population stabilization

" In terms of colonies, even if large, that are not causing any harm, such as the one studied by Jane Dards at Portsmouth dockyard, then as she suggests they might as well be left alone. The colony number will stabilize between certain levels depending on such factors as availability of food"

The Wildlife of the domestic cat by Roger Tabor

Looks like population stabilization can and does happen?! 

I don't think it is as simple as that. I think a number of factors are involved.
Yeah, food is a large part of stabilization, perhaps the most important factor. When food becomes scarcer, the older cats (older in so far as being in the colony the longest) will chase away the new cats. My colony was at its largest 10 (apartments); I moved a year ago, now the colony is around four. They are fed four times a week, once a day and they have access to many trash dumpsters (i.e., food).
And this number was after I TNRd around 35 cats in 2.5 years (roughly 40% were at one time someone's pet; 60% feral).
Depending on any number of factors when people move out they leave their cats behind (rarely, dogs). Most of these cats are not spayed/neutered, and the females will get pregnant very quickly. They are reasonably healthy and the kittens will survive. To produce more cats. Unless a TNR program is in place, the area will be overrun by cats.
If the colony is large, other people will complain (especially if a TNR program isn't in place); Animal Control will step in and trap/catch (and, kill) as many cats as they can.

But I think the greater issue is: why. Why let a colony get this big? Why hasn't a TNR program be put in place? Why do humans treat animals so cavalier?

I'd also like to add to Ritz's comment that a TNR program will cut down on a lot of suffering. The colony numbers will stabilize depending on the amount of food available, but this doesn't mean that once the cat population has reached the maximum number that can survive on that amount of food the cats will stop breeding. It means that more kittens will be born and then abandoned by mothers who can't find enough food and that more cats will starve to death. Or that starving cats will migrate out of the area looking for more food and risk being killed on roads or injured in fights with other feral cat colonies.

Neutering and spaying also means less fighting between the males, less chance of injury to the the females during mating, less chance of diseases such as FIV being spread.

Better to have a small population of healthy, well fed cats then a large population of half starved ones, surely?

Every ecosystem has a maximum density. The death and disease of it isn't pretty, so the kindest thing we can do is TNR.

Here is another interesting fact from Tabor-

"Totally neutering of all feral cats at a site may in the long term be almost as bad as killing them all. It could mean delaying the time until the cats naturally die, and new strays enter to fill the vacuum. If the colony is a long term established family group it would be better to keep a few intact to perpetuate that close family line with its social bonds longer than one generation. Most successful biological control depends upon a population continuing at a low level rather than total eradication..."

Fascinating. He then goes on to explain why overfeeding (guilty) can be such a problem and how the 'cat ladies' hold an important key. I have only skimmed over the replies from today on the forum. Like i said I am educating myself for the sake of these cats. I see them as equal in rights to this earth and their God given natures. Just jumping on the bandwagon without true consideration and key questions answered would be irresponsible and careless. It is a serious thing to have an animals ovaries removed. Unfortunately an aggressive TNR group is bullying and setting up feeding stations preparing to force their way without even talking to me or others that have cared for these cats for years. Can't be good for the movement.

Alittle background on my indoor cats. Which btw, want me off this computer and catsite! I have two and live in a two bedroom apt second floor. like many I knew nothing about cats and now am learning. My first Lucy is from Ohio. She was born under the steps of my ex fiances mother's house. Her and her litter mates and mom hung out there in a garage. They could come and go and food was provided. She knows hunting and freedom. She was picked for me because of her skills and her tenacious possesive ways over prey. I actually don't even know if she was taken before she was totally weaned. To this day she struggles being only indoors. She as strange nervous habits, rippling back, anxious... and tries to escape often. Her chattering at birds from window is painful to witness. It is extremely intense and like something I havent witnessed before. She is frustrated without a doubt. In my small apt I have a total of 11 cat tree all with sesal rope for climbing to ceiling. They are fed raw and I play with them both atleast 15 mins a day. Still I see Lucy suffers from not being able to go outside. She knows what she is missing. My second cat Pocho is more mild. He was brought straight to the pound apparently and knows nothing of a real cats life. Totally different personalities. Sometimes I feel selfish when I think about Lucy. Like she is my prisoner for my companionship needs and does not benefit equally. So you see I cherish the ferals and there freedom. Sometimes there is a trade, security in exchange for freedom. Some cats this is good for some not. Feral are free. That is why I take great consideration in cutting out ovaries and testes. That is theirs and how they were made to live. 

like I have stated in my previous postings, I have lived here since 2005 and fed for last two. i haven't seen a population explosion. I am looking for answers to this beyond biased TNR groups. perhaps they have just leveled off.

Yes Norachan but your statistics are not manifesting her in my situation. That is why I am sitting on the fence.

Peaches there is conflicting data on that. Everything you have taken as true might not be completely accurate.  

pocho said:

Peaches there is conflicting data on that. Everything you have taken as true might not be completely accurate.  

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You do not believe that there is a maximum density to every ecosystem? Wow.

What I believe in is doing research on matters. There most likely can be area of maximum population density but that might not indicate a total overall population problem. My situation here in numbers seems to be about the same as it always has. I am sorry that conflicts with your believes.

pocho said:

What I believe in is doing research on matters. There most likely can be area of maximum population density but that might not indicate a total overall population problem. My situation here in numbers seems to be about the same as it always has. I am sorry that conflicts with your believes.

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Population stabilization occurs due to maximum density. And I didn't say that your area was at maximum density. If you do not want to participate in TNR, then don't.

please dont get frustrated because I am investigating all sides of the matter. Did you know about leaving some cats intact being a good thing for a TNR colony? something to consider. Tabor has spent his whole life studying cats all over the whole and is the first to document and bring to light the vacuum effect. And it looks like I won't be participating in the TNR because they have completely taken over. I am sure babies will be taken from mothers and siblings torn apart for their best interest. People should educate themselves on feline social structure better before they go about their mission. If they would have been more respectful I could have given them so much info on each individual cat....unfortunate militian approach

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say people should have been more respectful, "militian" approach (what is that?), and etc. Are you having a problem with your neighbors?

And Roger Tabor wrote that book in 1985, and some of what he writes, the quotes you've used, are speculation. I have the book right here.

Perhaps unfortunately, there are many people that do not feel cats belong outside. It is FAR more difficult in the U.S. in many communities to get ANY support for TNR. People want the cats removed and killed. In the U.K., there is (generally) a long, historical affection for cats. Larry catching a mouse makes headline news. :lol3:

Our bird conservancies have a very very different approach. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds doesn't believe that cats are killing off bird populations: the American Bird Conservancy is on a witch hunt, supporting bunk "research" to provide scary, hugely inflated numbers of what vicious killers cats are. Yet on gaming farms in the UK, when feral cat populations grow out of control, hundreds are shot. This is also discussed in Roger Tabor's book.

So the approach to TNR in 2013 may be very different than anything Roger Tabor ever envisioned in the 1970s, when he did most of this observation.

Here in the U.S., the goal is to get ALL of the adults sterilized, and ALL of the kittens young enough to be socialized removed, and placed in loving homes.

Having participated in this for over a decade, I see nothing wrong with it. We have a stable core of cats in our colony, and some rotate around the edges. It is not based on family groups, but they figure it out.

I'm sorry that your colony is being upset. But when cats are left to breed.... in this day and age, with the heated debates between cat lovers and bird lovers, there's really not much to discuss. The most effective compromise is sterilization. At least they're not being removed and killed. That happens all too often to people here.

pocho said:

 
Yes Norachan but your statistics are not manifesting her in my situation. That is why I am sitting on the fence.

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Do you mean that  your colony population hasn't increased since you've been feeding them? What has happened to prevent that?

Norachan said:

 
Do you mean that  your colony population hasn't increased since you've been feeding them? What has happened to prevent that?

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I don't know. That is why i have all these questions. I am not seeing what is considered typical here. The predominate answer is because I don't see them all due to their hiding nature and I don't see sickness for the same reason. But I have been here since 2005 and it seems to me something would manifest in what I do see, what is not hidden. Also, the cast of main characters change. There is a main area of activity where litters happen and I don't think I can recall seeing any one cat's presence in the complex over two years? 

If the unfixed male has such a large roaming area could it be better to just fix the females for an area?

LDG said:

And Roger Tabor wrote that book in 1985, and some of what he writes, the quotes you've used, are speculation. I have the book right here.

Perhaps unfortunately, there are many people that do not feel cats belong outside. It is FAR more difficult in the U.S. in many communities to get ANY support for TNR. People want the cats removed and killed. In the U.K., there is (generally) a long, historical affection for cats. Larry catching a mouse makes headline news.

Our bird conservancies have a very very different approach. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds doesn't believe that cats are killing off bird populations: the American Bird Conservancy is on a witch hunt, supporting bunk "research" to provide scary, hugely inflated numbers of what vicious killers cats are. Yet on gaming farms in the UK, when feral cat populations grow out of control, hundreds are shot. This is also discussed in Roger Tabor's book.

So the approach to TNR in 2013 may be very different than anything Roger Tabor ever envisioned in the 1970s, when he did most of this observation.

Here in the U.S., the goal is to get ALL of the adults sterilized, and ALL of the kittens young enough to be socialized removed, and placed in loving homes.

Having participated in this for over a decade, I see nothing wrong with it. We have a stable core of cats in our colony, and some rotate around the edges. It is not based on family groups, but they figure it out.

I'm sorry that your colony is being upset. But when cats are left to breed.... in this day and age, with the heated debates between cat lovers and bird lovers, there's really not much to discuss. The most effective compromise is sterilization. At least they're not being removed and killed. That happens all too often to people here.

Click to expand...

LDG said:

And Roger Tabor wrote that book in 1985, and some of what he writes, the quotes you've used, are speculation. I have the book right here.

Perhaps unfortunately, there are many people that do not feel cats belong outside. It is FAR more difficult in the U.S. in many communities to get ANY support for TNR. People want the cats removed and killed. In the U.K., there is (generally) a long, historical affection for cats. Larry catching a mouse makes headline news.

Our bird conservancies have a very very different approach. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds doesn't believe that cats are killing off bird populations: the American Bird Conservancy is on a witch hunt, supporting bunk "research" to provide scary, hugely inflated numbers of what vicious killers cats are. Yet on gaming farms in the UK, when feral cat populations grow out of control, hundreds are shot. This is also discussed in Roger Tabor's book.

So the approach to TNR in 2013 may be very different than anything Roger Tabor ever envisioned in the 1970s, when he did most of this observation.

Here in the U.S., the goal is to get ALL of the adults sterilized, and ALL of the kittens young enough to be socialized removed, and placed in loving homes.

Having participated in this for over a decade, I see nothing wrong with it. We have a stable core of cats in our colony, and some rotate around the edges. It is not based on family groups, but they figure it out.

I'm sorry that your colony is being upset. But when cats are left to breed.... in this day and age, with the heated debates between cat lovers and bird lovers, there's really not much to discuss. The most effective compromise is sterilization. At least they're not being removed and killed. That happens all too often to people here.

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I brought up that study because I basically have been told by tnr stabilization doesnt exist. Again, in another thread I have clearly stated I was most likely going to get these cats fixed. For no other reason than people. People havng problems with cats not the cats having a problem. Where I live there seems to be a pretty layed back attitude. But I was watching for hostility from people that see them as invasive and destructive to others that see them as homeless victims.

Just fed the cats... I am slowly going to cut back on the amount, not sure? Side note, I saw adolescence(last spring babies)  trying to nurse off of a female that isn't their mother and this is after they ate my food. ?

I will think about all that has been said and sort through, apply to my situation, thankyou. My main questions have only been- Can what I see here in this individual situation just be a reflection of what the environment can handle? If the environment can handle it without detriment what is the problem?  How much of overpopulation is only perception on peoples behalf? For instance, if my perspective was that outside cats were homeless I would see a horrifying problem.... I don't though. Are TNR statistics applicable to every individual situation? And can they be completely trusted considering it is part of a campaign, which I do see as overall a very good thing but politics are inherent influencing data from both sides.

I am not from the viewpoint cats have a better quality of life if confined indoors and see a lot of  painful scenarios of indoor pets locked up in these small apartment with ignorant owners. Here, the luckier are the outside cats. On that note, I am attaching a beautiful clip of what I see as the perfect harmony between cat and people living together. The cats live along side the people not as pets. People's perspectives have roots in their ideal visions. I hope you find this village clip as beautiful. I am not implying it is attainable only we could help cats better if we adopted a little more of these peoples attitude.

pocho said:

 
I don't know. That is why i have all these questions. I am not seeing what is considered typical here. The predominate answer is because I don't see them all due to their hiding nature and I don't see sickness for the same reason. But I have been here since 2005 and it seems to me something would manifest in what I do see, what is not hidden. Also, the cast of main characters change. There is a main area of activity where litters happen and I don't think I can recall seeing any one cat's presence in the complex over two years? 

If the unfixed male has such a large roaming area could it be better to just fix the females for an area?

Click to expand...

I've been taking care of a colony for about 4 years now. Actually the colony was quite well established when I moved here, my neighbours tell me they've been leaving food out for the cats for at least ten years. I see the same cats every year, adult females that were here when I first moved in are still here. The original "Alpha Male" was overthrown about two years ago, other young males disappeared when they were about a year old. (One of them I still see a couple of miles from here.) but apart from that it seems to be the same faces and their surviving kittens.

It's strange that you have such a high turnover of cats, especially if there is a regular food source for them. Is there a high level of predation perhaps? Do you have raccoons, foxes, large hawks anything that might be responsible for the cats to disappear?

I've been fixing mainly the females in this area, although the three males kittens I took in have all been neutered. The reason I've been fixing the females is that there are no TNR programs or animal charities in Japan, so I've had to do it by myself. As I have a limited budget I decided the females were a priority. However, with a large feral cat population it does seem a bit pointless to get the current tom cat neutered. If there are still intact females in the area he'd soon be replaced and there are advantages to having a tom cat that is tame enough to be picked up and petted.

Japan? I am sitting here right now eating natto for breakfast. Love the stuff!

My apt complex is linked to other complexes by fences and bordered on one side with woods. In those woods along side fence by dumpsters is a hot spot of litter raising. The queen changes as if  they rotate the spot. For instance last springs litter's Mom I now meet way on the other side of complex, her litter remains there, except for some males that are now starting to move on, leaving. A new queen is there (the one I mentioned trying to be suckled by adolescent that is not hers this morning). There are raccoons, skunks, possum. They all enjoy the dumpsters and I actually have seen them, including cats, congregate around kibble people leave out and wait for their turn. Skunks and Racoons go first, then possum, then the cats. But they sit there together. I am pretty sure if I wanted I could build a relationship with the raccoons through food. They make eye contact and are smart and learn who you are...But yes there is predation. Of last springs cats( I gauge and identify by litters) there was eight. I now only see three. One is the new queen, one I meet on other side of complex, one a male that comes to feed with new litter. Of those three only the new queen can be seen during the day. Many of these cats prefer night. The cats previous to what I describe I see 0. I asked about males because i assume they are finding sustainable environments elsewhere. 

I do notice another strange behavior. I don't know what it means, if it is related to just this one cats ranking or a behaviour pattern that happen in general. The adolescents from spring are becoming more and more pushy with the new queen. They are not hers but I noticed when younger they would follow her around. Thought she was showing them the ropes. Now I see when I lay down food they want whatever food she has even though there is plenty elsewhere. When she was pregnant she would strike at them. Now she is passive and is allowing herself to be pushed about. This morning I literally picked one of them up and blocked them but they wouldnt stop. She then went to just drink some water and I see the most aggressive in this behaviour try to nurse her? What does that mean? Is that why the females move on too? The cats are looking healthy, infact I might cut back on food because some look even chubby. Many feed them. The TNR people have set up feeding stations of their own but they won't tell me when they plan to trap. but that is another story.

Maybe racoons are killing them? Maybe a neighboring complex is showing these signs of overpopulation?