Vaccinations - Yay or Nay?

thevegancuddler · Oct 15, 2013

Anyone have any info about the advantages and disadvantages of vaccines? It's taken as a default that we should get our cats vaccinated, but with the on-going debate about cancer and disease-causing agents in vaccines intended for humans, I'm wondering if some people feel that it's best to not vaccinate cats at all. Is there anyone here who doesn't vaccinate their cats for health reasons?

fhicat · Oct 15, 2013

I'm a bit wary about yearly vaccination too, especially for 100% indoor cats. I'm not sure if there's a way around that, as I am still renting apartments and most "pet-friendly" apartments want to see yearly vaccination records.

peaches08 · Oct 15, 2013

My young cats I had no issue with vaccinating. They need to build immunity. As time rocks along, I'll look into titers. My diabetic CRF cat Grey :rbheart:

however, in her elderly years the vet agreed that we were fine not vaccinating her.

mrsgreenjeens · Oct 16, 2013

Here's a thread you might find interesting: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245463/do-indoor-cats-really-need-vaccines

thevegancuddler · Oct 17, 2013

mrsgreenjeens said:
Here's a thread you might find interesting: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245463/do-indoor-cats-really-need-vaccines

Thanks!

After all of this reading, I'm thinking I won't be vaccinating my cats anymore, or if I do have any new cats, it'll be one set to start them off and then no more. I'm glad I came across this info. I recently adopted an eleven-year-old cat, and I was gonna update his shots, but as he is a senior kitty, I don't want to expose him to cancerous toxins.

jazzygemmy · Oct 17, 2013

I'll take my chances. I have seen too many cats come down with crap that could have been prevented had they had their vaccinations. I feel the same way about vaccinations for my child. It bothers me when parents don't vaccinate their children. My brother and sister in law have never vaccinated their 2 year old daughter and she contracted whooping cough last year. We almost lost her. However my brother will vaccinate their black lab

steve smith · Oct 17, 2013

We have 8 indoor cats and do not vaccinate . have seen to many cats come down with tumors .

rainbo · Oct 17, 2013

When I had MacLeod my door dashing, escape artist, extraordinaire, I kept him up to date on his shots. There was feral cat colonies where I lived with him and the people caring for those cats did nothing for them but put out food and water. Since he insisted on getting out it was safest for him to keep him vaccinated.

When I had Pirate he was indoor only and had no interest in going outside. Knowing the risk of cancer and tumor from the vaccines and knowing that he was not coming into contact with any other cats I chose to not vaccinate him. If he had been an escape artist like Mac, and was coming into contact with other cats then, yes, I would have vaccinated him. Like Jazzy, I've seen way to many cats get sick with preventable diseases.

mrsgreenjeens · Oct 17, 2013

We just had this discussion Tuesday with our Vet since it was annual exam day and the furkids were due for their vaccines. We have this discussion EVERY year. Even Dr. Christina doesn't know what to advise anymore. But after much discussion, and knowing that our boys never go outside, and that they are never around other cats (except their sister), and they had their boosters as kittens, we finally decided on rabies only, after much hesitation. The only reason for the rabies shot is because I absolutely cannot trim Tinky's claws, so he has to go to the groomers, and they need a rabies certificate. His paws are so furry that I can't find them

. He only has so much patience, and by the time I have separated out the claws from all the fur, he's started squirming like crazy. We actually stopped by the groomers on the way to their Vet appt Tuesday, and the groomer mentioned how hard it was to locate his claws, so I'm not making this up

And if I am going to submit him to a car ride, I don't want him to go alone. They seem to do better if they both go, so then I need to get Darko "rabied" too.

And Callie got vaccinated for so many years that we all figure she's got enough to last her a lifetime.

(BUT, I do think human children should get vaccinated, mainly because they are around other kids and therefore susceptible to catching all kinds of things)

night wing · Oct 18, 2013

My strictly indoor cat gets a yearly rabies shot because in Texas where I live, it's mandated by state law. You can refuse, but if you refuse, the vet can't treat your dog/cat for anything because if the vet does treat your pet, the vet would be breaking state law and will lose their vet license if it's reported to the state of Texas. An indoor cat doesn't get any exceptions from the state of Texas because indoor cats do escape sometimes which Craigslist will confirm in their Pets section under the heading of "Lost".

My vet has run into "new" people bringing in their mature dogs/cats for the first time for "something" and she has to ask them for a rabies certificate. Then the excuses start coming stating, "I lost the certificate".

Then the vet will ask the owner of the animal to bring in the metal dog/cat tag. Then another excuse comes, "The tag fell off the animal's collar" and/or "I lost that too".

Then the vet will ask the owner for the name of the last vet who treated the mature animal so he/she can call that vet for a rabies shot confirmation. Then the last excuse comes, "I can't remember the last vet's name or his practice".

So the vet is left with only one choice. The owner has to approve the rabies shot in order to treat the animal and if that is refused, send the person and their animal away.

On a sidenote.In 1955 when I was 5 years old, I had to have a series of 21 rabies shots because a dog got loose, was roaming around and bit me on my right hand. The owner of the dog never had that animal vaccinated against rabies. The dog was foaming at the mouth and it was sick since it avoided drinking water. As a precaution, I had to take that series of shots and at that time, the shots were given through my stomach and they hurt beyond belief. BTW, the dog was taken by Animal Control and that dog died shortly after biting me. Somehow the dog had come into contact with a rabid raccoon and the raccoon nipped the dog with it's teeth and the dog did have rabies which an animal necropsy confirmed.

Now, in this day and age (2013), I think a series of rabies shots for a human is only 3 or 5 shots administered to one's arms.

Willowy · Oct 18, 2013

I'm torn about whether cat vaccinations (other than for rabies) are necessary. The diseases the vaccines protect against are not generally fatal---except for panleukopenia, which is quite rare even in the unvaccinated farm cat/feral population. Rhinotracheitis is basically a cold or flu, and the vaccine only protects against a few strains. Same for coronavirus and calicivirus. Of course FeLV is fatal, but the vaccine is high-risk and not very effective anyway. So. . .I'm just not sure vaccinating cats for anything other than rabies is worth the risk :dk:. Keeping the cats on a high-quality diet and keeping their environment clean and low-stress does more good to prevent infectious disease.

On the dog side, I do think puppies should get the full series of their parvo/distemper shots, though---those are nasty fatal diseases, and the vaccines are pretty effective.

At any rate, whether you think vaccines are worth it or not, the AVMA is recommending that they be given "no more often than once every 3 years (after the kitten/puppy series)". So any vet vaccinating more often than that is ignoring their own association's research, which isn't really a good sign, unless they have a well-reasoned explanation about why they chose to do that.

andrya · Oct 18, 2013

My youngest is due his 3-in-1 booster on Monday, and l'm probably going to get it.

Our vets' website says they do vaccines tailored to each cat's needs if they're necessary, so mine likely doesn't need them. BUT, we have neighbours' cats who come to our back yard and l would like to get Rhys outside on a harness, so l figure l may as well get the one booster.

We are also legally bound to have our rabies shots kept up to date, but we only get them every 3 years. l wonder how that would work crossing the border into the States...

Willowy · Oct 18, 2013

Most states allow 3-year rabies. Even if they don't, they'll accept a rabies certificate signed by your vet and dated for 3 years. They only look at the "expriation date".

jazzygemmy · Oct 18, 2013

Night Wing said:
My strictly indoor cat gets a yearly rabies shot because in Texas where I live, it's mandated by state law. You can refuse, but if you refuse, the vet can't treat your dog/cat for anything because if the vet does treat your pet, the vet would be breaking state law and will lose their vet license if it's reported to the state of Texas. An indoor cat doesn't get any exceptions from the state of Texas because indoor cats do escape sometimes which Craigslist will confirm in their Pets section under the heading of "Lost".

My vet has run into "new" people bringing in their mature dogs/cats for the first time for "something" and she has to ask them for a rabies certificate. Then the excuses start coming stating, "I lost the certificate".

Then the vet will ask the owner of the animal to bring in the metal dog/cat tag. Then another excuse comes, "The tag fell off the animal's collar" and/or "I lost that too".

Then the vet will ask the owner for the name of the last vet who treated the mature animal so he/she can call that vet for a rabies shot confirmation. Then the last excuse comes, "I can't remember the last vet's name or his practice".

So the vet is left with only one choice. The owner has to approve the rabies shot in order to treat the animal and if that is refused, send the person and their animal away.

On a sidenote.In 1955 when I was 5 years old, I had to have a series of 21 rabies shots because a dog got loose, was roaming around and bit me on my right hand. The owner of the dog never had that animal vaccinated against rabies. The dog was foaming at the mouth and it was sick since it avoided drinking water. As a precaution, I had to take that series of shots and at that time, the shots were given through my stomach and they hurt like beyond belief. BTW, the dog was taken by Animal Control and that dog died shortly after biting me. Somehow the dog had come into contact with a rabid raccoon and the raccoon nipped the dog with it's teeth and the dog did have rabies which an animal necropsy confirmed.

Now, in this day and age (2013), I think a series of rabies shots for a human is only 3 or 5 shots administered to one's arms.

Why a rabies shot every year? Why can't you guys get the three year shot? I know there is a 1 and a 3 year versions, but to make the law be once per year seems silly. Maybe there is a difference between the effectiveness?

jazzygemmy · Oct 18, 2013

Willowy said:
I'm torn about whether cat vaccinations (other than for rabies) are necessary. The diseases the vaccines protect against are not generally fatal---except for panleukopenia, which is quite rare even in the unvaccinated farm cat/feral population. Rhinotracheitis is basically a cold or flu, and the vaccine only protects against a few strains. Same for coronavirus and calicivirus. Of course FeLV is fatal, but the vaccine is high-risk and not very effective anyway. So. . .I'm just not sure vaccinating cats for anything other than rabies is worth the risk

. Keeping the cats on a high-quality diet and keeping their environment clean and low-stress does more good to prevent infectious disease.

On the dog side, I do think puppies should get the full series of their parvo/distemper shots, though---those are nasty fatal diseases, and the vaccines are pretty effective.

At any rate, whether you think vaccines are worth it or not, the AVMA is recommending that they be given "no more often than once every 3 years (after the kitten/puppy series)". So any vet vaccinating more often than that is ignoring their own association's research, which isn't really a good sign, unless they have a well-reasoned explanation about why they chose to do that.

Yes, Panleukopenia MAY be rare, but IF it is contracted, it is HIGHLY contagious! It has the strength to wipe out an entire feral community of cats. What if an indoor/outdoor cat did contract it and spread it to the rest of the felines in your household? Scary! Did you know it can survive on most indoor surfaces for 1 year! Holy cow!

I know you think that if you have indoor cats, you have no reason to vaccinate, but that is not so! Let's imagine you are visiting a friend's house/local humane society and you happen to pick up a virus/disease on your clothes/shoes, etc. Then you go home and track who knows what onto your carpet/furniture/walls.

Vaccine sarcomas are still quite a rarity. Yes, it can happen, but like I said, I will take my chances.

catpack · Oct 18, 2013

1.) The FeLV vaccine is the most effective vaccine in preventing a cat from contracting the disease (95-97% effective I believe.) I know first hand that this vaccine DOES work.

2.) The difference between the 1 yr and 3 yr rabies vaccine is that the 3 yr rabies vaccine uses an adjuvant (this is a substance that is added to the vaccine to increase the cat's immune response to the vaccine.) Most vets carry the 1 yr vaccine w/o the adjuvant. Most are in agreement that the 1 yr/adjuvant-free vaccine is the safest for cats.

Willowy · Oct 18, 2013

Panleukopenia and Rhinotracheitis can only be spread by bodily fluid contact. Calicivirus can be spread through the air, but, as I said, only a few strains are covered by the vaccine so it may not be protective against whatever strain is going around anyway. The disease you're most likely to bring home from other sources is a kitty cold. . .and no vaccine for that yet! I have never known of a cat that actually got panleukopenia (even farm cats), though I'm sure that the prevalence is higher in warmer climates.

I believe the FeLV vaccine info says it's about 75%-80% effective, and adult cats have about a 90% natural immunity to FeLV (there's an AVMA study that I'll find and post later). It may be useful for kittens at risk of exposure but otherwise it doesn't improve on natural immunity.

Cats have developed sarcomas from all kinds of injections, even sub-q fluids. This indicates that adjuvant is not the only cause of VAS. I'm not convinced that giving an adjuvant-free vaccine 3 times as often is safer than giving an adjuvanted vaccine less frequently. Now, once they get PureVax approved for 3-year labeling, it'll be a no-brainer!

Sarcomas are not the only side effect of vaccines. They can also cause weird behavior (the rabies vaccine would make my first dog very aggressive/reactive to other dogs for about 6-8 months after the vaccine was given), weaken the immune system, and contribute to things like IBD and other immune-mediated disorders. Back when I vaccinated my cats regularly, they were always sick with something. Now they're not, and I have a lot more cats :dk:. Sometimes the benefit of vaccinating is worth the side effects, sometimes not. It's a thing you have to decide for yourself.

jazzygemmy · Oct 18, 2013

Yes, Panleukopenia is spread via bodily fluids, which means it can spread via feces and vomit, which many of the cats that are infected do often. Like I said, it can survive for up to a year, so it can be spread via bedding, clothing, shoes, etc, which while less common, can happen. Transmission can occur after contact of an infected fomite. A fomite is just basically a surface that can contain the virus. This can be a litterbox, food bowls, cages and the like. I suppose if you don't want any of your cats to contract it, but don't vaccinate, you need to be diligent about keeping your home clean and wipe down any surfaces with diluted bleach.

lilin · Oct 18, 2013

thevegancuddler said:
Anyone have any info about the advantages and disadvantages of vaccines? It's taken as a default that we should get our cats vaccinated, but with the on-going debate about cancer and disease-causing agents in vaccines intended for humans, I'm wondering if some people feel that it's best to not vaccinate cats at all. Is there anyone here who doesn't vaccinate their cats for health reasons?

Based on all of the real scientific evidence, it is unquestionable that vaccines for humans do a million times more good than harm.

However, with cats, there is an additional factor: they are prone to injection site sarcoma, which humans are not.

Does Pia have vaccines? Yes, absolutely. I do not know where she was injected because she got most of them at the shelter, but if she had not, I would have done it myself, and asked to have them injected in the lower limbs and using the safer formulations.

But my plan after this is to have her titered. There is absolutely no evidence that cats need yearly vaccines, or even every 3 years. Given the unique risks with cats, I will not have her injected with anything more often than she absolutely needs to be. There are probably some vaccines I will not repeat, due to the fact that healthy adult cats simply aren't very vulnerable.

But I am also not going to leave her completely vulnerable to deadly diseases.

vball91 · Oct 18, 2013

I don't think anyone has posted this yet. http://www.catinfo.org/?link=vaccines

What Dr. Pierson has to say about vaccines makes a lot of sense to me and is supported by recent research.

LDG said:
Actually, Winn Feline just published about a study that indicates the non-adjuvanted rabies vaccination does provide at least 3-year protection: http://winnfelinehealth.blogspot.com/2013/06/long-term-immunity-to-rabies.html

This is major for anyone that practices TNR and works with feral cats - but only because it is current research based on the non-adjuvanted vaccine.

The research already existed for the older vaccines:

http://www.alleycat.org/Page.aspx?pid=686

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1319696/

And a French study from 1992 found the same 5-year immunity: http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vaccines/FrenchRabiesStudy.html

The Rabies Challenge Fund: http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/latest/latest-rabies-challenge-fund-updates They're up to year six...

However, there is reason to believe vaccinations confer long term immunity in general, the way (most) of them do in people: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021997509003338

Vaccinations - Yay or Nay?

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