FIV+ cats and diet. Any other FIV+ cat parents have input?

Chowder is 2 years old and according to my vet he is in great health at the moment.  I was wondering if other people with FIV+ cats could weigh in on what they feed their cats.  I'm currently on a very, very small budget as I work for Starbucks as a barista, but am currently applying for better paying jobs actually using my degree.

Right now Chowder gets the following:

Wet food:

Weruva Funk in the Trunk (chicken/pumpkin)

Weruva Fowl Ball (chicken/turkey)

Nutro Max Cat Chicken

Nutro Max Cat Turkey

Tiki Cat Ahi Tuna

Tiki Cat Tuna in Crab Consomme

BFF various kinds

Dry food:

Nutri Source Pure Vita Salmon 

Other:

Greenies treats

Pet Naturals Daily Best Multivitamin

I try to limit the fish based wet food to 2 times a week maximum, but he likes it and it's a way to cut down the food costs.  I would feed the Weruva all the time, but it's just not economically possible for me.  Nutro is in there to keep the fish down and also cut down on costs.  The dry he only gets 1/4 cup a day, so I think the fish in there is probably okay.

Can anyone offer advice on how to make a better diet for him without breaking the bank?  Also, should I be giving him Lysine supplements?  The vet and the rescue I got him from said it was not needed as he's young and in good health, but I've read it can help.

I'd love advice and constructive criticism. 

Hi and welcome to TCS! Thanks for adopting Chowder. He looks adorable and sounds like a total cuddlebug.

Here is a thread with a lot of terrific info on FIV by one of our most experienced members. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/259351/how-i-am-treating-chumleys-fiv

That looks like a pretty good diet to me. :nod: If the greenies treats aren't upsetting his tummy, then go ahead. They caused issues in my cats.

I have one FIV+ kitty, Chumley. I feed him a raw food diet. But a high protein, grain-free, low carb diet is just fine. I just wanted more control over ingredients, and I wanted my cats to have fresh food. Just like people do best with food that is less processed, so do cats. :nod:

FYI, Tiki cat now has chicken foods, no fish!


But an all wet food diet is definitely best for any cat, if possible. Can you afford to drop the dry entirely? :dk:

I do supplement Chumley's diet with probiotics daily (well, I give them to all my cats. I use Nexabiotic 20 strain, 1/2 capsule 2x a day). The GI tract accounts for about 70% of immune system function, and using probiotics helps keep it ... happy. :lol3: Here's a discussion with links: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262587/probiotics-search-human-grade-and-cfus

I also give Chumley 250mg of lactoferrin daily - two weeks on, two weeks off. I also give him 10mg of ubiquinol daily, also two weeks on, two weeks off. Here is a list of other proactive things you can do for FIV+ kitties: http://www.fivtherapy.com/bdltimetherapy.htm For doses, this is the section: http://www.fivtherapy.com/bdmeds.htm

I can't afford the Thymus peptides recommended (Thym-Uvocal), but I do give Chumley this thymus capsule sprinkled on his food daily:
I did buy the Olive Leaf Extract. I haven't figured out how to give it to Chumley yet. I may just pill him with it. But it is VERY bitter, and I haven't figured out how to hide it in anything. :lol3:

Basically, read through Bud's site, and pick and choose from the recommendations for the asymptomatic phase. Most people don't supplement anything, but I wanted to be more proactive. I was already giving all my cats a salmon oil supplement (for omega 3s), a probiotic, and ubiquinol (the active form of CoQ10), and decided to add lactoferrin and thymus to Chum's diet. Oh - and maybe the olive leaf. :lol3:

Thanks for the link!

LDG said:

I have one FIV+ kitty, Chumley. I feed him a raw food diet. But a high protein, grain-free, low carb diet is just fine. I just wanted more control over ingredients, and I wanted my cats to have fresh food. Just like people do best with food that is less processed, so do cats.

 

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Really?  I looked into doing a raw diet for Chowder and I had a lot of people telling me FIV+ cats can't have raw food because their immune systems couldn't fight off any possible bacteria in the food like a normal cat could.  Have I been misinformed?  If so, I'd love to look into adding some raw food to Chowder's diet.

Yes, the common thinking is don't feed an immune-compromised kitty a raw diet. But that makes no sense to me.

Actually, I thought raw was dangerous for ANY cat, and used to argue against feeding raw. But when we rescued Chum, he was a complete health mess. We rescue for years, so work very closely with several different vets. They were unable to help resolve his problems. So we found a holistic vet, who had him fixed up inside of a couple of weeks.

The first thing she did when we met with her was review his diet. We were free feeding kibble and giving them two meals of canned food a day. She basically freaked, and said NO KIBBLE, and explained why. (http://www.catinfo.org has an excellent explanation). That's when I started researching nutrition.

She wanted Chumley on a raw diet as soon as he was healthier. It took me a year of arguing and research, but I finally came around and decided to feed raw. :lol3:

And seeing the difference in my cats - and Chumley - I whole heartedly think ANY cat should be on raw. I began the transition to raw when I had a cat with a massive mass in his stomach (large cell lymphoma) still on chemo (though near the end of his treatments). I have a cat with an autoimmune disease that causes anemia - it is now in remission, and his HCT is 45%. Chumley is so freaking healthy right now (knock wood) it's almost ridiculous.

Yes, there are risks. But I take steps to mitigate them: the probiotics, for instance. I have to go update the thread to which vball91 provided a link, because I have switched probiotics (for a reason). Yes, our supermarket meat may have salmonella, e. coli or clostridium - but when on a raw diet, their systems are far more acidic (they way they are SUPPOSED to be), which is a natural defense; and probiotics further help prevent any problems. I've only been feeding raw for 1.5 years now, but we've never had a problem with any food borne illness.

I also switched because it costs a lot less to feed raw than to feed high quality canned. :nod:

FYI, you can safely feed 15% of his diet unbalanced. So you can just offer him some meat as a treat to see if he likes it. If he does, and you decide you want to feed raw, we can help in the raw feeding forum.

Oh - the two traditional vets we work most closely with. One was very skeptical, one "gets" that our cats are obligate carnivores and should do just fine on raw, but had no clients feeding cats raw. She was just interested, really, in seeing what would happen. Both are amazed at how well ALL our cats are doing.

And Lazlo, our cancer survivor, went into complete remission because of the chemo. He was diagnosed a little over 2 years ago, and is still going strong - SO healthy, and still in remission! (Again, knock wood). Average remission is 9 months. Has the raw diet contributed to this? It is thought that carbs feed cancer.... :dk:

Hm, okay. What piece of meat would you suggest trying to see if he likes it? Something like a chicken wing or something more like a chicken liver?

Well, it's not necessary to feed raw. But if you're not vegan or vegetarian, just a bite-sized piece of whatever meat you make for yourself, before seasoning and cooking. A small bit of chicken breast or thigh is always a good option. See if he likes just meat before trying any bones.

Will do. I actually am a vegetarian , but my fiance eats meat so we have some chicken breasts in the house right now. I'll try giving him a tiny piece tomorrow.

Another quick thought: it doesn't have to be a 100% raw diet, just as right now you're not feeding a 100% canned diet. I would drop the kibble if you can, but a number of people feed a combination of canned and raw foods, and see the benefits of raw from feeding only a portion of the diet raw. :nod:

In fact, because FIV+ kitties tend to have issues with their gums and teeth, even just replacing those greenies treats with chicken gizzards as treats (VERY chewy) would be far healthier for his teeth and gums.

I think the only way I could financially drop the kibble altogether is if I also included some non-grain free foods like the Trader Joe's canned food which I know contains rice but would help with my budget and is apparently decent. In your opinion would it be better to keep quality kibble such as the Nutri Source Pure Vita I'm feeding now or would it be better to feed is slightly lower quality canned food? Is there a specific food you know that would be cost-effective that I could rotate in? I'm scared of Fancy Feast as I know it's very low quality.

I feed my feral cats Friskies pate foods and Fancy Feast classics. I realize they hunt, so I'm just supplementing an already healthy diet. In the winter, because the wet food freezes, I do also put out some kibble for the ferals in the colony that do not come at "meal time." But one of my cats goes on raw food strikes from time-to-time. I feed her Fancy Feast during those periods, because I no longer keep any better quality foods at home. My issues with Fancy Feast aren't that it's made with by-products. I feed my raw fed cats by-products (liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc.) My issue is that it has "artificial flavors," food coloring, and synthetic vitamin K in it. :lol3: It's one of the few canned foods that doesn't have carrageenan in it, and I like that about it.

Fancy Feast Chicken Classic Ingredients: Chicken, chicken broth, liver, meat by-products, fish, poultry by-products, artificial and natural flavors, calcium phosphate, guar gum, potassium chloride, added color, salt, magnesium sulfate, taurine, zinc sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, niacin, sodium nitrite (to promote color retention), manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide. http://www.fancyfeast.com/wet-cat-food/classic-chicken-feast/

Some people are comfortable feeding only kibble, because they've had cats before that did just fine on only kibble. I do think that advances in technology have resulted in better profit margins with lower quality / species-inappropriate ingredients, and that's becoming more and more evident in the number of cats suffering from allergies/IBD, chronic renal failure, obesity/diabetes, dental problems.... Some people feed a small amount of kibble because they want food out while they're gone at work or something. Some people feed part kibble and part canned because of cost; they prefer "higher quality" kibble to lower quality canned.

I'm in the camp of people who believe that lower quality canned is better than any kibble. But that's because I've had three males block due to struvite crystals, and I saw the difference in the health of my cats when I switched from kibble and canned to just canned. But I never fed a measured, small amount of kibble. :dk:

I think kibble in and of itself is a species-inappropriate food. That said, I think moderation in everything makes a difference. Sweets aren't good for me, but in moderation they're not going to hurt me.

There's no reason to make any changes right away. Take your time, do some research, and make an informed decision with which you are comfortable.

I do rescue and rescued an FIV positive cat 15 years ago in one of my traps.  He was a big tom with ripped ears and scars. I realized he was not feral though and after fixing him brought him into my fold after my vet said it is very difficult for cats to transmit it and what a shame it is that he sees so many rescues euthanize their FIV positive cats.  They must bite deep to give it to another cat which means they must be a fighter.  Bubba lived 10 years and he was not young when I trapped him.  None of my other cats got it.  Bubba would even occasionally whack someone in the head if they were in his space and he wasn't in the mood to play.  He had a best friend in one of my other kitties and that cat never got FIV and they groomed each other and played with each other a lot.

Hi, we feed our FIV cats what everyone else eats and they are doing well.....  This is why I think that's happening...

I have a cat sanctuary (we also have other animals--we don't "discriminate") and a number of my cats came from a pretty lousy "rescue" (spell that "warehouse") in Dallas.  Among them were mostly old, sick or old and sick, and of the sick, the most proiminent was FIV+ cats.

I've learned a lot in the three years since 70+ of these cats came to stay with us.  (It's not as bad as it sounds, we have 4400 square feet in the house, a shop, several barns and 12+ acres.)  Most of the FIV cats have now passed on, but I have maybe six or eight still with me and in very good health.

They eat what everyone else eats and are doing fine.  The difference in how I manage them is, I definitely watch them more closely for signs they are "slipping," and they receive a supplement which I mix into liverwurst and feed.  So far they all like liver, so...

My best example of this program is Justin.  He was an older cat when he came and was pretty thin.  He slipped toward AIDS and I started giving him the supplement/liver, hand feeding him.  I don't have much of an idea how much anyone gets, I just feed from my fingers, they all get some and they are all doing well.  I took Justin in for blood work, to see if I was getting increased white cells from the supplement, and the vet said he was pretty sure Justin was a false positive AND that he had an infection--his white cells were elevated!  So now I just give some once a month and watch them all for maintaining health.  Somebody looks a little shabby, I give a little more often.  Justin should have died last November.  Here is it August and he is doing fantastic--great appetite, no URI, no diarrhea, fur looks good, he grooms himself and others, is social, purrs...  He's having a great life.

I am giving AHCC.  I discovered this from my health food guy (not a chain with "salespeople" like GNC--they never heard of this and have no idea of proper indications for various supplements!).  I use "Mike's Health Collection," a small family owned store in McKinney, TX (in case anyone here is nearby).  They have a facebook page and can be reached.  Mike  had no idea of any animal application, but recommended it for my husband who had severely depressed white cell counts related to chemotherapy and radiation (he had metastatic lung cancer, doing fine now despite the odds!).  As an RN, I knew we were going to have to do something and I was sick when I read up on the recommended medications for this problem.  The side effects included worsening tumors, new tumors and death.  Mike's supplement offered stimulation of bone marrow to produce more cells.  I had two days to get the counts up before even I could not justify our continuing to refuse drugs.  In two days, the oncologist wanted to know what I had done to cause the counts to go up, said they'd run the tests twice.  Of course he can't make $$ off a supplement someone else sells, so that was the end of his interest!

I got my first sick FIV cat three years ago.  Knowing NOTHING about whether this would work or not, I gave him some AHCC.  He perked up within days, was very active, and managed to develop quite an abscess.  My first thought was, OMG, what have I done to this poor cat?!?!  My next thought was, he should not be able to make an abscess.  I lost my nerve, didn't give him any more and he died.  (Peacefully, but he did die.)  Since then I have been treating my cats with the AHCC and liverwurst and they are all doing fine.

My next step is to test them for FIV again and see if they have cleared the virus.  I do not expect that to happen.  Then again, the immune system is what kills of viruses, bacteria and fungus, so who knows!?

Anyway, long story in answer to your short question.  I have several FIV+ cats, they are all doing very well.  They eat the same as everyone else (bagged dry cat food from WalMart, the occasional can of Friskies pate, some thoroughly boiled--like for three or four days--Sam's roasted chicken, the occasional goodie like juice from meat I've cooked, or the last few tablespoons of milk from the jug I've rinsed out.  Nothing special.

And they are all AMAZINGLY HEALTHY.  Feel free to PM me if you want to make contact via phone or email.  I don't want to post it on an open thread, but I'm happen to connect up more safely.

Christine Johnson

Susan's Cat Sanctuary (where we don't discriminate on basis of species)
 

ChrisRN75495 said:

Anyway, long story in answer to your short question.  I have several FIV+ cats, they are all doing very well.  They eat the same as everyone else (bagged dry cat food from WalMart, the occasional can of Friskies pate, some thoroughly boiled--like for three or four days--Sam's roasted chicken, the occasional goodie like juice from meat I've cooked, or the last few tablespoons of milk from the jug I've rinsed out.  Nothing special.

And they are all AMAZINGLY HEALTHY.  Feel free to PM me if you want to make contact via phone or email.  I don't want to post it on an open thread, but I'm happen to connect up more safely.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the extensive reply.  I may PM you with questions.  You're very generous to offer your advice!  

LDG said:

I feed my feral cats Friskies pate foods and Fancy Feast classics. I realize they hunt, so I'm just supplementing an already healthy diet. In the winter, because the wet food freezes, I do also put out some kibble for the ferals in the colony that do not come at "meal time." But one of my cats goes on raw food strikes from time-to-time. I feed her Fancy Feast during those periods, because I no longer keep any better quality foods at home. My issues with Fancy Feast aren't that it's made with by-products. I feed my raw fed cats by-products (liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc.) My issue is that it has "artificial flavors," food coloring, and synthetic vitamin K in it.

It's one of the few canned foods that doesn't have carrageenan in it, and I like that about it.

Fancy Feast Chicken Classic Ingredients: Chicken, chicken broth, liver, meat by-products, fish, poultry by-products, artificial and natural flavors, calcium phosphate, guar gum, potassium chloride, added color, salt, magnesium sulfate, taurine, zinc sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, niacin, sodium nitrite (to promote color retention), manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide. http://www.fancyfeast.com/wet-cat-food/classic-chicken-feast/

Some people are comfortable feeding only kibble, because they've had cats before that did just fine on only kibble. I do think that advances in technology have resulted in better profit margins with lower quality / species-inappropriate ingredients, and that's becoming more and more evident in the number of cats suffering from allergies/IBD, chronic renal failure, obesity/diabetes, dental problems.... Some people feed a small amount of kibble because they want food out while they're gone at work or something. Some people feed part kibble and part canned because of cost; they prefer "higher quality" kibble to lower quality canned.

I'm in the camp of people who believe that lower quality canned is better than any kibble. But that's because I've had three males block due to struvite crystals, and I saw the difference in the health of my cats when I switched from kibble and canned to just canned. But I never fed a measured, small amount of kibble.

I think kibble in and of itself is a species-inappropriate food. That said, I think moderation in everything makes a difference. Sweets aren't good for me, but in moderation they're not going to hurt me.

There's no reason to make any changes right away. Take your time, do some research, and make an informed decision with which you are comfortable.

Click to expand...

While I know it's not totally needed to make changes right now, I did make it over to the natural pet food store here yesterday and bought some single cans to see what he likes.  I'm going to start buying the 5.5 oz cans and splitting them between two meals morning and night with a small amount of kibble for texture and also because I need to use up this 15 lb. bag somehow!

I bought various kinds, all grain free (except one - I read the ingredients wrong in the store) and then went to Trader Joe's and bought a few of their (not grain free) foods to see if that could be a possibility to save on costs.  The only thing that worries me about the Trader Joe's food is that "ocean fish" is listed as the 4th or 5th ingredient as well as "fish protein concentrate" further down the list.  I guess as long as it's rotated in infrequently it should be okay.

The only brands I haven't heard of that I'd like input on are:

Precise Holistic Complete

Wild Calling

SarahLiz said:

The only brands I haven't heard of that I'd like input on are:
Precise Holistic Complete
Wild Calling

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I know many people use Trader Joe's in rotation and are happy with it. :nod: I'll look up the other two in a bit.

ChrisRN75495 said:

...I am giving AHCC.  I discovered this from my health food guy (not a chain with "salespeople" like GNC--they never heard of this and have no idea of proper indications for various supplements!).  I use "Mike's Health Collection," a small family owned store in McKinney, TX (in case anyone here is nearby).  They have a facebook page and can be reached.  Mike  had no idea of any animal application, but recommended it for my husband who had severely depressed white cell counts related to chemotherapy and radiation (he had metastatic lung cancer, doing fine now despite the odds!).  As an RN, I knew we were going to have to do something and I was sick when I read up on the recommended medications for this problem.  The side effects included worsening tumors, new tumors and death.  Mike's supplement offered stimulation of bone marrow to produce more cells.  I had two days to get the counts up before even I could not justify our continuing to refuse drugs.  In two days, the oncologist wanted to know what I had done to cause the counts to go up, said they'd run the tests twice.  Of course he can't make $$ off a supplement someone else sells, so that was the end of his interest!

...And they are all AMAZINGLY HEALTHY.  Feel free to PM me if you want to make contact via phone or email.  I don't want to post it on an open thread, but I'm happen to connect up more safely.

Christine Johnson
Susan's Cat Sanctuary (where we don't discriminate on basis of species)

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First of all, THANK YOU for rescuing kitties in need. :heart2: And I'm so sorry to hear about your husband, but SO GLAD he's doing so well under your care!

I don't want to take SarahLiz's thread off-topic, so I'm going to post a new thread in the Nutrition forum, exploring the AHCC. Thank you so much for sharing that information. :nod:

ETA: link to thread in health forum about AHCC. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263045/fiv-and-ahcc

.

LDG said:

I know many people use Trader Joe's in rotation and are happy with it. :nod: I'll look up the other two in a bit.

Click to expand...

The ingredients on each I bought look good, but I just can't find any info really on either kind online. So weird!

I found the websites:

http://precisepet.com/cat-formulas/precise-holistic-complete/

I'm not in love with this

Thoughtfully chosen ingredients like real meat proteins, wholesome carbohydrates, and balanced fatty acids combine with select botanicals, herbs, vitamins and probiotics to form a health food like no other.

Click to expand...

Obviously the food isn't made with "species appropriate" in mind. :lol3:

But the canned food doesn't look TOO bad, I guess, if you are of the mind that all the fruits & veggies provide antioxidants...

http://precisepet.com/cat-formulas/precise-holistic-complete/canned/grain-free-flaked-chicken/

At least the primary proteins are chicken, liver, and dried egg product (which, because it is dry, probably adds most of the protein - but it IS egg).


And the other one: http://wildcalling.com/

I didn't go through all of the cat products, but here's the rabbit:

Ingredients: Rabbit, Water (Sufficient for Processing), Liver, Guar Gum, Brewers Dried Yeast, Taurine, Calcium Sulfate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate [Source of Vitamin C], Thiamine Mononitrate [Source of Vitamin B1], Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [Source of Vitamin B6], Riboflavin Supplement [Source of Vitamin B2], Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Ferric Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide).

This looks like a good food. :nod: Nothing unnecessary and no carrageenan!