questions before tnr

Hello, new to site but searching for answers. First let me state, I am NOT a supporter of trap and euthanize. I have been feeding ferals in my apt complex for over two years and recently put shelters in the bordering woods for the coming winter. I have been reading up on TNR but have questions that need answered before i would even consider. I take the decision of operating and changing a fellow earthling seriously. 

1) What constitutes "overpopulation"? Numbers are not what I am looking for but why those numbers are problems. Personally I see no sickly or starving cats. Many people feed them and have for years and years, way before me. I havent seen an explosion of numbers.

2) Does TNR work when dealing with large areas? These cats roam all over woods and several complexes. The characters of different kitties are constantly changing. when I think one has left the scene I find him way on the other side of complex for example and new ones just appear.

3) does TNR make fixed cats vunerable to unfixed cats? Because it would be impossible to fix all of them all at once and there will always be new ones...Would the TNR'd cats be bullied and at risk?

4) do populations of any species naturally level themselves off according to what environment can offer?

5) Is TNR dangerous for cats in winter months?

6) falls under first question- Should every situation be treated unique?For instance, if there is a cat overpopulation problem on the whole does that mean every small (eco system) should be treated as such? 

I have read alittle of George Tabor and he says feral cats do quite well and live longer and healthier lives than has been reported, some ten years even. He also writes-

Because the cat is now the number one companion animal in the U.S. and in the U.K., our society is forgetful that this is a recent role. Around 4.000 years ago in ancient Egypt, cats made their way into homes from the wild. In the 1500s, only the most daring would admit to liking a cat. Even by the 1800s, cats were "still stigmatized by the taint of witchcraft, which had left residual antipathy and antagonism towards cats," says Tabor in Understanding Cats.
Since that time a shift has occurred. Attitudes have evolved (especially in the U.S. and U.K.) toward cats as companion animals, including acknowledgment of the humane treatment that is their right. Humane groups in the U.S. hold the theory that all cats, whatever their circumstances, are better off indoors in a traditional home environment.
Because of this shift in perception, cats are now the victims of new stigmas equally as serious as those under which they lived during medieval times. They are now seen as killers, devastators of wildlife, spreaders of deadly disease, and polluters of the environment (are cats the unfortunate mirror we are now holding up to ourselves?). Cats are killed daily by the thousands because of these perceptions-shades of the Dark Ages-but with the salve to our collective conscience that it is for their own good. And keeping all of them exclusively indoors is for their own good too. But is it really?
For some, yes. For others, no

So much to consider before making such a decision! I feel I have been threading a fine line of hands off but helping. Cats to me border wild and domestic. I believe they have always relied on humans to a degree but can survive without.

sorry his name is Roger Tabor..

The reasoning behind TNR is simple. Cats left to their own devices will continue to reproduce, which is going to eventually mean suffering. The territory gets overcrowded, forcing cats to establish new territories, expanding the numbers of cats on their own. Some reports say that half of all feral kittens die and they usually die pretty gruesome deaths.

If the cats are fixed, this growth is slowed considerably. It will never stop completely because people will continue to be irresponsible and let their unfixed cats run loose (or worse yet, dump them).

I'll try to answer each of your questions:
1) What constitutes "overpopulation"? Numbers are not what I am looking for but why those numbers are problems. Personally I see no sickly or starving cats. Many people feed them and have for years and years, way before me. I haven't seen an explosion of numbers. I would say overpopulation is when there aren't enough resources to support all the cats. This can mean sick cats but it also means cats will have to leave the original area and seek better territories.
2) Does TNR work when dealing with large areas? These cats roam all over woods and several complexes. The characters of different kitties are constantly changing. when I think one has left the scene I find him way on the other side of complex for example and new ones just appear. The ideal would be to TNR all the cats in an area. This is probably next to impossible but every cat fixed means there is less of a burden on the resources.

3) does TNR make fixed cats vunerable to unfixed cats? NoBecause it would be impossible to fix all of them all at once and there will always be new ones...Would the TNR'd cats be bullied and at risk? No. The unfixed cats may move on, though, looking for love.

4) do populations of any species naturally level themselves off according to what environment can offer? If there isn't enough food/shelter in the wild, whole species die off. This is the reason behind a lot of the environmental movement. Man has impacted the environment to the detriment of a lot of species. With cats, it isn't simply a matter of them being wild animals, though. They are domesticated animals which have reverted to wild behavior. They may have learned to live outside but they are not wild animals.

5) Is TNR dangerous for cats in winter months? Trapping during the winter is tricky because you can't leave cats in traps for long periods of time. That would be dangerous. But if the cat is taken inside as soon as it is trapped, then re-habbed inside, the actual surgery is no more dangerous in winter than any other time of year.

6) falls under first question- Should every situation be treated unique? For instance, if there is a cat overpopulation problem on the whole does that mean every small (eco system) should be treated as such? Every situation should be treated uniquely. Think about it this way - when there is a deer overpopulation in New Jersey, it doesn't mean every deer herd in the country needs culling (which is the way they deal with that situation and which, BTW, doesn't seem to work any better than trap and euthanize does with cats).

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to try and answer your questions. Remember, once they are TNR'd, the cats need continued human support. Just fixing them and letting them go isn't enough. They will still need food and shelter.

I am curious then why say squirrels and raccoons arent considered overpopulated? How much of the over population problem is perception? If I thought the cats I see outside as homeless and miserable I wouldnt even question it. What I see is a self domesticated animal choosing to live on our human borders. The cats in Egypt developed this behaviour when farming and grain storage came about. They killed off rodents and a deal was struck, an alliance between humans and cats. The statistics on horrible short lives is possibly incorrect or not applicable to every individual situation.

I am not arguing but probing to clarify. I think my shelters are nice for the kitties but have seen all the amazing things they have found for shelter too.

Again, squirrels and raccoons are actually wild animals.  Eons ago, we made a pact with cats - they would keep the vermin down and we would provide food and shelter (and companionship in some cases).  Allowing them to exist in the wild, in my mind, breaks that pact.

You say you do not see sick or miserable cats.  There are a number of reasons for that.  They can't reveal their weaknesses or illnesses or the predators would take advantage.  Feral cats are excellent at hiding illness and at just plain keeping low profiles.  Even pet cats are masters at hiding their weaknesses.  You probably don't see a third of the cats out there.

In some ways, I can compare feral cats to homeless humans.  They may not realize they need help, they may not want help and they become quite adept at living without homes, but they are still not in a good place.  They still need our support.

The wild for ferals isnt actually wild. It is in old sheds abandoned lots with unused cars, trees fields, dumpsters, birds rats mice rabbits, nice women who put down food and some mean people they learn to run from. I have heard the view that they are domesticated reverting back to wild also heard experts say they all hold the same genes has their far forgotten wild ancestor. So if traced back their is always wild before domestication (logic)...I am hesitant to equate them with homeless humans. I have learned so much from them and the way they survive. They seem vibrant free spirited savy. In the end, what I see as ideal is basically the barn cat life. I see my indoor cats as anxious and unfulfilled although I try to make up for the fact they dont feel the outside and cant hunt.

But I am getting off the subject. I simply cant believe all the contrary statistics and 'facts' I have come up with on my TNR research. I think TNR is humane compared to the savage trap and kill, ofcourse. But are all the facts more about convincing people in power to change policies? And in that endless aurgument is there another way to look at it? Eitherway, I am monitoring situation here. I am not in a hurry. But if I saw some warning signs it would be better. Eventually I would see some sign of too many cats?  

For me, the main reason for spay/neuter of free-roaming cats is to help them out personally. The females really don't do well being pregnant all the time (most wild animals, except for major prey animals like rabbits and mice have one litter a year but cats, for some reason, have 2-3 a year)(probably you've noticed that the majority of your ferals are tomcats), and neutering the boys keep fighting down a bit. I've never seen a healthy-looking unspayed female farm cat, honestly. I think the males chew them up during mating season, besides the stress and demands of pregnancy, birthing, and nursing. Anyway, I think spayed females are happier. I might be projecting a bit there though :tongue2:.

I see in my particular situation I have healthy females that rotate a certain area/sweet spot when pregnant and nursing that litter. It must be a secure place that offers what they need. Then I first see at a certain time of growth the males of that litter moving on..If moving on is why it doesnt look like overpopulation then my question is- So they move on and reproduce, that means they found an environment that can sustain. Where is the problem? If they are sick but they hide it. How much of their mortality rate is just natural? For instance, Lamas spontaneously abort at a high rate. So much so the native people have used these remains in religious ceremonies forever. That rate doesnt mean lamas are overpopulated. If Tnr kitties are not vunerable to unfixed cats then why are some scientist promoting altering(hysterectomy) instead with one bonus being the fixed cats wont be kicked off territory by unfixed cats because sex hormones will still be active. A big part of any animals life is reproducing. In cats that means fighting, competing, some babies dieing...who am I to say I think their lives would be better if I neuter them. I dont by any means want any living animal to suffer but where is the line drawn as far as interfering with something that could be considered natural? Also remember, I am not talking about a backyard in a neighborhood where I am attracting every feral around through food pissing everyone off. These cats are their regardless because of dumpsters the rodents urban areas attract and the avaiiable woods. I love the TNR movement because it could quite possibly stop these monsters that just round up cats and kill them. It is not our right to do that but in my situation I question my right to round them up and choose for them that it is better for them not to reproduce and having them cut into...Some say they have miserable painful horrible lives, I am not seeing that. Some sites say they carry disease some sites say they carry no more disease than indoor cats. Some sites say they live short lives some say No they live long good lives and have healthier immune systems. I could go on and on about the data contradictions. So I said well I will just look at my particular situation since it seems people are coming up with anything to promote their believes.

I think the main argument for population control is that they aren't native to North America. So as unnatural predators for this continent, they may be having an unnatural effect on the native wildlife. And so people want fewer of them.

It's also worth noting that if you don't want to interfere with natural processes, feeding them does have an unnatural effect on the population. Well-fed animals have much higher birth rates.

As for some of the original questions, I've found that neutered males seem to enjoy a kind of "neutral" status. The toms ignore him because he's not a threat to their mating rights, and the females befriend him because he's not a rival like the other females but also not always wanting to mate. But they don't get bullied by the intact cats. And TNR is actually a bit safer in the colder months (not super cold like January, but earlier like October and November) because there's no risk of maggots getting in the incision like in summer. But you do have be more careful when trapping and releasing, to make sure they don't get too cold.

Willowy said:

As for some of the original questions, I've found that neutered males seem to enjoy a kind of "neutral" status. The toms ignore him because he's not a threat to their mating rights, and the females befriend him because he's not a rival like the other females but also not always wanting to mate. But they don't get bullied by the intact cats.

Click to expand...

Exactly.  In the early days of me being interested by homeless and ferales, I did some reading on.  One of them was a book sponsored by the british food firm Waltham, but written by intendependent  serious scientists.

And the writer did discussed  TNR as it began to come at this time here and there.  He wrote TNR seemed good and fine for females. But he was much unsure about males.  They did needed their sharpness to survive, to make do, to compete for life, especielly against other toms.  So he wanted to wait with males for giving his opionon on tNR.  But  gave his approval and even support for TNR of females.

I also saw a follow up volume of this Waltham series, written two years later. 

The same author, continuing his writings...

And now he had got new evidence. or rather, more evidence.

It become now clear, neutered toms did OK!  He did wrote.  They didnt not needed to compete and fight with the intact males although they were forced to go aside yes.  The biggest gain for them, they were now admitted into the colonies run by females. Not longer chased away from there.  So in practice, in the total they did nicely, and now fared much better then when still intact...   TNR now recommended on the whole line.

One of my eye openers.

Interesting, thanks. I think of what is 'natural' for cats as far as interfering in the context of them being a Self domesticating animal. This is similiar to dogs. At some point this animal said it was in their best interest to live on our fringes and benefit themselves and we then also benefited. From that prospective feeding is as natural as the pile of old bones from our meals wild dogs would scavenge off. And I have seen women all over the world be compelled to maintain this relationship like a natural call I know they are on the invasive species list. But they are here like us. How long should it take for an environment to absorb and assimilate a situation. Alot of animals fall into this category even certain birds. As we know bird people often use that list to justify removing cats by any means neccessary. I like the neutral status a cat could enjoy that you speak of. But then why have I read altering as better than neutering for reasons that contradict your observations? 

I most likely will TNR these cats if I can find alot of help. I am going to watch carefully over the winter and wait though. My reasoning to do this is to keep the cats safe from people more than anything though. No rounding up and killing and if someone has a problem with me feeding them I can say, look! they are ear tipped. But it is all about people and the lesser of two evils in my opinion.

Thankyou for letting my work through my thoughts and doubts

One more question if anyone knows. Sorry. I read some countries(poorer ones actually like India) have medicines that they inject into the males testes, some even use calcium chloride. It is having tremendous success, the recovery time is much shorter. The costs way cheaper. Why arent we using this in the States? 

There are a lot of politics and money involved in what the FDA will approve in the US :/.

If population control is the most important thing, I do think ovary-sparing spay and vasectomy are more effective. Because a fully spayed/neutered cat is out of the mating pool, so they make no difference in the mating situation---the fertile cats will always be mating with other fertile cats. But an intact-but-sterile cat is still in the mating pool, so will naturally mate with the fertile cats, and this will reduce the population faster. Unfortunately, because of money and politics again, it's difficult to find a vet who will do sterilization like that.

As far as easing relationships, I think full spay/neuter is better. Cat relationships are complex in any case, but hormones really complicate things. And, of course, in an urban/suburban setting, the spraying and yowling are common reasons people want the cats gone, and spay/neuter helps reduce those behaviors.

I cant imagine complaining about the noises or smells another animal makes as a human animal. We are the loudest stinkiest most obnoxious animal around   and some even say we are overpopulated!

Ok thanks, I am out to observe the felines and make sure they are doing ok. I will eventually be looking to hook up with TNR groups in southeast michigan to help with trapping and expect it will be an on going forever project. Maybe on this site I will find some.

I just read about mandatory 12hr fast before surgery on TNR cats. How it can cause many complications and even death if not followed. Is this true? And if so how am I to keep the cats from going in the numerous dumpsters and other people feeding them? 12 hrs of patrol?

Most of the time, you trap them 12 hours or more before surgery.  They usually stay in the crate/traps overnight.  Not pleasant but necessary.  Covering the traps helps keep them calm and putting newspaper under or on the bottom catches the waste if they mess themselves while trapped.

If they eat anything too closely to being put under anesthesia, they may vomit while under anesthesia and will not be able to keep from choking.  Its the same when a human has surgery and anesthesia.

Oh good. That was very worrisome. Thanks

Ondine, great facts here you've given!

I am a hardcore pro-TNR person, I have seen far too much horrible effects of allowing colonies to continue 'as nature' intended.

Are you also aware of just how newborns and young kittens die? Raccoons LOVE to eat babies, unfixed males will see male babies as a threat to their territory/mate and kill them, then attempt to mount the female babies, which obviously kills them.

Many die from extreme anemia due to flea infestations, or are not as strong as the siblings and are carried off to die of starvation.

Unfixed males are the leading cause of the spread of fiv and felv.

They fight to kill and do horrifying damage to other males.

WARNING: Disturbing images
This is (was) Buddy, he was actually blinded completely by an unfixed male, he was only 9 months old.

Here's another pic, this goes on everyday at our local high kill shelter. Despicable.
This is as real as it gets.

It's everywhere, behind the public eye of course.

Maybe groups like PETA are correct then? Better dead than outside? My area will always have a certain percentage of feral no matter how much trapping is done. People leave their pets behind when they move and alot don't get them fixed. I spoke to a woman the other morning who didn't let her female get fixed because she heard the vet then also tears out the nails during operation? She also said her cats has the right to have her babies...many different reasons in people's minds

I have been told fixing the animals will not make them targets of unfixed cats? But how can this be with the behavior you mention? Is fixing these animals making them more 'sitting ducks'? They stay more put with smaller ranging and have no hormones to promote defending....very worrisome

side note- when i made shelters(now gone..) I put food grade DE on the straw inside for fleas. I have read many things pro and cons but took the chance. Any opinions?

Or is your view one more like the ER view of humanity? Surely through those glasses I would say all humanity would be better off dead. There is not one thing mentioned as far as the reality of the feral cat life that doesn't have a human equivalent. People starve, the young are raped, cars kill high percentages, there is disease, parasites, young males fight to the death....How can we put this all into perspective? I am not sure. For people or cats.