Pregnant cat- but calling/on heat???

Hi,

Rosie (according to the vet feeling her tummy) is about 2 weeks off giving birth. Her nipples haen't changed, but her shape most definitely has!

However, the daddy cat (Rex) started hasslling her to go on heat a couple of days ago,, and now she has..........

So a) what is going on here??????

and

     b) is it possible that she is having a 'phantom' pregnancy????

I'm mystified!! (Rosie is Burmese, and Rex is Tonkinese).

Please help anyone that has any knowledge at all.....

Cathi x

Phantom pregnancies arent that unusual, but if she was at a knowleable vet and he deemed it was two weeks left - he probably felt the kittens move.

They may have heat alike behavior during the pregnancy.  sometimes they even may be in heat, as it is not unheard off they have two different litters simultaneously, about tree weeks apart.

Breeders do seldom see it, as they usually know when the matings are, but owners of moggies do see it sometimes.

Here, I would recommend you to separate your stud.  Anyways, its time to give your Mom her own chambers, where she is unstressed.

Good luck!

A  minority of queens do have symptoms of heat during pregnancy.   I have heard it is around 10%.   ( In fact some cats have even bred again and carry 2 litters of different ages at the same time,  but that is pretty uncommon.     Usually even if they do have an estrus cycle while pregnant,  and mate at that time,  they're less likely   to actually get pregnant. )   I still would not want to take a chance of it!

 However,   it IS also possible that she may have had a  "false pregnancy" / "pseudopregnancy" ,   where the cat ovulates but the eggs are not fertilized.    A false pregnancy often does seem to last about 6 or 7 weeks.   

  I would not be thinking it's a false pregnancy since your vet says she is pregnant,  except that it just seems it would be unusual for her nipples to be totally flat if she is pregnant.   Did the nipples pink up at all?   

Have you felt any kittens moving?  

 If you really want to know for sure , you can get an ultrasound or radiograph.

Re Rex hassling her to go on heat , probably Rex noticed she was in proestrus ,  a period of a day or two before estrus when the tom can smell she is going in heat, but she is not yet receptive. 

 Anyway, I do agree with Stefan  that it would be a good idea to start to keep Rosie in a separate room that will be the nursery.  You are going to need to keep Rex away from her once she has the kittens because a cat can definitely get pregnant  even when she has recently had kittens. And that would not be good for her or the kittens.     also she needs a calm, quiet place where she is not stressed.     

Do you have a breeding mentor & fellow members of a breed club etc. that you can learn from?

Thanks so much for your replies folks- I'm really feeling alone with this one .

I'm not involved with any mentors/cat clubs or anything - I've had Burmese and Abyssinian cats all of my life, and for the past 3 years have also been actively involved in kitten/cat rescue and re-homing (after they are desexed, microchipped and vaccinated!)- cat lovers are cat lovers .

My Abyssinian that I had for 17 years had 3 litters- all being unplanned, as she managed to get pregnant without me knowing until almost delivery time (she only had 3 in each litter).

This is the first time that I have 'planned' a pregnancy (for either me or a cat!) and it is essentially because I really do want to become a breeder, but over here (Australia- Victoria), that means that you have to go to cat shows (which I hate) and all of the people that I have met so far over the years have been very "upper class snobs", which has put me off being involved.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand....... Rex spent the past 3 days with his nose up Rosie's tail, and now she is being very receptive, except, like earlier, he doesn't seem to know what he is supposed to do........ (that it why I was so surprised when she was pregnant).

My vet couldn't feel any individual kittens (on Wednesday) but said she could feel a "very pregnant belly" and offered to do an x-ray so that I had some idea of how many she was having, as she is quite small.

So I am a) unsure if it is just Rex that has set her off now ,  or b) she hasn't actually been pregnant at all???

She has her 'safe place' in a box (that she chose) in my room, where she had been spending lots of time until today......

Rex , as far as I have been able to observe, hasn't worked out exactly what to do........

I just really hope that if she is pregnant, this is not going to upset the pregnancy...............

They had been successfully totally separated for about the past week until the past 3 days when they have been looking out for each other.....

It has me quite confused...........

Observe, we do NOT recommend [X-rays] during pregnancies, just to look and see.

Vets tend often to propose X-rays (and take payment for it!) - probably not because they think it is really the safest and best, but  just becuase they do have the gears and can offer this examination...

X-ray may be done during pregnancy if desperate to save lives,  but shouldnt  just for curiosity.   Dangerous.

Ultrasound or similiar is better and safer, and this is what we recommend (and Maew did mentioned).  Or palpation which is enough in many cases.

Good luck!

Hi Stefan,

That is why I didn't get the xray done- if it's dangerous to humans, why offer it to a cat? Seemed odd. Although my vet is usually really good about keeping costs down for me. I'm glad that I said 'no' - even though she was more concerned with trying to check whether a c-section may become an issue when she starts to deliver..

Apparently it is too hard to see them all on ultrasound (sonograph I think  it's called over in the US) at this stage.

As Rosie is still calling today, (it's Sunday here) I'm not sure what to think.

Thanks  heaps

In North America,  vets often do X rays of pregnant dogs and cats during late gestation.    Earlier in the pregnancy it certainly should not be done because it can harm the embryos/  fetuses.   Most vets here don't seem to think it is risky in the last 3 weeks.

I  would not do it as a routine thing  . but I can see a few situations where it could be useful-- like if there were a worry that the dam might be too small & ktitens too big for a natural birth,  then one might do radiographs since that is better for comparing the size of the skulls to the size of the dam's pelvis.   It's also better for estimating the number.   or it can be a quick way to make sure she is done with the litter, if there is some concern about that.

  Ultrasound ( that's what we do call the procedure,  but the image generated from it is called a "sonogram",  so it might be that some people use the terms interchangeably.  )  is better at telling the viability of the fetuses.  and of course it can safely be done earlier so can be used to confirm pregnancy sooner.    In some ways it can also give more clues to the gestational age based on developmental stages.   

Here is a link to a brief comparison written by a veterinarian with a veterinary college,  who is also a dog breeder. http://www.welshcorgi.com/lists/archive2.html

Thanks meaw,

I must admit that I would really like to become a breeder in the 'traditional' way- but one of the big problems that I face is that I live about an hour and a half away from Melbourne in regional Victoria, and that is where most of the show are. I can't get there because I have Multiple Sclerosis, and due to driving fatiguing me, I only drive around town now :-(. (not bad for 25 years though!!).

I have been hoping to find someone on line who could advise me- except that Rag Doll cats are most certainly the most popular breed at the moment, and not many burmese breeders that I can find.

Fortunately with my years with cats and kittens I have a great knowledge base (plus I am a nurse, whicch can come in handy!!), however these things that I am bringing up I have not come across before......

Rosie now has my room all to herself, as even the other male cat and female cat (both neutered) were trying to fight with her.........

Hugs from afar

Cuz

Hi Cuz....   Good to hear that Rosie has her own quarters now.    Try to spend some quality time with her daily if she wants your company.  

Re showi ng....  Is there anyone who could take you to shows and help out?   I do know some disabled people who have shown.  In fact there is a TICA regional director who has some mobility problem ( I am not sure what condition she has, but she gets around on a motorized scooter. I guess she must have someone to help her out with moving cats and show supplies )

Or I wonder if you might be able to work in cooperation with other Burmese breeders & fanciers and someone else could do most of the showing for you.    I have a friend who works in partnership with someone else who does not show a lot ( but has shown some),   My friend doesn't breed  but shows them when they are young.  She has shown some young whole males who didn't spray.  and shows alters.   They had the top Burmese in Championship in TICA last season.  ( RW SGC Suigeneris Chunkymonky of Ringapurr).   He now went to a breeder in California who has been working with the import line ( Breeders are importing some Suphalak  (Burmese & Tonkinese) cats from  Thailand and using them to expand the gene pool.  (So these are cats like  Wong Mau,  the original foundation cat of the Burmese breed in the West) .   This is a very positive development since in practice the Burmese probably has the least genetic diversity of any of the established cat breeds.  ( I think on paper they are number 2 behind the Singapura.  but in practice the Burmese has further split into different groups  -- not just the North American ones being different from the rest of the world,  but the North American ones are split in 2 somewhat different types,  called (unofficially) Contemporary and Traditional.   

One problem is that if they are concerned you can't keep the cats from getting out and mating randomly, other breeders are not going to want to entrust you with breeding cats.  You have mentioned your Aby having 3 accidental pregnancies..  (I still don't understand why this cat was pregnant 3 times with accidental litters.   Why not get her spayed after that first litter?  If a cat isn't meant to be part of a responsible breeding program , they need to just be altered and be "just" a pet.)    

But it sounds like it hasn't happened for 15 years or so,  and hopefully you have learned since then and changed how you manage your cats.  

  I can see that having MS could maybe make it harder to corral the cats and keep breeding cats from slipping out.     I am not saying it is impossible for someone with MS to find a way to do this successfully,  but  you definitely don't want to take any chance on your Rosie getting out and getting pregnant again too soon.   If you are going to breed, the focus needs to be on preserving a breed.   you don't want to stress her body with additional unplanned pregnancies and the possibility of getting a disease from some stray tom.   And being involved in rescue in recent years , I am sure you don't want to be adding more moggies to the population when there are many already needing homes.

So you need to have some way to make sure that does not happen.

BTW speaking of breeders and disabilities,  I also have a friend who breeds who is blind and has shown several times and has a few cats with titles,  and one cat she sold to someone else went on to a quite successful show career.  She does have a daughter who helps some with the births ,  and a mentor who has helped tell the colors.   As far as keeping her breeding cats in,   she makes sure there are 2 doors between them and outside.    

have you been in touch with these people?    http://www.burmese.asn.au/index.php?page=index

I have some sad news about Rosie's kittens- at some point in the past 10 days she has lost them. The vet- who I really trust- got her associate for a second opinion, and neither could feel any kittens any more. They did an x-ray to confirm, and she definitely has 'lost' them.

This does explain why she is 'on heat' again though........  My vet was quite confident that it wouldn't be a problem if she fell pregnant again so quickly, so I am leaving her and Rex together now......

On the slightly different topic of cats getting out etc......  We finished the completely sealed outdoor run last night!! All of the cats (except Rex and Rosie0 spent the whole day out there today, alternating between the sun and the shade...... and they were very grumpy when it was time to come in for bed!!!

It isn't possible for any of the cats to get out of the house or, now, the run. Neither Rex or Rosie have explored 'the great outdoors' on their own - and won't be doing so!! they will be allowed into the run, naturally :-)

I need to find a Burmese breeders group in Victoria, as New South Wales is about a 14 hour drive from here!! I will have a bit of a hunt around when I get a chance.

Holly (my Abby) had created a nice little escape hatch in our old house (16 years ago) that I couldn't find until we were moving- it was a tiny hole in a fly screen that I think she only used the 3 times she got pregnant!! I certainly never ever noticed her being on heat, so she was determined about it! It was planned that she had one litter with my Mum's brown Burmese, but as she didn't ever show outward i signs of  being on heat, this never happened (I wasn't going to risk a 4th litter ;-)). There is absolutely n escape from here for any of them- so that is all good, and the outdoor run is even better for their health too.

Well, I'm off to mourn the babies I never met, and hopefully get some sleep tonight..........

I'm sorry she lost the kittens.       If she was within 2 or 3 weeks of delivery, that is too late for reabsorption , so she must have expelled the fetuses.     It may be she consumed them which sounds awful but they sometimes do it;  it is instinct,  to avoid attracting predators that might kill any surviving kittens. ( in this case there weren't any but sometimes there are still viable kittens.)

 Did the vet  feel sure from looking at the X-rays that there was no retained placenta or fetal tissue that could cause an infection?  

I do agree that  it wouldn't be bad for her  to repeat the breeding soon if she is healthy and in excellent condition.

Of course if the miscarriage may have been due to some illness,   that of course  should be treated first  so that the same thing doesn't happen again and so she doesn't get worse.    

Sometimes one never finds out what caused a cat to abort.  In some cases it can be due to congenital abnormalities.   Sometimes can be infection.  sometimes can be a hormonal imbalance.     or exposure to toxins during the pregnancy. etc.

 I would  do a  complete blood count to rule out an infectious cause.    and a blood chem panel to assess overall health of the queen.

 If there were any vaginal discharge you could have a culture done to try to identify a bacterial infection.

 I suppose she is  negative for FeLV and FIV?  

Was she given any drugs or vaccines while pregnant?

Was she up to date on her vaccines before breeding?  

Panleukopenia ( sometimes called other names like "feline distemper" or "feline infectiious enteritis"  --- not to be confused with feline infectious peritonitis)  can cause pregnancy loss .   The queen may not necessarily show symptoms of illness herself ; she might have enough antibodies to protect herself but not enough to protect the unborn kittens.

 some other  like upper respiratory infections for example if the queen had an outbreak of Feline Herpesvirus,  can cause spontaneous abortion.

You may find this overview helpful  ( about pregnancy loss in cats)    http://media.johnwiley.com.au/product_data/excerpt/38/08138076/0813807638-1.pdf

  I suppose there is also a small chance it was a false pregnancy after all .   It wouldn't be the first time someone has made a mistake in palpating and mixed up the contents of the colon with the contents of the uterus.  But if this is an experienced vet that you trust,  I doubt they would have been confused .

Re the Burmese breed clubs,  I did see a mention of a  Burmese Cat Society of Victoria.  it may be very small though.       But   you don't have to only join a club that is right where you are.   The one I linked, even if they are more affiliated with NSW ,  sounds like it might be also for a wider area since it is called Burmese Cat Club of Australasia."   

I  joined an international breed club where the closest other member is 6 hours away.   Cat breeds are often not very numerous and in some breeds there may not be a lot of people in one place.    You may be able to communicate and learn from other members even if they don't live nearby.   Sometimes clubs have an e-mail list (in some cases via Yahoo groups)  or Facebook group or forum.   

  Some of the first places to start would of course be the breeders of Rosie and Rex.  ( at least I hope this  was planned and agreed on with their breeders and you have full registration with breeding rights!  )

Another thing you can be doing is reading as much as you can to learn about feline husbandry, health and genetics.

 The cat run sounds great . I am sure they will love it!