questions before tnr

denice · Dec 1, 2013

People have or are supposed to have the ability to rationalize and make decisions. We are supposed to have the ability to help those less fortunate. I know many people don't make good decisions and go through life in a very self centered way but not everyone. I am not making a value decision about human life versus other animals just observations. Cats don't rationalize they are ruled completely by instinct and without being altered the instinct to reproduce is very strong. Cats are a small carnivore that was native to a desert environment which means they have a very high reproduction rate. That high reproduction rate is how they survived as a species in a harsh environment. A feral colony in many areas will get very large very quickly.

pocho · Dec 1, 2013

Denice said:
People have or are supposed to have the ability to rationalize and make decisions. We are supposed to have the ability to help those less fortunate. I know many people don't make good decisions and go through life in a very self centered way but not everyone. I am not making a value decision about human life versus other animals just observations. Cats don't rationalize they are ruled completely by instinct and without being altered the instinct to reproduce is very strong. Cats are a small carnivore that was native to a desert environment which means they have a very high reproduction rate. That high reproduction rate is how they survived as a species in a harsh environment. A feral colony in many areas will get very large very quickly.

Yes there are conditions that bring out the worse of what can be considered instincts in animals. And we do have the ability to control those conditions to a degree. Same as in humans, over crowded, poverty ridden conditions bring out the worse of survival 'instincts'. How to put brutal behavior and suffering in perspective is the point being made. I suppose a heavy focus on the negative makes for a picture incomplete.

catwoman707 · Dec 1, 2013

IMO, cats have the instincts as nature gave them, to survive and reproduce.

Our domesticating them has caused an imbalance.

So results in the overpopulation of this animal.

The only way to help 'right' this is by tnr'ing, NOT by killing them off after they are a life, but prevention of growth. Every warm blooded creature deserves to live.

"Maybe groups like PETA are correct then? Better dead than outside? My area will always have a certain percentage of feral no matter how much trapping is done. People leave their pets behind when they move and alot don't get them fixed. I spoke to a woman the other morning who didn't let her female get fixed because she heard the vet then also tears out the nails during operation? She also said her cats has the right to have her babies...many different reasons in people's minds

I have been told fixing the animals will not make them targets of unfixed cats? But how can this be with the behavior you mention? Is fixing these animals making them more 'sitting ducks'? They stay more put with smaller ranging and have no hormones to promote defending....very worrisome"

Every corner of every city of every part of the country will have ferals. It took many many years for this to happen, and would take close to/equal amt of years to undo this.

Vets do NOT declaw when they fix a cat, this is nonsense and illegal.

Fixing males does NOT make them targets, that is not how it works at all.

Take 2 unfixed male cats. Both will fight and fight, even the underdog will continue to be driven by relentless hormones and continue to fight, to mate. This is also the main (I mean by a large majority, perhaps 80%) spreader of fiv/felv.

Take one of the males and neuter him. Once a few weeks have passed, their urine no longer wreaks for marking, their hormones are settling into a sort of a non existent state, their temperament calms, they no longer roam, howl, or fight. They will NOT stand up to the unfixed male, as mating is no longer their goal in life.

Take both males and fix, same thing, but now they are able to co-exist in the SAME colony peacefully. Nothing driving them to fight. The females are the dominating sex at this point, as they are in an all-altered multi cat home.

The males no longer roaming means they are safer too. No longer participating in spreading diseases.

They can live their life in a peaceful existence.

pocho · Dec 1, 2013

I also believe it will be the celebration of Feral life that will hold the TNR movement strong. The beauty of their existence and appreciation of their lives, their unbelievable creative survival tactics, their wisdom, the joy of being a caregiver. Positive statistics that put all the gruesome data and images in a bigger context...When I read the same data being used by pro tnr groups as pro euthanize I feel it cant be the right approach. There are benefits for cats that live outside and benefits for us being around those cats. A big perceptual change must happen. It can. It exists in other cultures. People respond to positive hopeful visions more readily and want to be a part of with less hesitation.

How can the brain process the fact that indeed racoons like eating kittens but vets doing routine tnr neutering will abort unborn kittens? This is a part of a feral life. It will happen, like fleas and fights. Personally I want to promote their lifestyle and help them maintain it. If that means trapping I am prepared. All measures should be taken to give them the best lives possible, the best feral life. I understand the emphasis on them being labeled domesticated gone wild. I understand if we labeled them a wild animal they could be subject to say hunting seasons. At the same time the emphasis on them being homeless victims makes people just as hysterical at the mere site of them.

pocho · Dec 1, 2013

catwoman707 said:
IMO, cats have the instincts as nature gave them, to survive and reproduce.

Our domesticating them has caused an imbalance.

So results in the overpopulation of this animal.

The only way to help 'right' this is by tnr'ing, NOT by killing them off after they are a life, but prevention of growth. Every warm blooded creature deserves to live.

Every corner of every city of every part of the country will have ferals. It took many many years for this to happen, and would take close to/equal amt of years to undo this.

Vets do NOT declaw when they fix a cat, this is nonsense and illegal.

Fixing males does NOT make them targets, that is not how it works at all.

Take 2 unfixed male cats. Both will fight and fight, even the underdog will continue to be driven by relentless hormones and continue to fight, to mate. This is also the main (I mean by a large majority, perhaps 80%) spreader of fiv/felv.

Take one of the males and neuter him. Once a few weeks have passed, their urine no longer wreaks for marking, their hormones are settling into a sort of a non existent state, their temperament calms, they no longer roam, howl, or fight. They will NOT stand up to the unfixed male, as mating is no longer their goal in life.

Take both males and fix, same thing, but now they are able to co-exist in the SAME colony peacefully. Nothing driving them to fight. The females are the dominating sex at this point, as they are in an all-altered multi cat home.

The males no longer roaming means they are safer too. No longer participating in spreading diseases.

They can live their life in a peaceful existence.

I know..You are preaching to the choir. I am more challenging a certain approach to convince people of tnr by using gruesome images, true or not. And the declawing thing is just an example of the mind set I am working with here. People have all kinds of crazy ideas. I have a tnr group here who will hopefully do a broad sweep of the numbers but from there on out I believe it will be me taking cats in one at a time for years..

catwoman707 · Dec 1, 2013

The idea is to minimize as much suffering as possible.

pocho · Dec 1, 2013

catwoman707 said:
The idea is to minimize as much suffering as possible.

Yes, and a real feral, those real wild ones we all know, will suffer if you take that life style away from them. I want to promote the feral life and encourage the feral in them. It will be a real learning experience for me to watch as these cats transition to tnr'd cats. I don't know if I will need to protect them more? I know the ways they will benefit, and looking forward to seeing that. Of course I am concerned also about unexpected disadvantages. The friendly ones are gone, maybe for their benefit maybe not? Does sociability always equate a better life for a cat indoors? Some of them were thriving outside and quite dominant. While others more shy would in no way make it into the adoptable pool. Of those there is a percentage of weaker ones who I believe need more consideration to live outside. So even the selection process of which ones are put back has me nervous. I do know I feel more at ease with the real wild ones. They seem safer in many ways. I am a big part of why so many became so friendly and as you know the more friendly the more possibilty of them coming across a cruel human. So many unresolved questions! That is why I like this forum. It helps me clarify even my own ideas...slowly and to the aggravation of other members, sorry

catwoman707 · Dec 1, 2013

No need to apologize, we all have our own personal views, and are entitled to them

I can tell you care, that is what matters most of all, the best for them.

I see no reason to feel you need to protect them more once tnr'd. They do not lose their ability to survive, they simply lose their drive to mate, which causes so many other problems.

I think you will be quite pleased with the results.

lrosewiles · Dec 1, 2013

As a newcomer I'm a little hesitant to jump in here, but I can report on our experience with TNR of our 3 wild-born kittens (all now happy home cats able to go outside without fear of fighting or mating) and their maybe feral but probably just abandoned mom Patience. I was very worried about the TNR for her, partly because of the difficulty of catching her and getting her to the clinic (my first few attempts had me bleeding profusely from scratches and her freaking out for days) and partly because I knew she would not stay inside for recovery and would be vulnerable. But in the long run we succeeded, I did not use a trap but managed to capture her at feeding with a pair of my husband's heavy duty work gloves and get her into a carrier. After the surgery I was only able to keep her in for a few hours until she went crazy fighting to get out of the carrier, then tried to claw her way out of the insect screen in the bathroom, so I let her out and hoped for the best. She disappeared for a few days but then returned and all went well, she healed very quickly despite being outside - although note it was late summer time.

But the main points about the TNR, stressful though it is, is that before getting her spayed Patience had several occurrences of very nasty bite wounds on her neck from mating as well as deep scratches on her nose and face that have left permanent scars, a badly bitten paw and tail, and several times the fur around her rear end was matted in feces (all likely from fighting and/or mating despite being in the process of weaning her kittens). She was also pregnant again by the time we got her spayed, luckily not far along and they removed the kittens, which I felt a little bad about but it was way too soon for her to have another litter (she was only just gaining weight from the first lot) and no way I could have handled or found homes for yet another batch of kittens. Since being spayed Patience has had no further injuries, has gained weight (probably too much!) and looks clean, healthy and happy. She has an outside shelter which she spends a lot of time in, but also comes inside regularly for short periods to eat and warm up when it's cold and to get some petting. She sits on our kitchen mat and grooms herself and purrs when stroked, even plays a little with some of the kittens' toys, all of which I never saw her doing before being spayed She is still very independent and goes where she wants, never stays inside long, but I feel her quality of life is much better since being spayed. Another plus is we no longer have aggressive tomcats hanging around.

For me it's not so much a matter of overpopulation, although certainly that's a concern, but indeed as said simply improving the life of one cat without taking away her right to be "wild" and independent, but stopping unwanted kittens being born into a hostile world. If our Patience had borne another litter it would have been in frigid weather and they probably would have frozen or starved to death, and her health would have deteriorated.

So, yes do try to get the TNR done if you can. But de-claw, no way, a horrible mutilating thing.

pocho · Dec 2, 2013

Lrosewiles said:
As a newcomer I'm a little hesitant to jump in here, but I can report on our experience with TNR of our 3 wild-born kittens (all now happy home cats able to go outside without fear of fighting or mating) and their maybe feral but probably just abandoned mom Patience. I was very worried about the TNR for her, partly because of the difficulty of catching her and getting her to the clinic (my first few attempts had me bleeding profusely from scratches and her freaking out for days) and partly because I knew she would not stay inside for recovery and would be vulnerable. But in the long run we succeeded, I did not use a trap but managed to capture her at feeding with a pair of my husband's heavy duty work gloves and get her into a carrier. After the surgery I was only able to keep her in for a few hours until she went crazy fighting to get out of the carrier, then tried to claw her way out of the insect screen in the bathroom, so I let her out and hoped for the best. She disappeared for a few days but then returned and all went well, she healed very quickly despite being outside - although note it was late summer time.

But the main points about the TNR, stressful though it is, is that before getting her spayed Patience had several occurrences of very nasty bite wounds on her neck from mating as well as deep scratches on her nose and face that have left permanent scars, a badly bitten paw and tail, and several times the fur around her rear end was matted in feces (all likely from fighting and/or mating despite being in the process of weaning her kittens). She was also pregnant again by the time we got her spayed, luckily not far along and they removed the kittens, which I felt a little bad about but it was way too soon for her to have another litter (she was only just gaining weight from the first lot) and no way I could have handled or found homes for yet another batch of kittens. Since being spayed Patience has had no further injuries, has gained weight (probably too much!) and looks clean, healthy and happy. She has an outside shelter which she spends a lot of time in, but also comes inside regularly for short periods to eat and warm up when it's cold and to get some petting. She sits on our kitchen mat and grooms herself and purrs when stroked, even plays a little with some of the kittens' toys, all of which I never saw her doing before being spayed She is still very independent and goes where she wants, never stays inside long, but I feel her quality of life is much better since being spayed. Another plus is we no longer have aggressive tomcats hanging around.

For me it's not so much a matter of overpopulation, although certainly that's a concern, but indeed as said simply improving the life of one cat without taking away her right to be "wild" and independent, but stopping unwanted kittens being born into a hostile world. If our Patience had borne another litter it would have been in frigid weather and they probably would have frozen or starved to death, and her health would have deteriorated.

So, yes do try to get the TNR done if you can. But de-claw, no way, a horrible mutilating thing.

It is really nice hearing about these kinds of stories, thankyou. If I ever win the lottery I will buy land and have has many ferals as I can. I feel tnr works best on privately owned property where it is completely possible to secure them as outdoor pets of sorts. It is different where I am, in an apt complex bordered by privately owned woods, many complications... The cats have a high turn over rate and seem to go against some of the typical statistics always quoted about unfixed populations. I have many questions because the situation is unique and the scope quite large. I really hope it improves their lives and that population can be stabilized. The suffering from an un-neutered population is always the focus. Because I haven't seen this evident in my population I have the luxury of pondering the possible suffering from taking too much feral out of the feral. ? There seems to be suffering from a lack of security but also suffering from freedom striped. I love feral cats and their lifestyle. If fixing them promotes the feral way I am game.

pocho · Dec 2, 2013

Another tnr question.

Is it normal to lay out tons of kibble daily (not picked up either) for pre-trapping preparation? On most TNR websites I see guidelines always mention picking food up because of other wildlife. The tnr group in my area is leaving tons out. I wrote them about it but no reply, so I thought maybe this is common for more successful trapping?

I was only mildly concerned...But I just read an article on a rabies outbreak in New Mexico traced back to a Tnr colony site. The tnr program was thus halted. I never made the connection. This article said all the food attracted raccoons and skunks who are carriers at a higher rate, they infected cats and cats attacked people.. All because of the food at colony site. ?

I am so worried this group doesnt know what it is doing.

ondine · Dec 2, 2013

Just the opposite. Leaving the food out will mean the cats are not hungry and will have no reason to go into the traps. Plus, all that food will attract other critters. Most TNR projects that fail, fail because the caregivers did not follow the correct procedures (not leaving out food, making sure the cats' vaccinations are up-to-date, etc.)

shadowsrescue · Dec 3, 2013

A great resource on trapping is Alley Cat Allies. They have great videos on exactly how to trap.

Whenever I trap, I do not feed them their nightly meal so that they are hungry the next morning when I usually trap. I have also trapped at night and with held food through out the day.

Some TNR groups, set food out and leave it as they don't have enough man power (volunteers) to feed during the day and then pick up at night. I know of a few organizations here that feed colonies and the food is out 24/7. There are so many cats to mange that they only stop by once a day to refill water and food bowls. The volunteers are more concerned with the cats getting food than if it also attracts other critters.

A few times I have visited Hilton Head where the different plantations have many feral cat colonies. I have seen as many as 20-30 cats. They TNR all of the cats and mark the cats with ear tips. They have some shelters and very large feeding stations. I spoke with one of the volunteers and they put food out once a day and just leave it. They do their best to not put out too much. There are the raccoons, skunks and opossums that make their way to the food bowls too.

pocho · Dec 3, 2013

So I shouldnt be concerned? Or only mildly? I can see around those numbers on my early morning rounds here. I know there are much more..I took to feeding them early morning hours even though it is suggested not to feed them when dark. I felt it best for their protection (from people)..and in the summer had to get very creative to make sure the raccoons and skunks didnt run the cats off. I have seen them all together(skunks, racoons, possum, cats) and take turns but I only wanted to feed the cats. I suppose if anyone, I will be able to tell if the raccons have something/rabies and then I can go pick up their piles of food? At first I was doing that, just throwing out what was left. The group of course saw this as hostile.

questions before tnr

denice

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pocho

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catwoman707

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pocho

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pocho

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catwoman707

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pocho

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catwoman707

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lrosewiles

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pocho

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pocho

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ondine

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shadowsrescue

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pocho

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