Caesarian Kittens story

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1healthymummy

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thankyou for your reply, its put my mind at rest somewhat.  She is on wet food mainly and has no interest in dry at all, although shows not much interest in food at all.  I've spoken to the vet again this morning who says shes probably still feeling ropey from the cesarean so hopefully things will improve.  They are gaining at a good rate so will wait and see as you say.  Will continue on the same thread in future! I'm new to this.

Thankyou again

claire
 

eb24

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Good I'm glad you are feeling better about things! It sounds like you have a great relationship with your vet so be sure you are discussing your concerns with them as well. S/he has seen your Momma and babies and so can get a better sense of what's going on. Just going off of what you say it seems like everything is okay but of course, none of us are there. Above all listen to your gut. If it feels like something is wrong then it probably is. 

It's good she's on wet as it's a much better diet for her. Though, for a lactating Queen it's not quite as calorie packed so I do think some Nutri-Cal would help her at least keep the weight she has. 

Don't apologize for being new- we are happy to have you! Having one thread is certainly not required, it just helps you from having to repeat the story over and over again and keeps us all on the same page. I did go back and read through your other two threads (I know, sssooooo much work to click the mouse 
) and a lot of the questions I had were indeed answered. And, you got some really stellar advice- especially from maewkaew. I didn't know that c-section Queens would sometimes take babies back once the anesthesia wore off, and I probably would have said otherwise. Guess I'm glad I didn't see your thread before now! 

Random comments:

- Yes, those are HUGE weights for three day old kittens! Seriously, I wouldn't want to birth the equivalent of a 10 pound human either! 


- Thank you for rescuing this girl, especially once you found out she was pregnant. It is no small feat and you are handling it all so well! 

I'm going to see if a mod can merge your threads so that it's more streamlined. 
 Keep the questions coming, and keep us posted on how they are doing!

EDIT: I just occurred to me: did you ask the vet at all about an appetite stimulant? I have had to use it with Queens before and it really does help. You could also try a different brand of food to see if she prefers that but my guess is you have tried that and she's just a finicky eater. So, next time you talk I would ask if she would be a good candidate for that so that she keeps her weight up and doesn't dry up. 
 
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1healthymummy

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Thankyou for the reply, we are so very lucky to have found this vet after using countless vets over the years.  We have just recently moved into the area (feb) and are on our 3rd already.  The first tried to get us to see a dental specialist for one of our cats who had some infected skin on his face....the second told us to take the mother cat back to where we got her from as he couldnt see her surviving...obviously this was NOT an opition for her or us, although she has drained us somewhat of finances! She had a stomach upset during pregnancy and had to be hospitalised for 3 days...this was at the second vets unfortunately.  We tried the third and they are just superb not only have they supported us night and day via phone if necessary.  They are clearly not just trying to make money from us and obviously care about all the animals in their care.  Funnily enough our vet nurse leanne has worked at both the other vets we went too! Also our vet Graham who performed the cesarean mentioned that 'of course you know the dental specialist is the owner' we couldnt beleive it! After taking toby with his skin still struggling to clear up to our new ets they had it sorted with 2 injections.  I do feel in very safe hands with these vets.  Kittens and mum are booked in next week for another check up...they had one yesterday neither of which have been added to our bill...feeling very lucky indeed!  Being allowed to watch the cesarean and help stimulate the kittens when they were born is an experience never to be forgotton, not to mention...being shown the internal organs of our mother cat...interesting...nerve wracking...exciting...terrifying.  These vets also send quite a few clients to me from rescue centres etc.  I had a bullmastiff yesterday from them...she was going to her new home but needed a good wash and tidy up before she went...i hear she is settling in well.  

I know maekeaw's help has been invaluble...and everyone elses this is a lovely sit, full of very knowledgeable people who do not mind spending their time helping people...a recipe for happy cats!

Well I mixed a pouch of adult food with a pouch of kitten food and she ate almost 2 pouches in one, so maybe she is starting to feel better.  She is on meticam pain releif at the moment and is being weaned off it so I'm hoping as she heals her appetite increases.  I havent weighed her and neither did the vet but she is visibily much thinner than before...disregarding the enormous kittens she is no longer carrying.  I will have a look for nutri cal it sounds like a good idea.  Also appetite stimulants will be discussed if her appetite doesn't improve over the next few days.

They are big babies, will try and get a pic of them today....7 days old tomorrow....woohoo!

I know i need to learn a lot as i have always been a dog owner...We took toby on last year who has had quite a few health problems, ruptured diaphram, various skin conditions and currently a sore paw.  Hes only just a year old so who knows what other surprises we have in store...i just hope all the cat illneses die down...or perhaps we have been sent these cats to look after in which case...that's fine...i will just need to work 24 hours a day to pay the bills haha.

claire
 
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1healthymummy

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ONE WEEK OLD and it feels like they have been here way longer!   Mum still not eating a lot and hubby has been sent out for nutir cal...every type of high qulity kitten food available to see if she prefers any others.  Managed to get one small can of gourmet gold into her this morning...i know this is not the best but its better than her just licking the jelly from whiska's pouches.  Both kittens are doing fabulously well and the little girl 'jane' has both eyes open this morning.  Vet has warned us of eclampsia if we do not get enough nutrition into her so we are still monitering the situation very closely.  Feeling more worried for mum than the kittens now. will keep you posted
 

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Pure Bites are freeze dried treats that are available in chicken, beef liver, or fish. Small cubes that can easily be broken up. My three cats are very fond of them. Rather than as a topper, I break one up and mix it with half a small (3 oz) can of cat food. The canned food is practically inhaled, gone in seconds and the dish polished. Perhaps try this for your beautiful spotted momma cat to encourage her to eat more?
 
 
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1healthymummy

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oooh thankyou i will see if they have these in the uk.  She's even turning her nose up at roast chicken...
 

eb24

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....the second told us to take the mother cat back to where we got her from as he couldnt see her surviving...obviously this was NOT an opition for her or us, although she has drained us somewhat of finances! 
It's amazing isn't it? You would think all vets would truly care about the animals they see but it's not the case at all. It seems for every decent vet there are at least 5 horrible ones!

I had a similar thing happen when I first adopted my female cat. I got her from the shelter and she was very sick- eye infection, stomach infection, and ringworm. The first vet I took her too told me I should just put her down because it wasn't worth the time or money it would take to get her better (not that she wouldn't get better, just that her life wasn't worth it). The second told me I should "return" her and get a kitten who wasn't "defective." Like she was a scratched table or something. 

Bottom line: you are so, so, SO lucky to have found such a helpful and caring vet. And, the fact that they are not charging for some of the appointments knowing she is a reduce is just the icing on top! It's nice that it's such a reciprocal relationship too. Hang onto that one! 
I know i need to learn a lot as i have always been a dog owner...We took toby on last year who has had quite a few health problems, ruptured diaphram, various skin conditions and currently a sore paw.  Hes only just a year old so who knows what other surprises we have in store...i just hope all the cat illneses die down...or perhaps we have been sent these cats to look after in which case...that's fine...i will just need to work 24 hours a day to pay the bills haha.
I think you should give yourself some credit. Even if you feel like you know more about dogs than cats you are learning incredibly fast and are doing everything right. It also seems your intuition has been right on about everything so far too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning and asking questions. I never grew up with cats or had any experience with them until a few years ago when I lived with someone who had a cat. But, as far as my own, I've only been around them for three years and see how far I've come?!? There is nothing that says you won't do the same if you want to! 

I do hope the illnesses die down too. Other than Mom's appetite it seem like so far so good (well, I can't speak for Toby). You can keep problems away by making sure they are all dewormed, vaccinated, and altered. And, should you choose to keep them inside, many illnesses become almost nonexistent (minus the rare odd circumstance). 

It does seem like this Queen chose you and did for good reason! So happy to see your little family growing exponentially! 

Oh, and I agree on the PureBites. They get demolished around here! One of my favorite brands ever! 
 
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1healthymummy

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I can't beleive they could say such a thing.  Maybe it has somthing to do with some of the owners they come into contact with aswell.  One of the vets we saw practically accused us of creating the whole unethical breeding situation in the whole WORLD.  Made us feel terrible without really knowing her story.  Although i suppose you would become so frustrated at the situation of animals like the ones we have had in our care.  

Will keep on learning fear not! Both the older cats are indoor cats and always have been as hubby lost his 3 year old cat before i met him and beleives they should be inside which i tend to agree with.  Toby had a retained testicle also...unlucky little thing.  He really is too curious for his own good which has been the cause of most of his troubles.  We think his chin was from trying to eat from the breakfast pan....of course we put that away straight away now...you live and learn...

I do give myself a hard time don't i! Its being a mother...motherly guilt!  Me and hubby have been on eggshells since the birth...although calming down a lot now haha.  

Well mumma cat is eating more, i've out her on gourmet gold pate as its the only thing she will eat lots of, she had 4 cans yesterday which is a lot for her.  Tried her with some of our roast chicken last night and she wouldnt touch it...funny little cat.  Will look out for pure bites. Not sure if they have them here....

We are super lucky to have this vet...toby is in monday and mumma with bubbas on tuesday...we might as well move in!

Thankyou for your lovely comments

claire
 

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I don't like that the mum is not eating much.    I would get her off that Metacam.  Nausea /  loss of appetite is a common side effect.     Plus it  is not for lactating cats.     And Metacam (meloxicam) also has a risk of damage to kidneys and reportedly there have been quite a few cats who died  after using it.  In the USA  its use in cats is only approved by the FDA  for 1 single dose and the package has a warning label that says "Warning: Repeated use of meloxicam in cats has been associated with acute renal failure and death. Do not administer additional doses of injectable or oral meloxicam to cats."

  Here is from their own website.  Read in the "Safety Information" box.   http://www.bi-vetmedica.com/main/by_product/metacam.html

Apparently there are now protocols for longer use in cats at a low dose 2 or 3 times a week ,  that   some vets are trying.   It discusses that in this link  under "How this Medication is Used"   ( keep in mind the article is about its use for dogs too . It is not so risky for dogs)  http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_meloxicam.html           but also says under Concerns and Cautions that  it should not be used in pregnancy and lactation. 

 I hate to give you something else to worry about but I sure would not want my queen on repeated doses of that medication.   especially when nursing. 

   If she still needs a  pain reliever try something like tramadol  which is not passed to the kittens via milk.   It does occasionally cause upset stomach. but i think that is not as common as with the Metacam.     http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html

Another tip for something that might tempt her to eat....  Fortiflora probiotic powder made by Purina, sold by vets here ( and maybe in the UK) .   It's not a bad idea to give her a probiotic anyway,  especially if she does start eating more as she needs to,   that can help her digest the food -   ---   but the additional benefit is that many cats find it extremely tasty and it can sometimes tempt a cat to eat if you sprinkle it on their food..  (It's the same sort of   stuff that   cat food manufacturers spray on the kibble to make cats think it is good.)  

Glad to hear the Giant Kittens are doing well!   

 Now got to get the mum eating.   It is pretty normal that with kittens at a week old she would be eating about 1.5 times her normal amount,  and by the time they are 2 weeks old may be eating twice as much as usual,   going up to about  3 times her normal amount of calories by the time they are a month old. 
 

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 I have to second  EB24's comments that  it sounds like you really have picked up on things very quickly in caring for this queen and her kittens..   I was impressed from the start with that and  of course also your kindness and generosity.     
 

eb24

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  One of the vets we saw practically accused us of creating the whole unethical breeding situation in the whole WORLD. 
I knew ONE person was responsible for that! And, of course it's you naughty girl!!!! 


I do think a lot of vets just get burnt out. And, they probably see so many bad pet owners that they don't recognize the good ones when they come along. 
 

Will keep on learning fear not! Both the older cats are indoor cats and always have been as hubby lost his 3 year old cat before i met him and beleives they should be inside which i tend to agree with.  Toby had a retained testicle also...unlucky little thing.  He really is too curious for his own good which has been the cause of most of his troubles.  We think his chin was from trying to eat from the breakfast pan....of course we put that away straight away now...you live and learn...
I'm glad you are choosing to keep them indoors. The only time I am really comfortable with cats being outside is with proper precautions in place (a cat run or cat proofed fences or whatever). Otherwise, in most situations, the risks just aren't worth it. 

Poor Toby. Little buddy really can't catch a break! Did the testicle ever descend or did they go fish it out? If not then I would not allow the two to be together until after she is spayed. With Toby's luck he will totally knock her up which is the last thing you all need!
I don't like that the mum is not eating much.    I would get her off that Metacam.  Nausea /  loss of appetite is a common side effect.     Plus it  is not for lactating cats.     And Metacam (meloxicam) also has a risk of damage to kidneys and reportedly there have been quite a few cats who died  after using it.  In the USA  its use in cats is only approved by the FDA  for 1 single dose and the package has a warning label that says "Warning: Repeated use of meloxicam in cats has been associated with acute renal failure and death. Do not administer additional doses of injectable or oral meloxicam to cats."

  Here is from their own website.  Read in the "Safety Information" box.   http://www.bi-vetmedica.com/main/by_product/metacam.html

Apparently there are now protocols for longer use in cats at a low dose 2 or 3 times a week ,  that   some vets are trying.   It discusses that in this link  under "How this Medication is Used"   ( keep in mind the article is about its use for dogs too . It is not so risky for dogs)  http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_meloxicam.html           but also says under Concerns and Cautions that  it should not be used in pregnancy and lactation. 

 I hate to give you something else to worry about but I sure would not want my queen on repeated doses of that medication.   especially when nursing. 

    If she still needs a  pain reliever try something like tramadol   which is not passed to the kittens via milk.   It does occasionally cause upset stomach. but i think that is not as common as with the Metacam.     http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html

Another tip for something that might tempt her to eat....  Fortiflora  probiotic powder made by Purina, sold by vets here ( and maybe in the UK) .   It's not a bad idea to give her a probiotic anyway,  especially if she does start eating more as she needs to,   that can help her digest the food -   ---   but the additional benefit is that many cats find it extremely tasty and it can sometimes tempt a cat to eat if you sprinkle it on their food..  (It's the same sort of   stuff that   cat food manufacturers spray on the kibble to make cats think it is good.)  

Glad to hear the Giant Kittens are doing well!   

 Now got to get the mum eating.   It is pretty normal that with kittens at a week old she would be eating about 1.5 times her normal amount,  and by the time they are 2 weeks old may be eating twice as much as usual,   going up to about  3 times her normal amount of calories by the time they are a month old. 
Dang girl you have been on fire with the stellar advice lately! I had no clue about all this and Metacam. It's pretty scary! Given how spot on Maewkaew has been lately Claire I would for sure take this to heart and consider taking her off of it. Hopefully in doing so she will get some of her appetite back too. Since you have SuperVet I would give them a call in the AM and make sure it's okay to stop her cold turkey and see about switching to Tramadol if she still needs pain relief. I have actually taken it before and it works well. In humans anyway....

I have always used FortiFlora for the probiotic purposes but I have never really noticed it being a good food attractant. Maewkaew: is it marketed as such or has that just been your experience that they seem to love it? In my experience they don't seem to mind it, but it doesn't get the begging faces that other products do. I do think it would be good for her regardless, I was just curious. 
 

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I have always used FortiFlora for the probiotic purposes but I have never really noticed it being a good food attractant. Maewkaew: is it marketed as such or has that just been your experience that they seem to love it? In my experience they don't seem to mind it, but it doesn't get the begging faces that other products do. I do think it would be good for her regardless, I was just curious. 
I am pretty sure Purina does not market it as anything other than a probiotic ,  but some vets do recommend it as a food attractant/ flavor enhancer.   It's something I have seen myself  ( having spent years caring for a cat with diabetes  and chronic pancreatitis and a history of DKA,   who would sometimes have inappetance and it was SO crucial that he eat or very scary things could happen quickly )  and also have heard  from many other people who saw that it worked;   I have seen people recommend it for  cats with kidney disease,  cancer,  pancreatitis etc.    And Dr Lisa Pierson of catinfo.org includes it in her list of tips to transition a cat to wet food.  In fact,  she calls it her favorite trick.  
 

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Re the meloxicam  ,  it is controversial.     It may be that most the serious problems were at a time when it was being dosed incorrectly.   Some vets definitely seem to think it's OK in cats if used very carefully.     There are some threads on this forum where it's been discussed in the past years.  for example this one from early this year     http://www.thecatsite.com/t/254155/question-about-metacam-and-other-painkillers

But in any case,   I have seen nausea  and inappetance as a side effect .  

Anyway here is a quote:  
  • The most common side effects of meloxicam are nausea, appetite loss, vomiting or diarrhea. If any of the above are noted, meloxicam should be discontinued and the pet brought in for a liver enzyme and renal parameter blood test. In most cases, the reaction is minor and resolves with symptomatic relief, but it is important to rule out whether or not the patient has more than just a routine upset stomach. 
and another quote:  
  • Meloxicam should not be used in pregnancy or in lactation.
   http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1752         I think this is actually the same article I found in the Marvista vet site.  but here it's from Veterinary Partner  which is  the site for vet clients,  published by the Veterinary Information Network .
 

eb24

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I am pretty sure Purina does not market it as anything other than a probiotic ,  but some vets do recommend it as a food attractant/ flavor enhancer.   It's something I have seen myself  ( having spent years caring for a cat with diabetes  and chronic pancreatitis and a history of DKA,   who would sometimes have inappetance and it was SO crucial that he eat or very scary things could happen quickly )  and also have heard  from many other people who saw that it worked;   I have seen people recommend it for  cats with kidney disease,  cancer,  pancreatitis etc.    And Dr Lisa Pierson of catinfo.org includes it in her list of tips to transition a cat to wet food.  In fact,  she calls it her favorite trick.  
Wow that is all really interesting. I may have to give it another shot! I guess I never paid close attention when I've used it, other than to make sure they were eating. Definitely worth trying to see if it helps her! 
 
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