people. That is how change happens ofcourse. I think the science of population dynamics could help. The hysteria surrounding the number of cats and the mad rush to fix the perceived problem by both sides could be tempered a bit. The population will not grow without cease until they take over the world and no birds are left:catguy:


again I will use a Tabor quote-

Because the cat is now the number one companion animal in the U.S. and in the U.K., our society is forgetful that this is a recent role. Around 4.000 years ago in ancient Egypt, cats made their way into homes from the wild. In the 1500s, only the most daring would admit to liking a cat. Even by the 1800s, cats were "still stigmatized by the taint of witchcraft, which had left residual antipathy and antagonism towards cats," says Tabor in Understanding Cats.
Since that time a shift has occurred. Attitudes have evolved (especially in the U.S. and U.K.) toward cats as companion animals, including acknowledgment of the humane treatment that is their right. Humane groups in the U.S. hold the theory that all cats, whatever their circumstances, are better off indoors in a traditional home environment.
Because of this shift in perception, cats are now the victims of new stigmas equally as serious as those under which they lived during medieval times. They are now seen as killers, devastators of wildlife, spreaders of deadly disease, and polluters of the environment (are cats the unfortunate mirror we are now holding up to ourselves?). Cats are killed daily by the thousands because of these perceptions-shades of the Dark Ages-but with the salve to our collective conscience that it is for their own good. And keeping all of them exclusively indoors is for their own good too. But is it really?
For some, yes. For others, no

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I beg your pardon? "People that use terms like maximum population density without fully understanding them"?

Good luck at your town hall meeting.