Newborns and "Toddler" Interaction Advice Needed

Hi Everyone - I've run into a situation where I'm not sure exactly what to do.  Three weeks ago, I trapped a pregnant semi-feral cat. She was huge! That was on July 2nd. I brought her to a vacant mobile home that we have (very cozy actually with central air, tv, all the amenities). She had been coming around about a week and a half. She had 3 feral "toddlers" with her - not babies but certainly not adults. We got the toddlers trapped the next night, July 3rd, and we brought them up to be with their momma. On July 4th, she went into labor - 8 kittens total, 5 lived (it was amazing watching the 3 that I got to see coming into this world). Well, the newborns will be 3 weeks old tomorrow and they are just adorable - tiny little fuzzy things, fat and squealing! I come up during the day and night to spend time with them all. One of the toddlers is getting fairly tame - he comes up to me, meows and winds around my legs. He lets me pet him; the momma kitty lets me pet her quite a bit and will come to greet me. The other 2 toddlers are still fairly skittish - I have the tv on, talk to them all the time and try to let them know that humans are safe. Tonight one of the newborns (they may be getting too old to call them that) went looking for momma who was eating nearby. The brave toddler at first licked it, then started to bat it around like a toy. I went in (to the kitchen where they eat and sleep) and got the baby (it's so soft and adorable!) so it wouldn't get hurt. My question is: do I need to separate the toddlers from momma and the babies? I could probably put up a screen door between the kitchen and living room, set up separate eating spots and litter boxes. I'm worried that if I'm not up here, a baby will get hurt by a toddler wanting to use it for a toy! Advice - please!!!

First off, thank you so much for taking them all in and looking after them! This is definitely above and beyond what anyone could ask of you, and this whole family is very lucky that you found them!

This is not a situation I am familiar with so I am hoping someone comes along who knows a little bit more. And, my thoughts are kind of all over the place on the subject. Instinctively I feel like if the toddlers posed a threat the the newborns something would have happened by now. That said, I wonder if something has changed that is putting the newborns at a higher risk. The obvious thing would be that as they become more mobile they look more and more like fun prey. The other possibility is that the toddlers are reaching sexual maturity (it can happen as early as 4 months of age). Reaching that phase will definatley make them (especially males) more territorial and aggressive.

If I may ask, what are your future plans for this brood? Are you going to continue to try and socialize and then re-home them? Or, TNR (trap-neuter-release) them? This may be outside the realm of possibility but if I were you I would start looking into having the toddlers altered as soon as is possible. You may be able to find a shelter or TNR program (or even sympathetic vet) who will do this at a discounted rate (or even for free). If they are becoming more aggressive towards the newborns because of hormones this will stop that. It will also eliminate the risk of them impregnating each other or worse, re-impregnating Mom. Keep in mind if you do this that males can retain active sperm for several weeks after the surgery so you would want to keep them separated from any intact females (including Mom) until then. 

So, I think I would separate out the male toddlers from any female toddlers and the Mom and newborns. Hopefully they won't be too distraught by that. If you have plans to re-home the toddlers I would go ahead and start working on that now, and see if you can't find a way to alter them. Even if you just fixed the males for the time being that may really help the situation. 

I'm curious to see what others think on this so I will for sure be following. Please, ask more questions if you need to. 

Vibes that this situation continues to work and that you can find homes for all of them! 

[  EDIT:     For some reason EB24's post was not showing to me when I typed this.   looks like we have had some of the same thoughts.  Oh well.  ]

Oh that poor mom.   She must have got pregnant while the "toddlers" were  very young. 

 Yes,   I think it would be a good idea to separate the  "toddlers" from their younger siblings and mom  now for a while at  least until the babies are bigger and can hold their own a bit better.   It's lucky the toddlers didn't hurt the newborns earlier   and  that is a good sign that they probably aren't like super predatory or malicious toward them

But as you have just seen,  it is now getting into a risky period as the babies are getting to be more mobile,  so the toddlers  will be more likely to want to try to play with them  -- and  definitely may play too hard and may hurt them.    And the mama cannot be everywhere at once to protect all 5 babies when they start toing in different directions. 

And if those big toddlers are still nursing (?)  that is putting an awful lot of stress on the queen's resource.  She is already really pushed to the limit with back to back litters and with the 3 week old litter taking more every day from her. 

Since the mom is now so friendly  I wouldn't even call her semi-feral.  so it is good you don't have to worry that the kittens will learn a strong message from her that Humans are all Evil.     

 But   maybe more interacting with you apart from mom  would be good for the toddlers .    I would do a lot of playing with wand toys. ,  the shyer ones can  play with you and  have fun without having to get very close at first.

  And of course bringing them meals or treats a few times a day so they see good things come from you.                                                   

Have you been able to de-worm anyone yet?    I would definitely get that done  ( with de wormer from the vet.)  and if the toddlers are  8 weeks,   they could start their vaccinations.  

also need to figure out about getting them altered.    There have been kittens who reach puberty as young as 4 months!  and the last thing you need is for them to start inbreeding.  

GOod luck and thanks for helping this cat family! 

maewkaew said:

[  EDIT:     For some reason EB24's post was not showing to me when I typed this.   looks like we have had some of the same thoughts.  Oh well.  ]

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Lies! You just like to copy me. Don't think I haven't noticed that you have been thread stalking me lately. Or, maybe I have been thread stalking you...   

EB24 said:

This is not a situation I am familiar with

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To say the truth, few of us are, esp as this here is a rather unique combination.  

What we can do and and are doing, is to play it by the ear, based on the experiences we DO have, they hearsays and witnessing from other forumists, our senses we got sharpened up by being active forumsts, etc...  

One aspect why to take the toddlers aside is also, to get a more intensive  interaction with just them and to foster and socialize them quicker.  One is almost done, but the other two needs a more massive impression.  NOW.

They are outside the magical 8 weeks of age, but they are still young, so it should go fairly easy.

A nicely and efficient trick shown by Catwoman707 is to wrap us such a one in a soft towel like a burrito, all legs and paws tucked in, up to the neck, and carry it at your chest, where she hears your heart. You talking softly, making friendly noises "crooning", singing softly if you can.  Do it at half a hour, perhaps even a full hour. A couple three such sessions and it should be done.  

You also use the almost done as your ambassadeur to the other two more shy.

You dont need to overdo fostering of the infants - as their mom is fairly tame as it is, they will be socialized automatically.  Just make sure you do handle them.  Pretend you are weighting them, for example. 

Dont forget to let someone else friendly human visit them too. Perhaps a nice kid or two.

Later on if you have a friendly dog...

Last, but not least, a couple of adresses to find cheap spaying clinics.  Maewkaew here did wrote this:  "If you are in the U.S. ,  the ASPCA has an online database.  http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/spayneuter
"
 Or here is a hotline number that will find you a low cost clinic in your area  1-800-248-7729    (Franksmom just posted this for someone on another thread,  and that poster called it and they were able to help him find some options at good prices.)"

Good luck!

Hi All - Thanks for all the good advice and well wishings!  I forgot to put in my thread that I am planning on having the toddlers spayed/ neutered. The bravest toddler is a boy and that is the one wanting to "play" with his youngest brother/sister. He is the one that comes up to me and lets me pet the top of his head and rub down his back. He doesn't do it "maliciously" or meanly - I think it is due to the newborns starting to move around more and the baby looks like a great moving little toy to him! I do have a call in to make appointments for them at a local low cost spay/ neuter clinic here in SC (Anderson has one via their Humane Society). I do have other cats that I've taken to them (4) and they have done a wonderful job. They spay/neuter them and give them their first shots for either $30 or $50 depending on if they're ferals or rescues, etc. Before the population explosion we were able to afford a "regular" vet for the first 2 but now with the population of Cat Town hitting 17 - well, you get the idea! It's a hit on the budget to get everyone fed well but they are all beautiful kitties who are loving and know they are loved (one of our inside/outside kitties is the momma to 5 of them and, from the markings, is a grandma to the newborns and toddlers - she is a beautiful tortie who shows her gratitude by laying on our laps, staying by our side and purring loudly when we pet and rub her; she's been fixed for almost a year now). My plan is to get them all fixed, adopting out the newborns after they're weaned and fixed since they'll be the most social. I'd like to get the toddlers socialized enough to adopt them out but that might take awhile. I have taken toys - lots of them - to them and they love to play with them.  I've got a mouse on a stick that I'll take up with me and interact more with them on the play.  On the toddlers, there's 2 white ones with faint tan/gold/orange tabby markings on their tails and ears - they have blue eyes and their coats feel like silk! I think they're going to be fairly large cats judging by their size already. The other toddler is a smaller fat gray tabby with round eyes and a beautiful face that looks like he (she?) is smiling all the time (more like their momma). I'll see about putting up a screen door between the kitchen and living room to keep them separated so the babies can roam without being seen as a toy!  I'll keep you posted on their progress (and my insanity!)! 

LOL  we are just stalking round in circles 

EB24 said:

Lies! You just like to copy me. Don't think I haven't noticed that you have been thread stalking me lately. Or, maybe I have been thread stalking you... 

 

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