When we first found Josie at about 5 weeks old she appeared to be plain and simply a linx point Siamese mix. Now that she's a little bit older (about 5 months) she has developed a more defined orange color in her coat. Her ears have splotched of orange, she has an orange blaze on her face and a couple of orange spots on her paws. I will get pictures asap but is this abnormal? What does this mean as far as her parents might be concerned? Can siamese even have tortie/calico traits?
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Siamese cat with calico/tortie markings?
TheCatSite.com Top Pickspost #2 of 79/6/13 at 3:57am
Since she's a mix, you don't don't know her parentage and, can only make guesses One could have been Siamese, mixture thereof or carry the pointed gene from prior generations, and the other parent a breed with a Tortoiseshell coat or again, in it's background to carry to it's kittens. Or, even the Siamese side of her could have such a mixture of genes from interbreeding of various types of cats through generations, which included a Tortie/Calico waiting to come out. You just have no way of knowing. I somehow suspect, based on percentages that the unusual coloring came from her mom's side since it is rare for a male to be a Tortie/Calico (it happens, but most are infertile).
Can't wait to see a photo of her. She sounds really unusual!post #3 of 79/6/13 at 6:20amEven purebred Orientals can be tortie point (not that I think she's a purebred or has any purebred in her recent background). They're very pretty kitties!
As for her parents, both had to be carrying the pointed gene for it to be passed on to any kittens. That gene could be from way back or more recent, no way to know.
Since females get one color allele from each parent, this means that she got red from one parent and black from the other. So either mama was red or tortie (passed on the red) and daddy was "black" (could be pure black or gray or a dark tabby or whatever, just any color not red), or mama was tortie (passed on the black) or "black" and daddy was a red tabby.post #4 of 79/6/13 at 7:49am
It sounds like this kitten is probably a "Torbie Point" , if you see tabby stripes etc. in the dark patches as well as the orange patches. I am thinking Torbie Point, since you mention at first thinking Lynx Point ( Tabby Point) and later noticing the orange / Red on her. So that sounds like you probably first saw the tabby markings in the black-based color. and that would make her a Torbie Point ( Torbie = Tortoiseshell - Tabby)
She would be Seal Torbie Point if the darkest markings are black or very very dark brown, ( If instead , her darkest stripes are grey , that would be Blue Torbie Point. )
Basically, the pointed (aka colorpoint) pattern, which is caused by inheriting a recessive "cs" allele from both parents, just causes the most dense coat pigment to be restricted to the cooler parts of the body. It can go with ANY coat color or any tabby pattern. So no, it's not abnormal at all that a cat with a pointed pattern could have tortoiseshell coloring and tabby markings. ( Or to put it the other way round --- it's not abnormal that a tortie or torbie could be pointed. )
If you're asking what colors are officially accepted in pedigreed Siamese cats, it depends on which cat association. Most of the world's cat associations' Siamese standards do allow other colors / patterns like tabby point ( lynx point) , red point , tortie point and torbie point.
The most strict are CFA and CCA/AFC which only allow seal point, blue point, chocolate point and lilac point -- the 4 natural colors that Siamese can be without an outcross. The reasoning is that it's known that lynx points and red color resulted from crosses to Western cats, since all the Siamese originally imported from Siam long ago had black-based color, in solid not lynx point.
I don't mean to imply that all seal point cats (or all seal point shorthair cats) ARE Siamese. A seal point cat of unknown ancestry is not likely to have a higher percentage of Siamese just because it's a seal point ( which is basically a black cat with a pointed pattern.)
Probably most of the pointed cats of unknown ancestry are less than 0.001% Siamese.
The pointed pattern did originally come from Southeast Asia and got to other countries via Siamese cats. But over the past 100+ years, the pattern has been bred into other breeds, and has also been widely spread through the general random-bred cat populations in many countries, due to Siamese and their mixed breed descendants mating with the local cats. Probably a lot of the spread of this gene from Siamese into the general "domestic shorthair/ longhair" (moggy) population happened in the mid 20th century when Siamese were at the height of their popularity , and fewer people back then got their cats altered, and more people let even pedigreed cats roam around and mate with the moggy down the road.
So having this pattern tells us that your little torbie point had SOME Siamese ancestors, but doesn't tell us how recent those Siamese ancestors were or if the pattern was passed down via some other breed that somehow or other got the pattern -- that includes a wide variety of breeds -- everything from Himalayan Persians to Ragdolls to Cornish Rex to "Snow" Bengals to American Bobtails to Birmans to Tonkinese, etc. ......post #5 of 79/6/13 at 8:01amQuote:
But usually only as small kittens. If they continue to be points, they are registered as siameses when the time to register them comes before they are sold to their new homes.
At least, so it is in the big European association of Fife.
This trick is possible only because they are very near breeds, and surely because modern siameses were often used in the breeding programme of the modern orientals. Possibly also vice versa.post #6 of 79/6/13 at 8:26amI didn't know what to call them since I know that some registries don't allow other colors in Siamese, and I didn't take the time to look it up, so i just used Oriental as a general Siamese-type cat term . OK, so Oriental Shorthairs are the solid colors and Colorpoint Shorthairs are the non-standard colored Siamese, right? In CFA anyway.
So what I meant was: a purebred of a pointed breed can be tortie/torbie point, it's not unusual or an indication of not being purebred (assuming tortie/torbie point is allowed in the breed). So, yes, Siamese can be tortie/torbie point, although in CFA they'd be called Colorpoint Shorthairs instead of Siamese.post #7 of 79/6/13 at 11:09amQuote:Originally Posted by Willowy
I didn't know what to call them since I know that some registries don't allow other colors in Siamese, and I didn't take the time to look it up, so i just used Oriental as a general Siamese-type cat term . OK, so Oriental Shorthairs are the solid colors and Colorpoint Shorthairs are the non-standard colored Siamese, right? In CFA anyway.
So what I meant was: a purebred of a pointed breed can be tortie/torbie point, it's not unusual or an indication of not being purebred (assuming tortie/torbie point is allowed in the breed). So, yes, Siamese can be tortie/torbie point, although in CFA they'd be called Colorpoint Shorthairs instead of Siamese.
Yes you are right! Yes there are tortie points etc. who are pedigreed cats.
CFA's Colorpoint Shorthairs are the pointed cats that are basically Siamese in anything but the "Sacred Four" colors.
Orientals would be (mostly) non-pointed. The whole purpose for starting the Oriental breed was to breed Siamese- type cats in every possible non pointed color and pattern. But since this was a breed that originated from Siamese and uses Siamese as an outcross , many carry the pointed allele. so they can have pointed kittens. Whether and how those can be shown, and whether pointed Orientals should be purposely bred, has been a big controversy in CFA.
In CFA a pointed Oriental would NOT get registered as a Siamese.
Edited by maewkaew - 9/6/13 at 2:48pm
- Siamese cat with calico/tortie markings?
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