Siamese?

I have two female kittens that were found abandoned. They look like like siamese but would like to hear opinions. Could be a mix as two orange tabbies were found with them. (they did not survive).

Here is Blue.

Oh wow gorgeous kitten! He appears to be long hair so would not be pure Siamese but she got the pointed gene from a siamese ancestor but it could be many generations in the past. From my understanding if both parents carry the point gene a pointed cat can be born. 

For look- a - likes her head shape is off for a Ragdoll or a Birman imo so I think she looks a little more like a Balinese but not exactly. She has a very unique head shape!

Can you tell us a little more the circumstances of her capture?

Franksmom said:

 so would not be pure Siamese but she got the pointed gene from a siamese ancestor but it could be many generations in the past. From my understanding if both parents carry the point gene a pointed cat can be born. 

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Yes, it was surely either two carriers, with random look (although the orange tabby siblings does prob gives us a hint of the parents looks).  Here happened it to be two pointed, not just the statistical one of four.   This is my guess.

Or possibly, a pointed cat mating with a carrier, which gives statistically half pointed kittens and the rest are carriers.

If the kitten is longhaired, both parents must also had genes for longhair, but dont need themselves be longhaired.

-  Are the siblings, alive and gone, longhaired??

Definitely some oriental derivation in there!  Some breeds (like the Tonkinese) are all born white with blue eyes, and their coloring/point contrast doesn't emerge until between 1-2 years. 

Regardless, looks like you are in for some FUN!

She is a very pretty, sweet looking little Seal Point Domestic ..._______   ( Well,  Franksmom thinks Longhair.  She may be right.  It can be hard to tell in young kittens.  I'm thinking she may actually be Shorthair with a plush coat that's on the long side for a Domestic Shorthair.  I guess time will tell )  .  Beautiful eye color!   I wonder if she will keep that stunning shade of blue.  Sometimes it does happen  by chance without selective breeding.    

She is definitely not Siamese or Balinese. (and I do have old style Siamese,  the Siamese of the original type,  now also called Thai in TICA, so I am aware that there are still some Siamese besides  the  modern  version.  Not many real ones,   but I know they do exist.  ) 

 I would be more willing to believe Blue may have had a recent Himalayan (pointed Persian) ancestor than  a recent Siamese ancestor.    I'm not saying I think she definitely has a lot of Himalayan in her ,    I'm just saying she looks closer to that than Siamese    ( She doesnt look like Himi in every way of course.   but the big round eyes that look almost turned a bit outward as a kitten do remind me of some  Himis )   .   

  I  do not see anything about Blue that looks Siamese except the pointed color pattern ,  which really does't mean much.  Well, it does mean there were  almost certainly some Siamese  on both sides,   but  Franksmom  is absolutely right that   they could have been many generations ago. Over the past 100+ years,  the gene for the pointed pattern has been crossed into other breeds and has  also been very widely spread through the population of random-bred "domestic shorthairs" and "domestic longhairs"  in the countries to which Siamese were imported.  

 As Franksmom and Stefan said,  non- pointed cats can be carrying the  pointed gene,  and if two of them mate and both happen to give it to a kitten,  the kitten will be pointed.  It can be passed down hidden through lots of generations of  black cats,  torties, tabbies, etc. --,  until two cats with that gene happen to breed together and then one or more pointed kittens can turn up in the litter --  but it doesn't mean they are Siamese or half Siamese or had any recent Siamese ancestors. Many of them are probably less than 0.0000001% Siamese.   

 

Things like head shape can be difficult to assess from one single front view photo of such a young kitten  but she definitely looks much more round headed and shorter muzzled than a typical Siamese.  ( The term "Applehead" as applied to Siamese was originally an insult  against  cats that were less extreme,  by breeders of the more extremely wedge headed cats ,  not an accurate description of the head shape of most real Siamese of any type.)    

Also from what I can see,  her body type looks like it will be more cobby and probably heavier boned. 

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 And I can easily see the coat does not look Siamese.   That's a crucial difference.  This little kitty has a more fluffy double coat.    Authentic Siamese of either type   (including authentic TICA Thai cats)  do not have a coat like that.   A Siamese kitten coat does look more fluffy than a Siamese adult ,   but not like this.   

She doesn't look Balinese either since a  their coat is longer, but still single. not poofed out like Blue's.  Their coat lies flat against the body so they almost look shorthair, except for the plumed tail.   

Blue and her sister sure were lucky kittens that some nice person came along

Thanks for the replies. I will have to inquire about the two deceased siblings. (they were not in my care at the time)

Personally, I wouldn't classify these kittens as long hair, I would say they were short haired. Their coat is very thick though and

they had a poor start and lacked good nutrition so we will see what happens.

I have attached a photo of her sibling who's face shape is not as long. The points are not as chocolate as my own

Seal point Himalayan. In some lights have a grey/brown hue.

They are both very petite in build, tiny paws etc.

Seeing her sister now with that face,   Himi mix is actually more likely than I even thought at first from the first kitten's coat and eye  shape / eye set.     They are like a shorthair version of a Himi.  especially this shorter faced one.      I really do think they are shorthairs with a very plush coat.     but as you said they got such poor nutrition at first.  that may make a difference. 

Re her points looking sort of greyish --  the point color has not fully developed yet, because she is so young.   They're born white and then  color gradually comes in --  starts on the edges of the ears and the nose , then the tail.  The  stockings  can take longer to fill in.  and the mask can take a while to totally fill in.    

Your lovely cat in the avatar photo   looks like a seal point  like my girl in my avatar pic.  .....   Is she a pedigree and is registered as a chocolate point?    because those points would be very very very dark for a chocolate point.   They're ideally supposed to have milk chocolate points,   but some of them do get darker than that.  but not usually THIS dark.  She looks like a very nicely colored seal.  Even if she is registered  it might be they got the color wrong if she was slow to develop her points.     Chocolate points also have brownish-rose paw pads.    

My kittens have that same toy!   they love it! 

Thank you Maewkaew for your insights. I wasn't sure if the eyes of the  kitten in the first photo had the outward look (I call them googly eyes)

because she was young. I find that kittens go thru that googly eye look at 2 - 4 weeks. If that makes sense

Although we don't know for sure their age, the vet aged them at four weeks.

The cat in my avatar is my Shiloh. He was rescued from a breeder who was more of a "kitty mill". They were all extremely sick with

upper respiratory, fleas and ringworm. She had lilac points, seal points, black and white, calicos etc

So, lord knows his genetic background...  That said...I think he is quite beautiful

Sorry I got his gender wrong.    Shiloh definitely looks like a seal point.,  and as I said a very nice colored one with good pattern contrast.  .   He might be something like a Himalayan x Ragdoll mix.  or just very non standard Himalayan.    He's a lovely cat and I'm so glad he ended up in a good home.  In  that photo it looks like he is VERY well cared for now!   

Yeah other kittens can certainly have the googly eye look,   but it is  more common in Persian  and Exotic Shorthair kittens than in   kittens in general.  so that with that coat type already had me thinking of Himi,  then when I saw the other kitten that showed angles where i could see the head shape more,  ... well   I would bet these 2 kittens have  Himalayan (pointed Persian) not too far back. 

What's interesting is ending up with that deeper eye color.  But sometimes this happens even in feral moggies.  just by chance.  

btw the mother is a tortie or tortie point.  

So a slight update. I believe their eyecolour is actually getting lighter. Especially the  small one. They are also getting distinct tabby patterns. Which confirms the two tabbies

found with them are true siblings.

A few interesting developmental and genetic things going on.  ( well interesting to some of us anyway) .

Eye color getting lighter .   Well,  that's not really surprising since they still are in the process of changing from the dark blue eye color of young kittens.   In around 6 weeks it will probably be close to the shade of blue that they'll have most of their life.     Himalayans do tend to have paler blue eyes than most pinted g

The tabby markings.. I can see why it would seem like a confirmation that those red tabbies were their littermates.    but it actually it's  not,  although  I would think those were almost certainly their littermates .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    I suspect none of those kittens are actually Agouti  .  ( " true tabbies" )    Basically.  every cat has a genetic code for some kind of tabby pattern;  mackerel, classic (blotched, marble), spotted and ticked   are the main categories.    But in cats with black-based pigment,   it takes a separate gene called " Agouti"  to make that tabby pattern show up distinctly , and turn a solid black cat into a " brown tabby "  ( which is really genetically black

    2 things going on here .    x

 In your little kittens who look sort of like pointed Zots,   I suspect what you are seeing  is they're getting a " ghost tabby"  pattern.  they  are almost certainly NOT tabbies.  

The red tabbies may not have been   genetically " true tabbies"  even though in appearance they were tabbies.  Red or cream cats  appear as tabbies whether or not they have the Agouti gene that makes a tabby pattern show up distinctly in black-based pigment.  Phenotypically they were tabbies.    

 The tabby patterns youre seeing come in are most likely what's called " ghost tabby"  

Levi68 said:

So a slight update. I believe their eyecolour is actually getting lighter. Especially the  small one. They are also getting distinct tabby patterns. Which confirms the two tabbies

found with them are true siblings.

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