Caesarian Kittens story

Okey dokey well i am new here and typing as fast as i can in between sterilising an hourly feeds.  Last night our new cat who came to us pregnant was taken in to the vets who decided a c section was the way forward,...she is very young we suspect around 9 months.  The kittens were larger one much larger than the other and very well developed so the vet thinks she was well overdue.  Unfortunately she has not taken to the kittens, we are lucky enough to be on very good terms with our vet as i am a groomer and often groom cruelty cases for them and a local rescue.  The vet let us into theatre to watch the cesarean which was very nerve wracking but an experience we shall not forget.  Mum is doing well and is seperated now after numerous attempts to reintroduce them and with advice from our vet we began feeding them last night which is going well. I have had differing opinions on the ammount to feed from our vet, the nurse and by reading online...would you feed on demand at one day old? this is how i have been feeding and seems to work well for them they are eating between 1 and 3ml each every 45 mins to an hour night and day.  Also i have water bottles in their box with vet bed on top and them in a blanket, i worry they will get too hot or cold...am i correct to just keep checking they are comfortable and not overheated/cold at all, are there any standard checks for this?  I have never had a cat before although i have groomed many i seem to be head first in at the deep end...we have found a home for one of her kittens and the other is staying with us, she was spayed at c section so all is taken care of in that respect.  Also how do i know if they are hungry? I tend to wait for them to wake up and meow, try them for a wee/poo feed, burp a little, try for a wee/poo again then back to sleep...does this sound ok?  Thankyou in advance...if there is anything else i should be doing please don't hesitate to advise.  I've spoken to the vet and the nurse already today!   neurotic step mummy

claire

The most important is not lotsa experience, but heart and good will.  Many of our forumites manage surprising well, solving even very complicated cases, without having previous experience. But they were ready to step in, and did it.  Instincts do kick in in such situation when need arises.

You seem to do well and think on most.  You surely do it excellently.

One word of caution though: better not to give them too much at each feeding, so to speak.  There is some risk of reflux with risk food gets into the lungs....

So better often but not so much.

You do weigh them every day? This is always a good idea, so you see the changes.

A good site for helping orphans is www.kitten-rescue.com

If you google so handraise, handreared.  Fabcats...

Look on threads at our site too, if you have time...

Good luck!

  Welcome to our Forums!

Brill, thankyou for the reply.  will have a look as soon as i get chance.  I am a worrier unfotunately but after a few days i'm sure i will calm down.  I'm worrying about if they are too hot/too cold...too noisy/too quiet...too hungry/not hungry enough haha the list goes on.  As for weighing we have not weighed them since last night when they we born, they are less than 24 hours, can't remember the figures from the vets but will get them when hubby gets home...so little and often it is, they do seem to take more than i would have expected but the mother was very small and they are very large so i wonder if they are catching up somewhat after her being so overdue and all.

will put pics on when i have permission, just tried to and it says i dont

thankyou again

claire

If mum has any milk, what would be VERY VERY good is to get those kittens some colostrum  so that they get some maternal antibodies today!  

  They will only be able to totally absorb them within the first day , and the sooner the better because it's really the first 12 hours that they are most likely to be able to have the immunoglobulins transferred directly into the blood circulation of the kittens.  

 I 'm sure it has gone past 12 hours now but it's still worth doing it. even if it is past 24 I would try it because the antibodies may still play some protective role in the GI tract.  

If you think it is best not to try to get her to nurse the kittens again,   you can actually "milk" her.  express the milk into a small jar that has been sterilized .    

I have heard of some c-section mums who initially reject the kittens and then a day or so later will accept them once the anesthesia is worn off ,  and  delayed reaction of the maternal hormones  

Sometimes with a young mum,  the caretaker has to actually hold her down , petting and talking soothingly ,  while putting the kittens on to nurse, maybe just one at first.     Then sometimes eventually the mum will relax,  and the act of nursing actually triggers her to  not only have more milk but to bond with the kittens.   Then after that sometimes the young cat mum settles down and does a great job raising her babies.

.So it might be worth trying again because  the best thing for kittens is a mother cat .  and IF she would take over at least some of the care,  believe me it will make your life so much easier.   

   If she actually reacted violently you might not want to even try .   ( but that could have been from the anesthesia drugs) 

FEEDING  

The site Stefan linked  kitten-rescue.com  ,  has a feeding schedule.   

I base the amounts off weight as well as age.  

If these were said to be big kittens I am guessing at least 100 grams and in that case 3 ml at a time would be fine.   not sure I would give it every 45 min, though. 

 If they are huge like 150 grams  (well to me that would be huge) , you can give like 4- 5 ml at a time every 2 - 3 hours.   

 You don't want to overfeed either.  

It is important not to give too much at a time,  there is the risk of reflux and then aspiration into the lungs which can cause pneumonia,  that is often fatal.   

That's a big risk with bottle babies anyway.    Make sure you are holding them in the same position they would naturally be in to nurse from their mum.  not on their backs.  that is dangerous for kittens. 

   They will cry if hungry.   

It sounds like you are doing the right things!   

Thankyou for such a detailed reply, we have got through night through much easier and with some sleep for me! Babies are eating every 2 hours now which is a big releif and they are having betweem 3 and 5 ml...they pooed this morning for the first time...another milestone passed! As for mother cat she actually tries to attack them now, or me if i smell of them so will keep trying to sit with her with their scent on me and showing her them occasionally and hopefully we will get somewhere.  If not its ok, i work from home as a dog groomer, my studio is in the garden so they will fit in just fine..once i get over the feeling of being a new mum again...a pic of one is on my avatar....we've called him bear as he is so enormous and has a huge head.  The other seems to be catching up weight wise after being smaller at birth, bear was close to 130 at birth...she was 110.  I did manage to get a little colostrum from her yesterday which was a releif.  

will keep you posted

claire

How often should they poo? the smaller one has been twice already today, not too soft but more like mustard, the larger one has been once, hoping im not over/underfeeding them.  They seem to be taking a lot less food today but are still content and sleeping a lot more rather than meowing.  

thanks in advance

 I think probably a couple times a day is pretty normal  but they could go 3 times or they might sometimes skip a day.     You don't want them skipping more than 2 days  .  if they skip one day I would maybe add a few drops of vegetable oil to formula and/ or slightly dilute the formula. 

thankyou! also its very hot here today and i have still put a heating bottle in their nest, will they move to a cooler part if they are too hot? havent covered them with a blanket either just keep monitering them.  Is there any way to tell if they are too hot or cold?

claire

My two little cesarean kittens who have been hand reared for the last two days have suddenly and unexpectedly been taken back by the mother after reading advice from here, so very releived, its early yet but both are with mum and one is latched on, she has limited milk but im hoping this will improve...will keep you updated!claire

What fabulously excellent news!

 That is  excellent news!   I am so glad .

    As I mentioned in the other thread,  I had heard of this happening that initially after a c-section  the queen may reject the kittens, but then a day or even a few days later , may accept them.    So that's why I said it may be worth trying to see if she would change her mind as she recovered physically from the op  ,  and after the drugs got totally out of her system and stopped interfering with the hormones or with the way the hormones affect her brain chemistry, and thus her reaction to the kittens.   

It may also be that, due to you going back and forth between the kittens and her, she gradually started getting more used to their scent that at first distressed her. 

   

Fortunately she is still able to nurse them.    And the nursing itself should trigger her to produce more milk.  

You will need to really keep an eye on her incision.    I'm sure you are already doing that but definitely have a close look at least once a day,  check that the stitches are OK  and check for redness, oozing or swelling at the incision site.  ( not just mammary glands being engorged with milk which is of course normal)    

 I would wipe the incision site with an antiseptic solution like Betadine every day.   

And keep the nest very clean.  Change bedding daily and wash with bleach.      

 Do you have  ( or can you borrow or purchase) some kind of scale that weighs in grams, like a baby scale, postage scale or food scale ?  

It is a very good idea in general with young kittens to weigh them daily at about the same time.   A kitten not gaining at least 10 grams per day  ( or worse, losing weight) is often the first sign you might see of a problem . 

In this particular situation it would be especially helpful if there's some concern the queen may not have enough milk  or that the kittens may have some trouble latching on .   So it will let you know if you need to continue to supplement a bit with bottle feeding.

 

 But I would not be too  quick to go back to bottle feeding because you do want to encourage them to nurse from their mom.  Her milk is better for them than any replacement we can give,  and her milk will change as they age so it is the right composition at every stage.  

So as long as they are gaining something,  and they are nursing every few hours,  and not crying a lot,  I would not be too worried if for the first day or two of nursing from their mum,  they did not quite make 10 grams a day  because they are having to learn a different way to nurse.     

   I was also glad to hear in your other thread that you did get them some colostrum the first day when their mum would not let them nurse.  That can make a big difference to their health.   

  It is great that they have some humans that are so caring.    With her being so young,  it's still possible she may not be the most attentive mum.  

 Yes ,  normal healthy neonatal kittens are able to move enough to crawl away to a cooler part if they're too warm,  as long as they only need to move along the same level surface,  they can pull themselves along.  

Kittens will normally cry if they are too hot or too cold and can't get to whichever temperature they need,  whether it's a cooler spot, or a heat source.  ( the favorite heat source is of course the mother or surrogate mother) 

Kittens who are too cold may at first cry  then start to be more lethargic, slower in their movements, less responsive.    If their body temp drops under 34 C. they are unable to digest food .  

One problem with kittens getting too hot is they may get dehydrated.    That can be checked by gently pulling up some skin on the back or back of neck and then release it;  it should snap back into place immediately -- in less than a second.   If it takes longer that is a sign of dehydration.  and the longer it takes , the worse the dehydration. 

Now that the mum has accepted the kittens,  if she spends most the time lying with them, her body heat will help them.    You may want to still use the heating bottle.   In the first week, the temperature in the nest should be 30-32 C.    2nd week,  27-29 C.    (This does not mean the entire room has to be 30-32 C. !   it just refers to the temperature exactly around the kittens, or anyway the warm part of the nest  that they should be able to get to if they wish.)

1healthymummy said:

thankyou! also its very hot here today and i have still put a heating bottle in their nest, will they move to a cooler part if they are too hot? havent covered them with a blanket either just keep monitering them.  Is there any way to tell if they are too hot or cold?

claire

Click to expand...

maewkaew thankyou so much, it is with your advice that i continued to tried to put them togather and therefore you have probably saved two little lives and definitely made the situation 100 times better!!! she is doing well and seems to have lots of milk as it squirts out.  She is hesitent to leave them now and purrs and purrs, wont even leave them to eat so we have been delivering her dinner to the crate we have put them in.  We will be very careful with hygene and have been keeping a close eye on her sticthes.  She has the vets on tuesday for a check up on the situation but we will take her in before then if necessary.  As for weighing the babies, i have asked on freecycle for some scales but they so far (day 3) are increasing visibly in size and have been pooing and weeing a lot that is all i can go on for now.  The smaller one (jane) can find a nipple imediately but the larger one (bear) is finding it more difficult although the mother shifts around appearing to be trying to help.  We have set up a small room for them all, bleached it throughout, crate in one corner, blankets over the floor and her food and litter...she seems very happy...will post pics when i can.

one again thankyou so much it is in direct response to your advice that these kittens are back with their mum.  My partner began grumbling last night as i let her see them....right at the moment she took them back!

I've just weighed them with the next door neighbours scales and they are 190 and 200 grsma...is that quite big?

thankyou catapult this is a huge weight off our minds, still watching her very closely she is seeming to be an excellent mum...

lovely photos.   what a nice mum she's being now.    She was just all confused at first  and didn't even understand that they were her babies. and was probably in pain from her op, so she reacted badly initially.

 Now her maternal instincts have kicked in and she is doing her job. 

 Yes those are HUGE kittens for 3 days old!  Wow!   No wonder she had to have a cesarean!  

well thankyou so much for your help, babies and mum have needed no intervention, maybe a cuddle or 20 for mum..will keep you posted as for their development.  I was prepared for the long haul!

Now 6 days old, kittens and mum saw the vet last night to check on her cesarean scar.   She seems to be losing weight fast which is worrying and i am getting as much kitten food into her as possible.  She is small and has never really been too interested in food.  Kittens are doing very well, weighed by the vets on day 5 at 225grams and 210...the vet was astonished at their size.  I'm so pleased they are doing so well but slighlty worried for mum.  wondering if i should supplement them with a couple of bottle feeds a day? Also she seems to want to spend a lot of time away from them now but does return if they cry and will lie with them.  I'm slightly worried they will not be warm enough as the weather has turned to storms and is a lot colder here...so i have put a rice sock in with them in case...guess im just panicking as per usual!!!

claire

It's clear from the beginning that you have been posting throughout your situation. I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with the backstory. But, from what you have said here it sounds like they are all doing well. If they continue to gain I probably wouldn't start supplementing them- there is just too much risk in that. Be prepared to do it and if they start losing weight or have a couple of low gain days in a row then you are right that you need to step in. But, until then, I would wait and see if Mom can't manage on her own. 

As for her health- are you feeding her wet food in addition to dry? She really needs to be on both. Not only for the extra calories but for the extra water. She may benefit from a little Nutri-Cal paste too. It's sold in most pet stores and will ensure she's getting enough of her basic nutrients and will boost her caloric intake even more. 

It's normal for a Queen to want time away from her kittens. So long as she comes when they cry it's not something to be too concerned about. But again, if she starts neglecting them then it is time to intervene with a bottle. 

Overall I think you are handling it all well and the rice sock is a nice addition (just make sure they have plenty of room to get away from it if it gets too warm). As of now things sound fine but it's certainly something you will want to watch closely and be prepared to intervene if the time does come. You are very much in a watch-and-see spot right now, and it could go either way.

On an unrelated note, sometimes it helps (and you get better advice) if you keep using one thread. I'm sure there are people who have been following your situation unaware that you are using a new one, and people like me who could use the backstory. Whatever you are comfortable with is fine, I just know in PC&K especially it's easy to start getting situations mixed up and having it all in one place is very, very helpful!

Keep up the good work!