Feline Vasectomy

nibblerandco · Aug 19, 2015

To Denice -- again, where is the quantitative evidence? What exactly is the risk of pyometra? (From what I've read it's lower in cats than in dogs.) How does the risk of pyometra balance against other (poorly investigated) health effects of spaying? How does the use of a teaser tom as opposed to allowing dry heat cycles affect pyometra risk? (My queen has only cycled a few times this year because she is "bred" on every heat.) Are repeat dry heat cycles preferable to repeat pseudopregnancies, with attendant progesterone exposure? What about an ovary-sparing spay? -- These are possible in dogs, why not cats?

margd · Aug 19, 2015

You've obviously done a lot of research on this and have well thought out reasons for wanting to go with the vasectomy. If you feel that strongly about it, maybe it's worth trying and if things don't work out, then have your boy neutered.

You asked two questions I want to address. One has to do with spraying. Even though neutering reduces spaying, it does not eliminate it all the time if the cat is stressed out. I had two neutered males who sprayed everywhere over territorial issues. If your boy spayed after the vasectomy, you could try some of the other ways of addressing spraying, such as plugging in Feliway diffusers and working to address the triggers.

The other point relates to searching out females in heat and wandering away from home. It would seem reasonable that he would indeed seek out females in heat if he still had the urge to mate. One of the neutered males I mentioned earlier used to mount an unspayed female I brought home from the shelter before I had her spayed. He did not try after her operation, nor did he try to mount my other spayed female. My cats were indoors only so I don't know if he would have gone in search otherwise but later, when he was indoors outdoors, he always stayed close to home so I don't think so. My point is that you won't know how your boy will react until you try it although it would seem to that if even neutered cats retain the urge, a male who still has his sex hormones would have a much stronger urge.

In terms of getting him a female companion with her tubes tied, he'd probably enjoy the company, so why not? If he takes to roaming anyway, then you can consider having him neutered.

This isn't the kind of quantitative info you're looking for, just a few thoughts based on anecdotal info. I don't think you're crazy at all for wanting to go the vasectomy, tube -tied route. You've obviously done a lot of research and thought about it a lot. I would definitely look for more info on pyrometra though. I adopted a senior cat who had never been spayed and she came down with it. It wasn't pleasant and she had to be spayed anyway (which I'd planned to do). It seems reasonable to avoid the risk even if even a moderate number develop it.

Willowy · Aug 19, 2015

I'm not sure if I believe that cats have a lower incidence of pyometra than dogs, because cat breeders report that almost all unbred unspayed females will end up with something wrong in their reproductive organs. Perhaps it's not truly pyometra and that accounts for the lower incidence. A vet once gave me the name of what's usually seen in unspayed cats but I don't remember it now. I don't know what difference it would make if she were bred by a sterile male.

Studies done in Sweden (where dogs are rarely spayed) shows that approximately 25% of unspayed female dogs will get pyometra and 25% will get mammary cancer. I don't think similar studies have been done in cats.

There is a study that shows that altered dogs live longer in general than unaltered dogs. Even though early neutering increases the chances of certain types of cancer in large-breed dogs. So even if there are a few health risks, it doesn't seem to affect longevity negatively.

I know that altered animals do need fewer calories. But I don't think that most women who have had ovariohysterectomies just "feel like crap and lie around all day"---my aunt says it's the best thing she's ever done for herself, but then she was having some hormonal difficulties. She certainly isn't lying around the house all day

. She couldn't take replacement hormones because they made her sick. Although I'm sure some women who have had full hysterectomies have had problems from it too.

I actually find intact females more obnoxious than intact males, but again, if there is a sterile male for her to breed with this may reduce the undesirable behavior. One problem I could foresee with waiting until a tom has started spraying to neuter him is that he may not stop :/.

I guess I mean to say that I have no problem with somebody who has educated themselves making the decision to seek alternative sterilization methods. However, I don't think it should be suggested to the general public that altering their pets may be undesirable. Because your average owner will NOT seek out alternative sterilization, and will simply allow their pet to breed freely because they "heard somewhere that spaying/neutering is DANGEROUS". And we've made great strides in reducing pet overpopulation since the '70s and '80s (when shelters were killing over 20 million pets every year) and I'd hate to see that go down the drain.

nibblerandco · Aug 19, 2015

Margd, thanks for the suggestion about Feliway. If my little guy ever did spray I would certainly try that before neutering. I also have leopard-print stud pants, which I ordered before we moved, fully expecting him to spray. Alas, he did not, so I've had no excuse to put them on him.

I'm being facetious, of course -- it's fantastic that he hasn't sprayed in response to the biggest disruption of his life, and I hope it's a litmus test for his future spraying tendencies.

I wanted to clarify that I'm not the original poster; I commented on this thread because I've actually already had the vasectomy done on my cat. Hence, I can speak from personal experience, and I've seen very few people in similar situations. My boy has an intact female companion whom he's known since kittenhood and to whom he's bonded (though I think he's more bonded to her than she is to him -- he's quite a snuggler and needs a lot of physical affection, while she is more independent, though also extremely affectionate...but only when she feels like it). He mates with her when she's in heat, but doesn't frantically try to escape or yowl mournfully at the windows when she isn't available. He does race around the house squeaking but that often indicates that he's about to use the litter tray, or that he really wants to play. I've also seen my queen on several occasions climb into his chair and intentionally wake him from his evening nap, apparently to mate (because that's what ensued), so he is not the only one taking the initiative.

I want to touch on two points Willowy has made. Firstly, there is actually evidence that unaltered female dogs live longer: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/re...y-prolonged-life-women-and-dogs?rel=canonical. Interestingly this goes for women too. Increased life expectancy was associated with keeping the ovaries longer (women until the age of 50, rottweilers until the age of 6). Removing the female dog's ovaries within the first 4 years of life completely erased their survival advantage over male dogs. If this extends to cats there is a potential argument to keep my queen intact for a while even if she is eventually spayed.

With regard to feline life expectancy, I would really like to see a study controlling for indoor/outdoor status. I suspect unneutered cats are more likely to be allowed freely outdoors, which halves life expectancy, or so I've read.

Further, I'm concerned about quality of life as well as length of life. Although your aunt may not have problems with her ovariectomy there are many women who do, and sex hormones have a well-documented effect on sense of well-being, as well as protective effects against depression, anxiety, and dementia, etc. I suspect this extends to other mammals as well.

Secondly, it simply is not ethical to lie to people and cover up the truth about the complex health effects of neutering. For one thing, any consent given to a veterinarian who doesn't fully disclose the effects of the procedure is uninformed and therefore invalid. Furthermore I don't think it's necessary to present an over-simplified message in order to promote sterilization. If I were delivering the message, it would go something like this: (1) Surgical sterilization of pets is essential to control pet populations, otherwise many healthy animals cannot be homed and end up euthanized. (2) There are several methods of surgical sterilization, including vasectomy, tubal ligation, hysterectomy, castration, and total ovariohysterectomy. These procedures have different drawbacks (list drawbacks, including potential hormone-related behaviour problems) and the more drastic procedures (castration, OVH) may have health effects that are poorly understood. (3) You and your veterinarian are best qualified to decide which surgical procedure is appropriate for your pet given its behavioural traits, living situation, and health risks.

The emphasis remains on the crucial importance of sterilization, but presents the pet guardian with options and accurate information (including unknowns) instead of scare tactics and unfounded reassurances.

nibblerandco · Aug 20, 2015

By the way, the condition that unbred intact queens can get is "cystic endometrial hyperplasia". Here's a review article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16402514. (I haven't read it yet.)

stephenq · Aug 21, 2015

TLM123 said:
So is this a completely insane idea or could it work? Pros? Cons? Would love to hear what people think and if there is anyone out there who has a cat who has undergone a vasectomy?

A few thoughts, hope i'm not being redundant. And to the issue of being natural and safest for the cats, as a group, spayed/neutered cats live longer than unfixed. Males who fight get infections, abscesses and in general are more prone do death from infection and the perils of roaming (encountering other animals who will kill them,or cars) and with females, as others have said Pyometra as well as breast cancer are two big risks, and all of these risks outweigh the risk from anesthesia.

In terms of males marking, its not just that they spray, bad enough, but intact males urine smells HORRIBLE, like about the worst thing i've ever smelled except perhaps for a rotting dead animal.

Your questions are interesting and valid, but in the end i think putting your cats at small surgical risk without actually getting the benefits of true spay/neuter increases their risks without benefits.

nibblerandco · Aug 22, 2015

StephenQ, your reply is unfortunately a prime example of what I meant when I said spay/neuter arguments are canned and repetitive. You haven't really addressed any of my questions, other than to say they are "interesting and valid". Instead, you have again pulled out the same lines I have heard over and over and over and over and over again, NONE of which apply to my experience with my (mostly) intact cats. Please forgive my frustration (because I am extremely frustrated). I find talking to most people (and most vets -- though not those close to the cutting edge) about neutering is like talking to a computer switchboard with a small number of pre-programmed responses and minimal adaptability. In my opinion this is not a good sign.

Now to address your points: as I said, I would like to see a study that controls for the effect of indoor/outdoor status as opposed to neutering on life expectancy. I would also like to see the effects of neutering on male life expectancy differentiated from the effects of spaying on female life expectancy. There is some evidence from studies on other animals (humans and dogs) that neutering may increase male life expectancy while spaying decreases female life expectancy.

My cats are indoor-only: they don't roam or fight, so that concern is moot.

As I've already mentioned, my cat doesn't spray. Secondly, his urine REALLY DOES NOT SMELL THAT BAD. It really really doesn't. He creates significantly more stink when he poops than when he pees, as do my other cats. I certainly would not class his urine as "the worst thing I've ever smelled", not even close, and certainly nowhere near as bad as a rotting dead animal. The most retch-inducing stink I've ever encountered emanated from a pinkish-purple entity I discovered evolving in my fridge during grad school. The funky and slightly acrid scent of my boy's urine (which I only detect if I'm in the litter room when he goes) does not come anywhere close to that stench.

Again, how bad the urine smells depends on the cat: some cats stink, some don't. Some cats spray, some don't. Some queens wail in heat, some are silent callers. You can't paint all felines with the same brush, and you don't have to sterilize them all in the same way.

With regard to the risks of spaying, I am concerned about the risk of almost totally removing hormones that play a large and complicated role in multiple physiological processes. THIS is what I am weighing the risk of pyometra and mammary cancer against, NOT the risk of anethesia. If you read one of the links from my earlier post, it states, "The metabolic dysfunction that occurs in muscle after spaying, with bodyweight gain, or both, is not entirely understood, but may be partly attributed to lowgrade inflammation..." Metabolic dysfunction and lowgrade inflammation do not sound good to me. This is just one example of a negative side effect of spaying that is poorly understood.

Finally, you said that "...putting your cats at small surgical risk without actually getting the benefits of true spay/neuter increases their risks without benefits." As I've argued repeatedly, it is not exactly clear how the benefits of a true spay/neuter weigh against the poorly understood long-term risks. From my perspective, by having my cat vasectomized I have drastically reduced the probability that unplanned kittens will ever be conceived in my home again, and I have done so while minimally disrupting a complex physiological system, of which I have very little understanding, and which is him. This, to me, is well worth the risk.

I am NOT encouraging anyone to refrain from have their animals sterilized. PLEASE PLEASE HAVE YOUR PETS STERILIZED. Nor am I suggesting that cats should never be spayed or neutered -- to live with humans, some cats, but not all cats, will have to be neutered for behavioural reasons. But I cannot abide ideological propaganda, no matter how worthy or understandable the cause, overriding science and my rights as a pet guardian. As decision-makers for our pets we are entitled to options and to accurate information about those options, and sterilization is no exception. As concluded by a vet, "...we, as scientists and ethical professionals, should bring more to the table than this decades-old, propaganda-infused brew." (http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/May-2013/The-Peculiar-Politics-Of-Pet-Sterilization/) That is all I ask.

stephenq · Aug 22, 2015

NibblerAndCo said:
StephenQ, your reply is unfortunately a prime example of what I meant when I said spay/neuter arguments are canned and repetitive. You haven't really addressed any of my questions, other than to say they are "interesting and valid". Instead, you have again pulled out the same lines I have heard over and over and over and over and over again, NONE of which apply to my experience with my (mostly) intact cats. Please forgive my frustration (because I am extremely frustrated). I find talking to most people (and most vets -- though not those close to the cutting edge) about neutering is like talking to a computer switchboard with a small number of pre-programmed responses and minimal adaptability. In my opinion this is not a good sign. I'm sorry your frustrated, obviously you keep asking these questions and getting the same answers because these answers are a part of the collective wisdom if you will of the medical community. While keeping an intact male indoors may not lower his particular life expectancy, the bottom line why millions of cats and dogs are euthanized each year in the USA is because they aren't being spayed and neutered, and that's a fact.

Now to address your points: as I said, I would like to see a study that controls for the effect of indoor/outdoor status as opposed to neutering on life expectancy. I would also like to see the effects of neutering on male life expectancy differentiated from the effects of spaying on female life expectancy. There is some evidence from studies on other animals (humans and dogs) that neutering may increase male life expectancy while spaying decreases female life expectancy. If you find those studies please let us know. I'm not sure why spaying reduces female life expectancy and if it did I'd like to know why since it must offset death by breast cancer, uterine cancer and pyometra.

My cats are indoor-only: they don't roam or fight, so that concern is moot. Agreed with respect to roaming or fighting assuming they don't get out.

As I've already mentioned, my cat doesn't spray. Secondly, his urine REALLY DOES NOT SMELL THAT BAD. It really really doesn't. He creates significantly more stink when he poops than when he pees, as do my other cats. I certainly would not class his urine as "the worst thing I've ever smelled", not even close, and certainly nowhere near as bad as a rotting dead animal. The most retch-inducing stink I've ever encountered emanated from a pinkish-purple entity I discovered evolving in my fridge during grad school. The funky and slightly acrid scent of my boy's urine (which I only detect if I'm in the litter room when he goes) does not come anywhere close to that stench. Consider yourself lucky. I'm not sure how old your cat is but he seems young based on your description,and sexual maturity (and the smell) takes about a year to develop.

Again, how bad the urine smells depends on the cat: some cats stink, some don't. Some cats spray, some don't. Some queens wail in heat, some are silent callers. You can't paint all felines with the same brush, and you don't have to sterilize them all in the same way. I personally have smelled a lot of unneutered male cat pee and it has all stunk, but your milage may be different.

With regard to the risks of spaying, I am concerned about the risk of almost totally removing hormones that play a large and complicated role in multiple physiological processes. THIS is what I am weighing the risk of pyometra and mammary cancer against, NOT the risk of anethesia. If you read one of the links from my earlier post, it states, "The metabolic dysfunction that occurs in muscle after spaying, with bodyweight gain, or both, is not entirely understood, but may be partly attributed to lowgrade inflammation..." Metabolic dysfunction and lowgrade inflammation do not sound good to me. This is just one example of a negative side effect of spaying that is poorly understood. All of that may be of relevance and it may not be as I haven't seen the studies. I don't have data on lifespans on fixed versus unfixed animals. Note though that TCS is a pro spay/neuter site, so asking us for info on the opposite is a little like going into a church and asking about the advantages of being atheist. We might say that's interesting, but not have a lot of info for you. Cats live +/- 15 years in captivity. Some live longer, some shorter. The unfixed animals in the wild live shorter lives for unrelated reasons, but if there are studies on lifespans for indoor domesticated unfixed cats that would be interesting to see. But this site will support your POV and i've looked over it and its interesting. There is also an option to contact the vets in question: http://www.angryvet.com/ They also suggest that if you are going to spay/neuter that you wait a year+ to allow the cat do mature beforfe you remove those hormones.

Finally, you said that "...putting your cats at small surgical risk without actually getting the benefits of true spay/neuter increases their risks without benefits." As I've argued repeatedly, it is not exactly clear how the benefits of a true spay/neuter weigh against the poorly understood long-term risks. From my perspective, by having my cat vasectomized I have drastically reduced the probability that unplanned kittens will ever be conceived in my home again, and I have done so while minimally disrupting a complex physiological system, of which I have very little understanding, and which is him. This, to me, is well worth the risk.

I am NOT encouraging anyone to refrain from have their animals sterilized. PLEASE PLEASE HAVE YOUR PETS STERILIZED. Nor am I suggesting that cats should never be spayed or neutered -- to live with humans, some cats, but not all cats, will have to be neutered for behavioural reasons. But I cannot abide ideological propaganda, no matter how worthy or understandable the cause, overriding science and my rights as a pet guardian. As decision-makers for our pets we are entitled to options and to accurate information about those options, and sterilization is no exception. As concluded by a vet, "...we, as scientists and ethical professionals, should bring more to the table than this decades-old, propaganda-infused brew." (http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/May-2013/The-Peculiar-Politics-Of-Pet-Sterilization/) That is all I ask.

We may not have the info you seek but the link i gave above is certainly in the direction you are looking for.

nibblerandco · Aug 22, 2015

StephenQ, thanks for your consideration of my POV. I really appreciate it. I hope it's clear that my arguing is in no way personal. I just find the (in my opinion) over-simplification of the issue and various poorly-founded claims maddening. My major point is that the alternative to spay and neuter need not be millions of animals euthanized per year. It's not a black and white issue. (Few things are.) The alternative, where appropriate, could be vasectomy, tubals, zinc gluconate injections, ovary-sparing spays.......I hope you see what I mean.

The process of getting the vasectomy done was also protracted and painful. I faced some ridicule and outright rudeness along the way. Apparently some supposed professionals cannot consider the idea of vasectomizing a cat without tittering like schoolchildren. Even angryvet I think believes it's not possible to live with hormonal cats, which irritates me because, well -- here I am -- doing it.

The studies I referred to on female life expectancy are on women and dogs. Here's a link to a news article type summary of the results: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/re...y-prolonged-life-women-and-dogs?rel=canonical. The risks of reproductive and mammary cancers were reduced in "spayed" women, but mortality from other causes was higher. I don't know of any comparable studies in cats.

My tom is 1 year 7 months old, and he (unfortunately) sired a small litter at 10 months old (2 months after I asked my vet to vasectomize him, but I digress...) I don't have either of his daughters, which frankly breaks my heart. We could have brought one (but only one with us), but I just couldn't separate them. Instead we have Squib, who is pictured in my avatar. She can't replace either of our lost kittens, but she doesn't need to. She's a delight in her own multiple chirpy ways. We are having more claw and teeth issues with her (thankfully no skin broken yet), I'm sure because she doesn't have a kitten playmate.

Here is Buggles cleaning his daughters when they were about a week old:

PapaOnDuty4.JPG

nibblerandco
Aug 22, 2015

And here he is with them a couple days after his vasectomy:

100_1947.JPG

nibblerandco
Aug 22, 2015

You can see the surgical area and an incision above his left leg. You can also see that he has a touch of tom cat jowl, but not much.

This study found that testosterone levels in entire males peak at around a year, then dip, and then reach a higher peak at around 16-17 months: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9811369. If Buggles is following this trend he should be past his second peak by now, and his smell has never been intolerable at all. He and our queen both used to smell stronger when we were using clay litter, though, so the minimal odour could partly be because the litter we're using now (Cats Best) absorbs and clumps immediately. (And I've put down a deep layer so he doesn't dig to the bottom.)

denice · Aug 22, 2015

I know there has been a number of studies regarding at least delaying altering dogs. The ones that I seen the effects of neutering larger dogs produced the largest increase in some health issues. I just hadn't seen anything about kitties. It is easier with dogs because of only two heat cycles a year and also behaviors can be changed with training. I know many people have started delaying altering dogs particularly large dogs and some aren't altering them at all.

Willowy · Aug 22, 2015

Here is the study that found that spayed/neutered dogs live longer in general. I like that they fully discuss reasons and how they came to that conclusion. It's an interesting read: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0061082

Yes, it's become a bit of a fad to not neuter a dog :/. I know dog overpopulation isn't nearly as bad as cat overpopulation (mostly because dogs have more predictable reproductive cycles) but I still think it may end up being a bad thing for the dog population in general. I guess we'll see what comes of it as time passes.

I did take in a tomcat last year who wasn't smelly and was a true gentleman. If I were ever not going to neuter a cat it would have been him, but there was just no way I was going to throw all the cats into an uproar by introducing hormones into the mix so I did have him neutered before letting him meet the other cats. He was still under 2 years old though, so I don't know if his urine odor would have gotten worse with age. Because, phew, most tomcats' pee could peel paint :lol3:.

nibblerandco · Aug 23, 2015

there was just no way I was going to throw all the cats into an uproar by introducing hormones into the mix

I have to question this. I'm sure the other cats would have been disturbed by the appearance of a new cat, but I'm not convinced hormones would have made it any worse. My vet, when he was trying to sell me traditional spay/neuter, said, "They'll get along better without their hormones." To me this was a ridiculous reason to neuter because my cats got along incredibly well. (I had trouble getting pictures of them alone because they were always curled up together.) At subsequent appointments he kept asking how they were getting along, and I kept telling him they got on famously, and then he finally said, "Gee, maybe it's because of the hormones."

So he clearly doesn't really know how hormones affect feline social behaviour and was just promulgating some received wisdom, which, again, conveniently motivates the eradication of cat gonads, but lacks evidence.

When I was surfing UK shelter web sites looking at the cats (which I'd never be given because of the vasectomy), I saw two previously bonded brothers who hadn't got along since they were neutered and now needed separate homes. That's just one example, so it doesn't prove anything, but given my own happy, snuggly, bonded, hormonal cats I'm very suspicious.

Anything and everything to do with cat reproduction tends to be over-simplified and demonized on this site (and others). While I understand and support the need for sterilization, and that TCS promotes sterilization via spay/neuter, cat sexuality and reproductive behaviour, and cat hormones, are just NOT an enormous monolithic evil. They are subtle and complex and multifaceted, like the rest of reality. Can you see the pattern in what I'm asking? I wish people would not distort and oversimplify reality to support an agenda.

It's not necessary and eventually it may backfire, because evidence.

Heh, I just realized the photos I posted of my boy parallel so many photos I've seen of mama cats with their new kittens, and then later with older kittens and a spay incision. Except in this case it's papa cat with his vasectomy incision.

stephenq · Aug 23, 2015

NibblerAndCo said:
StephenQ, thanks for your consideration of my POV. I really appreciate it. I hope it's clear that my arguing is in no way personal. I just find the (in my opinion) over-simplification of the issue and various poorly-founded claims maddening. My major point is that the alternative to spay and neuter need not be millions of animals euthanized per year. It's not a black and white issue. (Few things are.) The alternative, where appropriate, could be vasectomy, tubals, zinc gluconate injections, ovary-sparing spays.......I hope you see what I mean.

@NibblerAndCo

Both links are very interesting, and I can see a case being made to at least delay sterilization, as a personal decision for a specific cat in a specific home. Obviously, the cat would need to be strictly indoor, and the owners need to be very responsible. I would maintain that for the time being, as a matter of public or semi-public policy, S/N is still needed and good for the population as a whole. While we are destroying millions of cats and dogs per year due to unwanted reproduction, until we get a better handle on that S/N remains an important tool. NYC used to euthanize 30,000 dogs and cats a year, and that number is down to about 8000, due to many reasons on many fronts one of them being TNR.

More studies are needed, because if it could be conclusively shown that intact cats live longer than S/N cats, that would be very important info, although i suspect (based on the various links I've seen and found on this topic) that delayed S/N may be as beneficial (or more so) than no S/N, particularly in females as they may get the lifelong protection from a few years of heat cycles, and then have the other risks that come later in life (caners, pyometra, etc) removed if they get spayed before too long has passed.

So I admit i was spouting the "company line" in the beginning of this thread, and while i continue to believe for now that S/N in general is good for the larger population particularly with attempts to reduce widespread euthanasia (when a mom cat has a litter and those kittens get homes, none of those homes adopt from a shelter, plus kittens are reproducing and dying on the "Street" all the time) I will say that I think there could be value in delayed S/N, and vasectomies in males, provided the owner has the wherewithal to deal with behavior issues and urine smell (which you are either immune to or lucky not to have).

So thank you for your POV, for motivating me to research it, and for helping me to adjust my own POV. And no i did not take your comments personally. You've made an important contribution to TCS, thank you. Oh and your cats are very cute!

nibblerandco · Aug 24, 2015

Thank you StephenQ! Your reply is way more than I had hoped for.

It truly makes me feel like this forum tolerates dissent and discussion, and as a result I feel welcome! Here I was afraid I was going to get booted off the site... Now I'll mosey along and see what my fellow cat people have to teach me...

I think your assessment above is pretty accurate; methods other than S/N will only work for particular owner/cat combinations. I'm lucky I don't have any real behavioural issues or strong smell to deal with. This discussion has helped me think the issue through as well, so thank you!

denice · Aug 24, 2015

I don't think anyone here disapproves of the choice you as a responsible pet owner have made. It is people that either allow their pets to reproduce unchecked or want to get rid of a kitty that has started to display the behaviors that do at least sometimes occur with intact kitties. We just want kitties to be in homes where they are loved and cared for.

stephenq · Aug 25, 2015

NibblerAndCo said:
Thank you StephenQ! Your reply is way more than I had hoped for.

It truly makes me feel like this forum tolerates dissent and discussion, and as a result I feel welcome! Here I was afraid I was going to get booted off the site... Now I'll mosey along and see what my fellow cat people have to teach me...

I think your assessment above is pretty accurate; methods other than S/N will only work for particular owner/cat combinations. I'm lucky I don't have any real behavioural issues or strong smell to deal with. This discussion has helped me think the issue through as well, so thank you!

The pleasure was all mine, and i'm glad about the whole thread, interesting and informative and helpful i'm sure to other members. I'm glad you made it to TCS and that you feel good about being here. I look forward to seeing more of your posts!

nibblerandco · Sep 6, 2015

I've just had a maintenance guy in who remarked that he couldn't smell the cats at all, in contrast to many "cat lovers'" homes he visits, so it's not just a matter of me being immune to my boy's smell. I think the key points are (1) he doesn't spray, (2) he's never smelled that strong in the first place, and (3) the litter is very thoroughly scooped every day (often more than once).

I keep finding interesting articles and opinion pieces. Here's another: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...nefits-spay-neuter-your-dog_20685-1.html?pg=1

I like this quote:

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' Myrna Milani, DVM, of TippingPoint Animal Behavior Consulting Services in Charlestown, New Hampshire, thinks back to the zeal with which she approached spay/neuter during the 1970s. “I could have won the Golden Gonad Award – there wasn’t a pair of testicles or ovaries that was safe from me,” she says. “Then I woke up one day and thought, ‘My God, what have I done?’ As a woman who went through puberty, who menstruated, who had sex, who had children, who was going through menopause, how in the world could I have been so naïve as to say that all ovaries did was affect reproduction? That they did not affect the entire body?

“Dogs are like us: We have testosterone and estrogen receptors all over our bodies – they are in our brains, lungs, bones . . . They affect learning, they affect memory,” Dr. Milani says. If we remove the organs that produce most of the body’s testosterone and estrogen before those hormones have an opportunity to exert their influence on the dog, we’re going to have to deal with the consequences down the road, she warns. '

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once again it's about dogs, but her point applies to cats too.

This one from the comments section is also good:

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' The irony is that, as a (human) reproductive health and population specialist, I think I should have known better. Such is the power of dogma. I cannot fathom the heartbreak that shelter workers and other rescuers endure, but I also know that lack of spay/neuter is far from the only reason (and probably not the main reason) for abandoned animals. Further, a simplistic message that spay/neuter is 100% safe and beneficial not only lacks credibility, but raises a number of ethical red flags. Embracing the wisdom and principles of informed consent would be one approach to a more credible, respectful, and effective approach to spay/neuter campaigns, one that can encompass concern for the health and welfare of individual animals. '

juntjoo · Oct 12, 2015

NibblerAndCo said:
I've just had a maintenance guy in who remarked that he couldn't smell the cats at all, in contrast to many "cat lovers'" homes he visits, so it's not just a matter of me being immune to my boy's smell. I think the key points are (1) he doesn't spray, (2) he's never smelled that strong in the first place, and (3) the litter is very thoroughly scooped every day (often more than once).

I keep finding interesting articles and opinion pieces. Here's another: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...nefits-spay-neuter-your-dog_20685-1.html?pg=1

I like this quote:

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' Myrna Milani, DVM, of TippingPoint Animal Behavior Consulting Services in Charlestown, New Hampshire, thinks back to the zeal with which she approached spay/neuter during the 1970s. “I could have won the Golden Gonad Award – there wasn’t a pair of testicles or ovaries that was safe from me,” she says. “Then I woke up one day and thought, ‘My God, what have I done?’ As a woman who went through puberty, who menstruated, who had sex, who had children, who was going through menopause, how in the world could I have been so naïve as to say that all ovaries did was affect reproduction? That they did not affect the entire body?

“Dogs are like us: We have testosterone and estrogen receptors all over our bodies – they are in our brains, lungs, bones . . . They affect learning, they affect memory,” Dr. Milani says. If we remove the organs that produce most of the body’s testosterone and estrogen before those hormones have an opportunity to exert their influence on the dog, we’re going to have to deal with the consequences down the road, she warns. '
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once again it's about dogs, but her point applies to cats too.

This one from the comments section is also good:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
' The irony is that, as a (human) reproductive health and population specialist, I think I should have known better. Such is the power of dogma. I cannot fathom the heartbreak that shelter workers and other rescuers endure, but I also know that lack of spay/neuter is far from the only reason (and probably not the main reason) for abandoned animals. Further, a simplistic message that spay/neuter is 100% safe and beneficial not only lacks credibility, but raises a number of ethical red flags. Embracing the wisdom and principles of informed consent would be one approach to a more credible, respectful, and effective approach to spay/neuter campaigns, one that can encompass concern for the health and welfare of individual animals. '

.

NibblerAndCo, and anytime else that knows for that matter, I'm looking for someone to do a vasectomy on cat. Could anyone offer a referral or advice on finding a doctor in my area who could do? Thanks much. This has been a great thread.

nibblerandco · Oct 13, 2015

juntjoo said:
.

NibblerAndCo, and anytime else that knows for that matter, I'm looking for someone to do a vasectomy on cat. Could anyone offer a referral or advice on finding a doctor in my area who could do? Thanks much. This has been a great thread.

@juntjoo I don't know where you're located but my advice is to inquire at a veterinary college. I wasted a lot of time phoning regular vets, none of whom offered the procedure (probably because they don't know how to do it). I finally found a surgeon who would do the vasectomy at a veterinary college (send me a message if you want the location and name of the college). Depending on your area vasectomies may be more popular (probably for dogs though) so you might have luck with regular vets.... Good luck!

byron17 · Dec 24, 2015

There is is no such thing as "human emotions", all mammals share same basic emotions. If you are a scientist and know about evolution, you will be quite aware of this. Sexual stimulation is not an instinct, it is a feeling shared by mammals in the same manner. Cats do enjoy sex!

Even if you go as far as something completely different like snails, they enjoy sex too. In fact, some snails have a sex dart that they insert in their mates during sexual coupling to achieve a more intense sexual experience. This is real. Do not take my word for it YouTube it!

Personally, I would prefer having my cat with balls than without. This is the only reason why I would like vets to do vasectomies rather than neutering.

Feline Vasectomy

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