Questions about FIP...

If a kitten is not exposed to any cats but the adult with whom we live (who came from the same cattery) and, less than 2 months later, has tests run indicating FIP, I have no choice but to believe that she contracted it within the breeder's home.

What recourse, if any, would I, as a consumer, have in this matter? What would you do if a buyer returned to you two months later and said, "All the tests point to FIP, and the vet concludes that it was most likely contracted your home environment"? (The breeder once told me that she does not test her kittens for FIP/ FeLV but does test her adults.)

Not all of the test results are back, but our cats' feline-only veterinarian seems downheartened by the results she's seen thus far. I won't know with more certainty until Tuesday (or possibly Wed.).

I've had nothing but financial setbacks and, now, heartache since bringing home this kitten; I paid high dollars for a healthy cat and am devestated on all fronts (firstly, emotionally/ psychologically; secondly, financially); I am at my wits end. My husband, grieving internally (as men are wont to do), has said that if it is FIP, he won't purchase another purebred; moreoever, he said that he won't ever want another cat. I know it's thoughts of loss talking (especially the thought of possibly losing our adult, as well, to the disease), but I'm scared that he may turn out to mean it.

I'm terrified that if it is FIP, we literally won't be able to ever have another cat, as our adult, at best, would now be a carrier for the disease.

did you sign a contract? if so what did it state?

I am very sorry you are going through this.

Before I say anything else, let me tell you that there is no “test†for FIP. The only way FIP can be diagnosed is through an autopsy. Cats don't carry FIP and it is not a contagious condition. FIP is also quite uncommon, no matter what anyone (including your vet) says.

It never ceases to amaze me that some vets are still working with such outdated information. The pet owners and the cats suffer for it. So do the breeders who get accused of selling kittens with FIP. I would suggest you find another vet PRONTO. "FIP Tests" or Corona Virus titer tests lost their validity (because there was none to begin with) about ten years ago.

Cats that develop FIP get it because they have a compromised immune system to begin with. When they come into contact with a very common Corona Virus that is in virtually every cattery and multi-cat household (that usually causes a little diarrhea) usually nothing will happen 95% of the time, even to a cat with a compromised immune system. However, about 2-5% of the time a normal Corona virus MUTATES. Again, usually a mutating Corona virus is harmless. However, if a cat is predisposed to getting FIP if this particular mutation occurs, the cat will get FIP. This is why a cat in a household will die from FIP, and no other cats ever get sick. The virus didnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t mutate in them, or they werenâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t susceptible to FIP to begin with if it did.

If your vet is running an “FIP test†he is looking for the presence of Corona virus. A cat can be loaded with Corona virus, but it wonâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t cause FIP unless it mutates, and only then if the cat is predisposed to it already. All the test shows is Corona Virus, not FIP.

FIP doesn't "wipe out entire catteries" the way Feline Leukemia does. It is a totally different type of condition.

I have two neutered males at home, and I bet they would show a presence of corona virus if tested!

I hope this helps you to understand – I wish your vet would read up on this as well.

Your cat may have FIP, but it canâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t be diagnosed through a test. In actuality, it is probably suffering from another ailment. Far too many times, a cat is put down because FIP is suspected (because the vet doesnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t know what is wrong, and cries “FIPâ€), and then when an autopsy is performed, it is not FIP.

I would suggest you post a message on the Feline Health Board at Yahoo and explain the catâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s condition to them. You have to register, but it is free. There you will get advice from feline experts – vets who are up-to-date on the latest feline health issues, breeders, geneticists, etc.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fanciershealth/

Good luck.

CathyG,

Thank you so much for the information. I'm going to the Yahoo boards to post RIGHT NOW!

Jenk

fancycaddy,

The contract says nothing about FIP, which, in my mind, means it could go either way. I have been advised by another breeder, though, to request a full-refund, which is what I would do. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for test results.

Jenk

Thanks for the great explanation CathyG Very clear explanation of something that sounds very complicated. I didn't know anything about it but have read of the heartache those three letters have caused for other pet owners. Thanks again.

Do you think I should let the breeder know what's going on? I don't know if I should mention any dollar amounts of what's been spent on medical care so far, or if that's improper until a positive-FIP (aka, autopsy) report is available.

I hate talking like this; my kitten isn't dead, but she's not doing well. I feel like I'm jinxing her chances.

Jenk

As a breeder I would say YES let them know what is going on.

Example: Buyer gets a kitten takes it home. Buyer is totally happy and has said nothing but they are happy with the kitten. Then 2,3, 4, months down the road hits the breeder with the kitten is sick. The breeder is going to say when did this start. If you say 2 months ago the breeder will ask you why you did not say anything. I am not sure if you said you had a contract or not but that is something that I put in mine. If something should come up I MUST be informed.

So yes I think you should talk to the breeder.

I have to agree with CathyG, the "FIP" test is often misleading. Out of interest, I had my cat tested, she had a titre of 1:800 which is considered extremely high (all a titre will tell you is that the cat has had exposure to the virus, it doesn't tell you if the cat still has the virus). I have a friend who's cat is quite likely dying of FIP right now & her titre is only 1:100. This shows why a test shouldn't be relied on exclusively. You can go on to do a PCR test which tests for the presence of the Corona virus...but not if it's one of the mutated variety. One very well known vet in Australia has been quoted as saying more cats have been killed based on the results of the test than cats who've gotten FIP.

I currently have 7 cats, so am almost 100% sure they are carrying the Corona virus, as most multi cat households do.

This has my curiousity peaked. We rescued a cat from our local shelter around 2 months ago. She died within a week of bringing her home. I took her to my vet(whom I trust) and he said her chances weren't good. She was dehydrated and toxic. (I noticed she seemed ill and made an appointment for the next day..please don't think I was with holding anything from her.) He said she was most likely sick when we adopted her and it manifested after we took her home.

I went home and called the shelter thinking that they may appreciate the heads up. They proceeded to tell me it was a URI but that the Humane Society was going to cover our vet costs. OK, great. She goes to the vet that they use and I recieve a phone call from the Humane Society saying that it an infection from her spaying. OK I say again. I get a call the next morning saying it was FIP and to treat everything that she came in contact with. Use bleach they said and don't be stingy. "Was there an autopsy?" I ask. "No, there was no need, we recognize FIP when we see it." I called MY vet and asked what he thought. He said she displayed no typical FIP symptoms and that I was most likely fine, but if I wanted to clean for my own peace of mind it wouldn't do any harm.

After having read this I really wonder if it was FIP. She didn't display any symptoms of FIP, but seeing as we're bringing another kitten into our home in about a month I want to be safe. Simon(who was here while Lucy was) hasn't been sick at all.

Sorry to hijack the thread but this question is starting to really bother me.

My kitten is definitely displaying the signs of "wet" FIP--every single one of them (not diarrhea, but I know for a fact that all the cats at the cattery had a bout with it because the breeder told me when I picked up my kitty). She has had a full blood panel (determined no organ malfunction), x-rays (showing fluid in her abdominal cavity), and an ultrasound (could find no sign of physical abnormality to require surgery).

TWO vets now have concluded that it is FIP. So far, no one I've asked has been able to give me any other possible cause for the symptoms my kitten has. In fact, one person said that, based on the symptoms and my kitten's young age, it is most likely FIP.

Meanwhile, the breeder says she'll only refund our money with a necropsy report showing FIP. I've spoken with several other breeders, all of whom said that, considering the circumstances (like the emotional rollercoaster and all the money we've spent trying to nurse this kitten to health), they would give us the money just based on proof of the current test results. Besides, I'd feel like a fiend for giving up on my cat, just letting her die so that I can satisfy a breeder's curiosity. (She told me that 1 in 10 cats gets FIP, but that sounds a wee bit high to me. I would think that it may be 1 in 10 who carry the coronavirus, maybe.)

This kitten came home sick and got my adult sick (with what did seem to be Bordetella, as the breeder said he vet had found in her cats). But one of my cats' vets said that the diarrhea issue all her cats had is most likely related to the coronavirus and has nothing to do with Bordetella. He also said that it is most likely that the kitten was exposed to the virus prior to coming to my home (as opposed to being exposed to it from our adult--who came from the same cattery anyway and, who, himself has not been exposed to any other cats since being with me).

I'm sorry to vent for so long, but I am *very* frustrated. I have a breeder who is not being fair (as confirmed by other breeders); I've doled out as much money running tests on my kitten as I have on the kitten herself--and more will be spent trying to get her into "remission" (which we know is not a *cure*). Ugh. I will NEVER, EVER again purchase from a cattery; I had naively thought that doing so would ensure a HEALTHY cat. I should have rescued a poor little thing from "death row" (aka, the shelter) and would have, had I known that a cat from a cattery can just as easily develop FIP.


Again, IF ANYONE CAN THINK OF ANY OTHER POSSIBLE CAUSE FOR THE SYMPTOMS OF "WET" FIP, I'M ALL EARS.

Thank you.

Jenk,

We also require a necropsy report showing FIP for a replacement or refund. Also Do you have a contract for this kitten? What does the contract say in regard to FIP?

You are worried about money and all the bills for the kitten. I understand that it is hard but you choose to take this kitten into your life and you took responsibility for him/her. You would not be worried about the bills if the kitten got sick at age 10. Would you expect the breeder to pay the bills then? Our contract states while in your care it is YOUR responsibility to provide adequate vet care. You are the one who choose to have a pet correct? The breeder did not force you to adopt this kitten did he/she?

Also if the kitten has been sick since you got him/her why did you not return him/her or why did you take him/her home? We have in our contract the buyer/adoptee is to take said kitten/cat to the vet in 72 hours for a vet exam. If it is found at that time by a vet that said kitten was not sold in total health we will replace it or refund the money. So why did you not return him/her?

I have been lucky so far I have not had to deal with FIP or someone wanting to return a kitten. This does not mean that I will not have to ever.

Please read this info if you have not read it. http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/FIP.html

Originally posted by Bengal Cats
Jenk,

You are worried about money and all the bills for the kitten. I understand that it is hard but you choose to take this kitten into your life and you took responsibility for him/her. You would not be worried about the bills if the kitten got sick at age 10. Would you expect the breeder to pay the bills then? Our contract states while in your care it is YOUR responsibility to provide adequate vet care. You are the one who choose to have a pet correct? The breeder did not force you to adopt this kitten did he/she?

Also if the kitten has been sick since you got him/her why did you not return him/her or why did you take him/her home? We have in our contract the buyer/adoptee is to take said kitten/cat to the vet in 72 hours for a vet exam. If it is found at that time by a vet that said kitten was not sold in total health we will replace it or refund the money. So why did you not return him/her?

Click to expand...

Do not be silly, please. Of course I wouldn't ask for reimbursement if she were 10-years-old. As for providing "adequate vet care," we've gone above and beyond in that department and should NOT have had to if we'd received a healthy kitten to begin with.

As to why we brought home the kitten, well, here's the story on that. We drove 3.5 HOURS to the breeder's home. Never did she tell us about any of her cats being sick *until* we arrived there. At the time, my husband was not nearly as gung-ho about having a second cat and would have absolutely killed me if we'd made a 7-hr. drive to return home empty handed. Secondly, the breeder didn't even know at the time that her cats had had Bordetella (she told me this at least a week after we had the kitten home). She sold me a kitten without having knowing the underlying problem. (She also waited to tell me while we were there that her cats all had diarrhea, which I now know is an early sign of exposure to the coronavirus.)

I work with a breeder who's assured me that I have every right to be upset and that I've been treated very unfairly, especially with regards to making that long of a trip without being informed of the circumstances.

Jenk,

I understand you are upset but you still "choose" to take this kitten home. "IF" I had drove 3.5 hours to get a kitten and when I got there a breeder told me her cats were sick I would go right back home. Diarrhea ca be the cause of many things! Not just coronavirus!

Personally I would not have let a kitten go with diarrhea. I also would not take a kitten with diarrhea. You are trying to blame this breeder for something you do not even have proof of. The ONLY way to prove FIP is a necropsy report.

I am sorry you are having to deal with this I do not think it is right but you still "choose" to take a sick kitten home.

From the breeders side this kitten could have been exposed in your care as (I think) you said you have had him/her for 2 months. I still will stand by the fact that A.) You should NOT have taken a sick kitten home. I don't care how far you drove to her home. and B)You should have returned this kitten ASAP if you were not happy with it.

This is all I have to say on this since you already have some to back you on your fight without proof. I don't care what your vet tells you the ONLY way to prove FIP is a necropsy report.

Having watched this thread unfold, I have a few questions and a couple of comments.

Firstly jenk, I know the question was asked, but I didn't see the answer anywhere. Was there a requirement in the contract that you take the kitten to the vet within a certain number of hours/days after the purchase??

If there was, and you didn't follow up as per the contract, then you breached the contract, and her liability in the matter legally ends there.

Was there a health certificate given to you at the time of purchase?
(These can be nothing more than verifying a vet looked at the cat within 72hrs of purchase) which is why you should take a new cat to a vet within a certain number of days after the purchase.

The fact that you accepted the kitten knowing it was sick, doesn't help.

As for the breeder offering a refund with a positive FIP necropsy, that's makes sense, since it IS the only way to prove it.

We could postulate all day long but truthfully, without seeing the contract, all we (other breeders) can do is give you answers that are possibilities and nothing more.

What state was the kitten purchased in? There are some states that regulate klittens sales, and do have cat "lemon laws", but again, you've had the kitten for so long that it will probably will not be an option.

To me, this breeder blows big time, my opinion of course.

I realize it's frustrating, but it may very well be that you don't have any recourse. The only thing to do at that point is to do what you can for the kitten, keep ALL the reciepts and paperwork for your vet care related to this, have a necropsy done if the kitten passes, and should it be found to be FIP, get your money back and try and recoup the costs of the vet care. I say this only because the breeder said she would refund the purchase price if it was FIP. BTW, you need to get THAT in writing, should you end up taking her to court, he said she said, isn't worth a nickel.

Oh, was anything mentioned in the contract regarding a necropsy? Some breeders put that in the contract as far as who is responsible for paying for it and so forth.

wish you luck...

Imagyne,

Yes, we took the kitten for a check-up within the required 72 hours. Of course, at that time, nothing was found to be amiss.

When at her home, the breeder told me that all of her cats/ kittens had *had* diarrhea but that all of them had recovered after a course of antibiotics. My kitten did not come home with diarrhea (seemingly over it), nor did we witness her act sick within the home.

Secondly, since telling the breeder of the two vets' conclusion that our kitten has FIP (which is not mentioned in her contract), she has told us that she would reimburse us for the kitten upon receiving a positive FIP report but added that she would not pay any medical expenses. To borrow the exact words of a co-worker/ cat breeder I know, "[that] really bites." My husband is none too happy over the breeder's unwillingness to take any responsibilty for the situation. I've had other breeders tell me that, if she *requires* an FIP-positive necropsy report and receives one, *she,* the breeder, should also reimburse us for the cost of that. I have my doubts that she would, though.

Bengal Cats,

I understand that a necropsy report is the only true form of proof. Yet no one, including the breeder, can offer any other possibilities of what ALL the symptoms of "wet" FIP could be. The bloodwork, x-rays, abdominal fluid biopsy--none point to any other problems. Nada, zip, zero.

As for the kitten catching the coronavirus in my care... Well, if she got it from our current cat, let me remind you that our adult (never exposed to other cats--boarded, taken to shows, etc.) came from the same cattery. I can offer no possibilities of how my kitten came to develop FIP; one vet even stated to me that he feels it most likely that the kitten arrived with the coronavirus in her system, considering that she was only with us for just under two months when her symptoms became noticeable and since her immune system was compromised at the breeder's home (diarrhea, Bordetella, heaven knows what else). *sigh*

I've done all that I can do. I am one of the most consciencious pet owners you will ever meet (even if only online). I feel majorly reponsible for doing all that I can for my kitten's well-being. Allowing her to just linger and die (or making the snap decision to put her down) just to be able to get a necropsy report to the breeder is not an option. I will try to do all that I can for her until I've done *everything* that I can to put the illness into remission (which is the best outcome, I know).

If I lose all of my money (spent on the kitten and medical care) from this situation, I've still walked away with a valuable lesson: a shelter cat needing a good home is just as good as any purebred and it not necessarily any less healthy (in terms of serious/ fatal illnesses).

I think that it is vital and only fair that, if a breeder's cats are sick (or have been sick), buyers are made aware of this fact beforehand; it is not right to allow someone to make a day-long drive only to have to make the awful choice between leaving with a kitten you now know to have been ill or to make the long drive home without him/ her. More importantly, whether or not a purchaser still takes the cat, one more fact needs to be kept in mind: Most buyers of purebreds, if purchasing one for a pet rather than show, do not know the skinny on cat illnesses like a breeder does; thus, it is not fair for a breeder to take advantage of a buyer's ignorance by withholding info. in order to make a sale and, then, giving the impression that all is under control (that the cats are all better after a round of antibiotics). I did not know any better at the time; but I do now.

Besides watching my kitten act lethargic, feeling her hot ears (fever), seeing her glazed eyes, while praying that her medication will have some effect, I also wonder about all the other kittens who went home with other unsuspecting owners. I can only assume that, since all the cats had diarrhea and Bordetella (which I was told at the time of purchase was a common kitten cold because even the breeder didn't know at that time what it was), *all* those kittens around at that time were exposed to the coronavirus, as well. (Yes, I have nothing else to believe, after all the tests that have been performed, the results of said test and the fact that no cat expert can offer me any other possibility.) I wonder if they, too, are now (or soon will be) undergoing the same agonizing heartache as I am.

I understand that a cattery is generally a hobby and a legitimate business. But as a business, it is only right to treat the customer fairly and to be forthright in all business dealings. A breeder should never assume that a potential cat owner understands as much about cat illnesses as s/he and should not withhold the info. that a cat has been sick and/ or downplay the info. once given. So, please, I beg of all breeders, remember this: To you, your cattery/ cats is/are a business; to a cat buyer, they are family members. So when I'm treated by this breeder as though a "replacment" kitten can be given, I'm even more distraught. There is *no* replacement for my baby--and to suggest such a thing knowing that the symptoms indicate FIP is, to me, rather devestating.

I do not write this to lecture anyone, but merely to explain where I was/ am coming from. Just as a vet should display sincere compassion for a pet owner's pain/ loss, a breeder, too, should be able to relinquish the clinical (business) aspect to understand the pet owner's plight. And, as most breeder's have told me, a breeder in a situation such as this one (involving a kitten so young), should take more responsibility.

Jenk,

Like I said before I am sorry you have to deal with this BUT you still choose to take the cat home.

If you had read the link I posted you would have read this.

Recent research has shown that mutant FECVs arise within an individual cat. Thus, we now know that the vast majority of cats do not "catch" FIP, but they develop it themselves from their own mutant FECV. Transmission of FIP from cat to cat is considered to be rare. This fact has caused leading FIP researchers to state that cats who are ill with FIP are unlikely to be a risk to other cats and thus do not need to be isolated.

A genetic predisposition to the development of FIP was identified by Drs. Foley and Pedersen in 1996. They examined pedigree and health data from 10 generations of cats in several purebred catteries and found that the heritability of susceptibility to FIP could be very high (about 50%). It is likely a polygenetic trait rather than a simple dominant or recessive mode of inheritance. Inbreeding, by itself, is not a risk factor. Selecting for overall disease resistance is a helpful tool for breeders. The likely defect in immunity to FIP is in cell-mediated immunity. Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and viral infections. This finding gives breeders the ability to achieve success in reducing the risk of FIP by using pedigree analysis to select breeding cats from family backgrounds that have strong resistance to FIP and other infectious diseases.

If you care to read it you may see this just may not be the breeder fault. It is sometimes something that just happens. NO ONES FAULT!

Once again I am done speaking on this since you just wish to place blame.

Good luck.

Jenk,

I do agree that you should have been told of illness.

But would you really want a replacement if you say all were exposed to coronavirus? I sure would not!

We are infact breeders NOT vets. Some breeders know more than others. Some are still learning. So maybe she did not know. I am learning things everyday.

My cats are pets first and then breeders. Not all look at it this way but we do!

As for Bordetella it is a URI.


Bordetella bronchiseptica (B. bronchiseptica), a small, motile, aerobic Gram-negative bacillus which is involved in respiratory diseases in different animals including dogs where it causes tracheobronchitis (kennel cough, Appel and Binn 1987), and pigs where it contributes towards atrophic rhinitis (Magyar et al 1988 ). In 1991 the hypothesis was investigated that B. bronchiseptica could act as a primary respiratory pathogen in cats (Jacobs et al 1993) .

In the field B. bronchiseptica has been isolated from cats with respiratory disease in breeding colonies known to be free of both FHV and FCV (Elliot et al 1991). It is, therefore, becoming apparent that this bacterium plays a significant role in some cases of feline infectious URTD. Epidemiological studies show that B. bronchiseptica is widespread in the feline population with disease being related to periods of stress such as that experienced in breeding and boarding catteries and during pregnancy and parturition.


More info can be found here http://www.felinebb.info/index.asp?lan=EN

Jenk...

To be honest with you, I think there is very little you can do except to do what you can for the cat and hope that everything turns out okay.

Now, as far as other things that can cause fluid in the abdominal cavity (which is a classic symptom of FIP):

Bacterial Peritonitis
Chemical Peritonitis (pancreatitis, bile/urine Peritonitis)
Chylous effusions
some abdominal neoplasms
Liver desease (but this is more common in dogs than cats)

Unfortunately, alot of vets will focus only on the obvious (FIP)

As for your comment on never buying from a breeder again.....

There are alot of bad breeders out there, just because they have a cute name and a website doesn't make them good.
But there are a heck of alot MORE good ethical breeders as well, and as with anything else it is incumbent upon the buyer to do ALOT of research about the breeder they choose. Even ones you've dealt with before.

I've said this before in this forum, You have to visit the cattery, talk to people who dealt with a breeder recently, talk to the breeders vet.

If a breeder give ANY objection to those then simply find another one.

Frankly, if potential customers don't want to come to our cattery and see what there kitten is comming from, the conditions of the cats in the cattery, then they won't get a kitten from us.

The point is that you have to be extremely proactive in choosing a breeder. I'm saying this because of the people here who will read this thread, so they know what they should look for.