The difference between IBD and IBS

I've never heard of Rayne Clinical Nutrition, but the food looks similar to Vet-Concept, though it has slightly more in the way of vegetables. The Vet-Concept has 3% vegetables, and the canned combinations Mogli gets are rabbit & potatoes, kangaroo & parsnips, reindeer & potatoes; the Cat Sana is horse & parsnips. There's also duck & chicory, which he doesn't get because it's poultry. It's paté, but not very mushy. The dry food sounds very similar - Mogli gets a little bit of that as a snack.

I had to fax a prescription, though the vets' office could have done it directly, too. The vet said they'd probably ask for a new one every few months, especially for the Cat Sana, and to just call and she'd fax them a new one. I can order through the vets' office, but it's faster for me to do it online and have it sent straight to the house.

I wonder what they mean by "tray", and how many trays are fed per day? Mogli gets a 200 g. (7 ounce) can a day, which runs around $1.93 when I purchase trays of six cans of one flavor.

It might be easier for future members if there's one thread about IBD/IBS, but those who search in the Nutrition forum only for food ideas might miss this one. A Nutrition thread like "What (commercial/prescription) foods have worked/ have you tried for your IBD cats?" could be really useful for people going through the trial and error period.

GoHolistic said:

Okay, so by accident I came across a company today called Rayne Clinical Nutrition (http://www.raynenutrition.com/) that has locations in Missouri USA and Australia. Have you ever heard of them? They have an interesting selection of special wet diets for felines, especially their Kangaroo & Squash and Rabbit & Squash formulas under "Maintenance Diets." They even have their own Rabbit & Sweet Potato dry food. The only setback is that they are only available by veterinary prescription.

I'm struggling a bit with diets for my two cats with intestinal issues. Should I start a new thread about this? I've already done the countless hours of research, and I generally know what would be best for them, but right now I'm stuck and feeling a bit down about it.

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This food sounds great and I really want to get some for my 17 year old dog with elevated liver enzymes. I wonder if they will ship to Canada. I will try to get my vet to look into it for me. 

Denice said:

Wouldn't your vet be willing to wright a prescription?  I assume you are talking about canned food rather than raw.

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I don't know, but I think they would be willing if they knew it wouldn't harm the cat. I'd have to talk to the vet about it if I'm serious about trying this food. And yes, I believe it is a type of canned food.

jcat said:

I wonder what they mean by "tray", and how many trays are fed per day? Mogli gets a 200 g. (7 ounce) can a day, which runs around $1.93 when I purchase trays of six cans of one flavor.

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My guess is that a tray is a little plastic tray with a foil top lid...kind of like how the Whiskas wet food is packaged.

jcat said:

It might be easier for future members if there's one thread about IBD/IBS, but those who search in the Nutrition forum only for food ideas might miss this one. A Nutrition thread like "What (commercial/prescription) foods have worked/ have you tried for your IBD cats?" could be really useful for people going through the trial and error period.

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I think I will do this, since I still have questions about commercial/prescription diets for IBD cats. The raw thread I started is something separate, IMO. I'm sorry if I've hijacked this thread! To the moderator, feel free to transfer the last few posts over to the new thread when its started.

First of all, fascinating thread. :nod:

Just wanted to jump in regarding this:

Franksmom said:

...I know it sounds weird but in Frank's case I think it was caused by his lack of ability to digest fur. I never thought problem with hairballs until recently but he always had issues eating until he was shaved. I would never have been able to get him to eat a more species appropriate diet until I shaved him because he barely ate anything. I tried since he was a kitten to get him to do more than just lick the gravy from wet food- I spent years hand feeding him wet food! He never even ate that much dry but at least he got enough calories to survive. At one point I though he had cerebral palsy because his weirdness while he ate. In retrospect I think he was always nauseous because he would always perch in rigid postures and have problems chewing his food which he no longer does. I did take him to the vet a few times about his weird eating stance and the only thing they said was he may have cerebral palsy but I shouldn't worry because he was still a healthy weight.  I also think he may have vomited more regularly than I thought he did because we always thought it was my sisters cat who puked every where but again in retrospect it could have been Frank doing it.  I know a lot of ragdolls have IBD issues and I wonder if their long fur has anything to do with it. I also have read chronic hairball issues are very prevalent in IBD cats. 

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He probably wasn't interested in food because he didn't feel well. And I suspect that his inability to pass his ingested fur is far more likely to reflect the problem, rather than being the cause of the problem.

There may be a genetic issue with ragdolls and IBD, but I doubt it has to do with their long fur. It makes no sense that in nature a long haired-cat would have any more problems passing fur than a short haired cat, or they wouldn't survive without human intervention. :dk: Again, I think hairballs reflect a GI motility problem: they're not the cause of one.

LDG said:

First of all, fascinating thread.

Just wanted to jump in regarding this:
He probably wasn't interested in food because he didn't feel well. And I suspect that his inability to pass his ingested fur is far more likely to reflect the problem, rather than being the cause of the problem.

There may be a genetic issue with ragdolls and IBD, but I doubt it has to do with their long fur. It makes no sense that in nature a long haired-cat would have any more problems passing fur than a short haired cat, or they wouldn't survive without human intervention.

Again, I think hairballs reflect a GI motility problem: they're not the cause of one.

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That's the way the vet that finally sorted things out with Patches explained it to me.  She said that the thickening of the lining in the digestive system affected motility.  That was why Patches would have constipation.  That isn't the most common problem with IBD which I think is part of the reason that the other vets didn't treat for it.  The extra fur that comes with shedding season can overwhelm an already compromised digestive system.  I think that is why the two short mild flares that Patches has had in the last 2 1/2 years even with the steroid have happened in the spring.  I am hoping that the Miralax next spring will help him get through it without getting sick again.  These flares are nothing compared to the ones he used to have and I am thankful for that.

LDG said:

First of all, fascinating thread.

Just wanted to jump in regarding this:
He probably wasn't interested in food because he didn't feel well. And I suspect that his inability to pass his ingested fur is far more likely to reflect the problem, rather than being the cause of the problem.

There may be a genetic issue with ragdolls and IBD, but I doubt it has to do with their long fur. It makes no sense that in nature a long haired-cat would have any more problems passing fur than a short haired cat, or they wouldn't survive without human intervention.

Again, I think hairballs reflect a GI motility problem: they're not the cause of one.

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Could very well be, but I think one thing to consider is that ragdolls are an entirely human created breed and they may lack the ability to pass hair that other more naturally occurring long haired cats have. Their ancestry included the short haired Siamese and the Burmese mixed with the Persian and Birman. I think the other thing that is different about the ragdoll and other pure bred cats like the persian is that they have been bred selectively to have "fluffy" coats which are more extreme in appearance than many domestic longhairs. I just wonder how the human intervention in these breeds may have caused issues with their natural ability to deal with ingested hair because these cats have more hair than they should because of selective breeding?  The other interesting thing about long haired cats is that there are no variations of long haired African wild cats so there is a lot of debate how they developed. There is a debate whether they first appeared in Europe in the 14th century or as late as the 16th century. 

I do find it odd that shaving had such a huge effect on him. I had been working with his diet for years and the shaving was the only thing that actually helped him. I may be totally off in my theory about the hair but I think it is kind of an interesting hypothesis that I can't help but think about because of his dramatic results. Though I think you are probably correct in your assessment.

My cats are young DSHs and hairballs were a terrible problem here. I'm sure genetics play a part in it, but I wonder about some of the pet food? Could that be part of the cause?

I think that there are many possible causes.  Many cats respond very well to diet change so for many cats the food they are eating is at least part of the problem.  I know wet food is better for them than kibble and many people have had success with a raw diet.

I totally think species-inappropriate foods contribute to compromised GI systems and motility issues. Also, highly processed diets certainly do in people, so why not in cats too? :dk:

In fact, the diet Mogli's on is case-in-point. He's being fed potato - something a cat wouldn't naturally eat - specifically to slow down his rate of digestion. This is his specific need - but in otherwise healthy cats, food is out of their stomachs within two hours, and out the other end in about 12 hours. Their digestive tracts are so short and so rapid, their feces still smells like protein to dogs, who often eat it because of that. The NRC (Nutrition Research Council) book (on which AAFCO nutrient recommendations are based) explains the process - and it seems part of what contributes to motility issues is free-feeding. Cats "need" the hunger pangs to trigger gastric emptying. They don't discuss this in relation to hairballs, but I can see that being a factor in the ability to pass hair. Without ever triggering that gastric emptying, hair can sit in the stomach, and then it starts that process of getting bound up by the fats eaten, which collects more hair, etc.

Franksmom, see I know nothing about breeds - had no clue ragdolls were a completely human created breed. So yeah, could be the "non-natural" hair is a factor. :dk:

But I still think species-inappropriate foods, highly processed diets, and the way we feed them further contribute to the problem. They may not be the cause, but they don't help...

What I mean is are some foods causing damage to some cats?

Edited to add: exactly my thoughts too, LDG. My cats were all a year old or younger when I switched them to raw yet still had the hairball problem on raw. I can't help but to wonder about permanent damage.

peaches08 said:

My cats are young DSHs and hairballs were a terrible problem here. I'm sure genetics play a part in it, but I wonder about some of the pet food? Could that be part of the cause?

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Yes totally agree it seems species inappropriate diets play a big role in hairballs. Here is Dr. Pierson's take on hairballs (http://catinfo.org/#Hairballs) and she recommends preventing the ingestion by constant brushing or shaving in severe cases (I furminated frank for years without any effect). The article seems to imply that while diet does play a big role in helping the digestion it is not enough in a lot of cases and you must prevent them from ingesting the hair in the first place. This is kind of why I wonder if some cats just can't handle hair in their digestive track? Obviously in the wild these cats would not survive but I do wonder if it is kind of an allergy that has developed since domestication.

I think hairball issues are not an issue every cat that has IBD and might be a small minority. However, I do strongly feel Frank has some sort intolerance to ingesting fur that possibly could be considered an allergy of sorts. I can' t empirically prove it but for my observations of his case I cannot rule it out. I am a big believer that allergies are sometimes caused by environmental factors for example the huge increase in peanut allergies in the last few decades. My sister has a peanut allergy and is the first person to ever have an allergy to nuts in our family. The  environmental  factors causing some sort of allergy in cats could very well be connected to inappropriate food being fed to cats for the last few generations. It would be interesting for someone to do an archival study on vet records and see if hairballs have increased over the years and if it correlates with commercial pet food being adopted.

I was thinking it would be interesting to hear from Carolina on the topic because she has ragdolls with IBD and hairball issues. 

peaches08 said:

What I mean is are some foods causing damage to some cats?

Edited to add: exactly my thoughts too, LDG. My cats were all a year old or younger when I switched them to raw yet still had the hairball problem on raw. I can't help but to wonder about permanent damage.

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In terms of IBS and IBD? I don't know. It's obviously easier to find a link to foods and liver problems. I would also think it is cat-specific for that, being part genetic, and potentially related to what stressors (like e. coli, coccidia, giardia - stuff that may have damaged the intestines or colon already, etc.) cats' GI systems have already been exposed to....

Franksmom said:

I was thinking it would be interesting to hear from Carolina on the topic because she has ragdolls with IBD and hairball issues. 

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Yep, first thing that came to my mind. And she started having several of them shaved, too. :nod:

LDG said:

In terms of IBS and IBD? I don't know. It's obviously easier to find a link to foods and liver problems. I would also think it is cat-specific for that, being part genetic, and potentially related to what stressors (like e. coli, coccidia, giardia - stuff that may have damaged the intestines or colon already, etc.) cats' GI systems have already been exposed to....

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It's hard enough with humans to identify causation of IBS. Mine is inflammatory and idiopathic. Don't know if it is related to SLE or if it is a completely separate issue. Psychosomatic? For myself I have to say no. As far as my cats, I doubt it.

I think there could certainly be a permanent thickening of the lining of the digestive tract that goes beyond transient inflammation.  Patches had his first flare when he was only 18 months old and they continued until he was finally diagnosed 6 years later.  If there is a permanent thickening then there will always be problems no matter what is done to control the condition.

LDG said:

Franksmom, see I know nothing about breeds - had no clue ragdolls were a completely human created breed. So yeah, could be the "non-natural" hair is a factor.

.

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Ragdolls are not at all natural, so much so that the woman that created them claimed they were both the result of government testing and aliens haha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragdoll). I actually have two different "supernatural" breeds because Birman's creation story is that they were transformed in a monastery while praying for their dead monk master is front of a buddha statue. 

I really want to write a conference paper on the mythologies surrounding cat breeds some day! 

Denice said:

I think there could certainly be a permanent thickening of the lining of the digestive tract that goes beyond transient inflammation.  Patches had his first flare when he was only 18 months old and they continued until he was finally diagnosed 6 years later.  If there is a permanent thickening then there will always be problems no matter what is done to control the condition.

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:nod: You just made me remember the issues of length of the intestinal tract, and muscle tone/elasticity.

I don't actually have the Pottenger raw fed cats study (what he was studying was raw food vs cooked food and its impact on health - extrapolating to humans, he wasn't studying "cats" per say, but using cats for the study), but Michele Barnhard writes about it in her book, "Raising Cats Naturally." She notes that "The cats in Pottenger's study were used to study the effects of heat-processed food to benefit human nutrition. The latest and most rigorous scientific standards were applied for these experiments with their protocol consistently observed. Each cat's clinical chart included notes for its entire life. At the end of 10 years, 600 of 900 cats studied had complete, recorded health histories."

She writes,

I have been hypothesizing for some time about commercial food causing the intestinal tract of cats to lengthen and lose tone and elasticity. This would result in both the diarrhea and constipation that has become quite chronic in cats of all ages. I can understand an older cat taken off a commercial food diet and put on a raw diet having constipation issues. The commercial diet would provide a great deal of bulk resulting in voluminous, soft stool. Bukly, soft stool passing through the cat's intestinal tract instead of more fibrous matter (such as bone and hide that is normal in a cat's natural diet), would, in my opinion, stretch the intestinal tract and cause it to lose elasticity. A properly balanced raw diet provides little bulk and contains mostly digestible ingredients resulting in little stool production...

The answer is right under my nose in Pottenger's Cats. Pottenger speaks of the cooked meat diet causing allergies, among other things, in cats. First deficient generation allergic cats produced second-generation kittens with greater incidence of allergies and by the third generation, the incidence was almost 100 percent.

Pottenger stated in his study that the intestinal tracts of the allergic cats proved particularly remarkable at autopsy. Measurements of the length of the gastrointestinal tracts of several hundred normal and deficient adult cats were compared. The measurement started at the epiglottis and included the esophagus, the stomach, duodenum, jejunum and the colon to the rectum. In the average normal cat, the intestinal tract was approximately 48 inches long; in some of the allergic cats, the intestinal tracts measured as long as 72 to 80 inches. Those elongated tracts lacked tissue tone and elasticity.

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(The emphasis is NOT mine, but written that way in the book).

So IMO, as IBD/IBS are becoming more prevalent in people, they become more prevalent in cats; the more highly processed a diet we eat, the more in successive generations have issues....

I grew up on a farm and the cats that we had were outdoor barn cats.  Of course I am not advocating cats should be outdoor cats but the primary food source for them was what they could catch and what they could steal out of the dogs food which wasn't much.  Those cats lived for years and always appeared healthy as did the dogs.  The dogs did get kibble but they also got a lot of table scraps and when they were young and fast enough the occasional rabbit.  It was years after I left home before the last childhood dog that I had died.  My dad had him put down because his arthritis had gotten bad and he was almost blind and deaf.  He was a stray but I know that dog had to be close to 20 and he was not a small dog.

This thread has turned into a very interesting conversation. I do think that ingesting hair can be very aggravating for a cat who already has digestive issues. It acts like trigger.

LDG said:

So IMO, as IBD/IBS are becoming more prevalent in people, they become more prevalent in cats; the more highly processed a diet we eat, the more in successive generations have issues....

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Yes! I was just thinking this. In a lot of respects, I believe in evolution - that species evolve and change based on environmental and sociological factors. Cats in the wild may have the ability to digest the fur or get rid of it in some way, but domesticated cats are no longer able to do that because of what we made of them. Heck, I think humans will eventually developed strong, huge thumbs because of all the text messaging we do!

Denice said:

I think there could certainly be a permanent thickening of the lining of the digestive tract that goes beyond transient inflammation.  Patches had his first flare when he was only 18 months old and they continued until he was finally diagnosed 6 years later.  If there is a permanent thickening then there will always be problems no matter what is done to control the condition.

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That's my understanding, but I can't find the text that discussed it among the multitude of IBD bookmarks I have, except for the part about neutrophilic IBD quoted down below.

I did find these regarding diet; I remember bookmarking the first text because it discusses motility and malabsorption:

The Eight Principles of Therapy of Canine Inflammatory Bowel Disease

The precise immunologic mechanisms of canine and feline IBD have not yet been determined, but a prevailing hypothesis for the development of IBD is the loss of immunologic tolerance to the normal bacterial flora or food antigens. Accordingly, dietary modification may prove useful in the management of canine and feline IBD. Several nutritional strategies have been proposed including novel proteins, hydrolyzed diets, anti-oxidant diets, medium chain triglyceride supplementation, low fat diets, modifications in the omega-6/omega-3 ( -6/ -3) fatty acid ratio, and fiber supplementation. Of these strategies, some evidence-based medicine has emerged for the use of novel protein, hydrolyzed, and fiber-supplemented diets.

Food sensitivity reactions were suspected or documented in 49% of cats presented because of gastroenterologic problems (with or without concurrent dermatologic problems) in a prospective study of adverse food reactions in cats. Beef, wheat, and corn gluten were the primary ingredients responsible for food sensitivity reactions in that study, and most of the cats responded to the feeding of a chicken- or venison-based selected-protein diet for a minimum of 4 weeks. The authors concluded that adverse reactions to dietary staples are common in cats with chronic gastrointestinal problems and that they can be successfully managed by feeded selected-protein diets. Further support for this concept comes from studies in which gastroenterologic or dermatologic clinical signs were significantly improved by the feeding of novel proteins.

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Inflammatory Bowel Disease In Your Cat
Feline Chronic Diarrhea And Vomiting

Change in your cat's diet is the best place to begin when dealing with any long-term digestive problem. In an occasional lucky cat, it is all that need be done. But in most cats, it will be only part of a successful plan to deal with IBD.

Many highly digestible, hypoallergenic and bland diets are commercially available or can prepared them for your cat at home .These diets should be free of preservatives, additives and coloring agents. They should either contain an unusual protein source such as rabbit, venison, cottage cheese or duck or contain proteins that are hydrolyzed into small non-antigenic component molecules (z/d). It can take up to several months to see improvement.

Sometimes high fiber diets are helpful. Again, they are available commercially as diabetic and weight reduction formulas (OM, r/d etc). You can also add fiber to your current diet. ... Increased fiber does not help all pets with IBD. Some do better when the fiber content of their diet is actually reduced.

Some cats with IBD have less diarrhea when the fat content (or source) in their diet is reduced. High fiber diets, designed for pet to lose weight are also lower in fat.

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So Mogli has gotten a combination of novel proteins, low fat diet and fiber supplementation in one type of prescription food, which seems to be working for him, but presumably wouldn't work for some others.

This article is good for general info about symptoms, tests, types of IBD in cats and treatments: Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD)

This is the part that applies to EHEC:

Neutrophilic IBD. This is characterized by increased levels of neutrophils in the lining of the intestinal tract. Neutrophils are a type of immune cell designed to fight bacterial infections, also known as intestinal bacterial overgrowth (IBO).

o IBO. In a normal healthy intestinal tract, 90% of the bacteria present are 'good' bacteria that serve a useful purpose, and 10% are pathogenic 'bad' disease causing bacteria. In IBO this balance shifts, and the pathogenic 'bad' bacteria can reach levels up to 90%, and the 'good' bacteria are decreased to 10% of overall types. If this infection is present for a long enough period of time, enough damage happens that the inflammation can become permanent, resulting in neutrophilic IBD, and while antibiotics can temporarily suppress the 'bad' bacteria, they will return as soon as antibiotics are stopped.

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I have to admit that this whole experience has made me extremely leery of raw diets for kittens, which is what both the regular vet and the internist suspect caused Mogli's problems in the first place. To quote one, "This is why you should never feed kittens raw." I didn't, and the shelter didn't, but we don't know what he was given by (or stole from - always a possibility with this little glutton) his first owners. Raw meat, raw milk, raw vegetables?