URGENT. WORRIED. PLEASE HELP. PLEASE :(

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melrai

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Just keep in mind the weekend is coming. Don't let yourself get caught in an er situation.... Whatever you have to do, do before Friday. :vibes:
The vets here are opened on the weekends. I'm feeding him his supper now...and he seems to be afraid of the new glass plate his food is on......WHY
 

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The vets here are opened on the weekends. I'm feeding him his supper now...and he seems to be afraid of the new glass plate his food is on......WHY
Because that is how cats are with new things. move it back to the old plate.

I gtg for now.... Have an early trip tomorrow - will be back tomorrow night or so.
Take care hun, :vibes:
 
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melrai

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Because that is how cats are with new things. move it back to the old plate.

I gtg for now.... Have an early trip tomorrow - will be back tomorrow night or so.
Take care hun, :vibes:
He had a couple bites of the HC. his stomach must still be upset from the 7pm puke. Ill try again in an hour or two. Is that ok?

Thank you so much for yor help :)
 

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The vets here are opened on the weekends. I'm feeding him his supper now...and he seems to be afraid of the new glass plate his food is on......WHY
I second the cerenia suggestion it really saved my cat when he had a hairball/throwing up problem. They have a shot at the vet which lasts 24 hours, but the pills are great too. Also agree with doing lots of small meals. 
 

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For hairballs, get a 6CC syringe and give 5 cc's of laxatone once a day for a week.

I am not a fan of the raw diet. Cats are not immune from bacterial infections and the way meat is processed makes it very easy for it to be contaminated with bacteria. Just because cats have a short digestive tract and handle bacteria better, does not make them immune from infection.   In the wild cats catch live prey, it is not the same as the way meat is currently processed (allowing for ample bacterial contamination).

A look at the bacteria in chicken:

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/...mpylobacter-in-processing-plant/#.Ud5M4qz7ZN8

Horsemeat usually contains bute which is a carcinogen. (You wouldn't believe the number of drugs people pump into racehorses!) I do not agree with feeding horsemeat since horses are not regulated as food animals and often have drug residues in the meat.

For some background, I have a degree in Animal Science, and animal nutrition is a passion of mine.  In other words, I have been to through every step of food processing from the dairy to the slaughterhouse (and all the other food animals in between).

As for the raw diet, I have analyzed several of the diets available over the internet including the most common sites catinfo.org and feline nutrition.org. None of those diets work out as properly balanced. Sorry but they simply are not balanced. At all!   Most of the vitamin mineral supplements sold (in order to supposedly balance your cats diet) do not work out either.   I do not like the cat food industry (and their use of byproducts), but they do all the math for you.  Most people are not able to properly balance a cat's diet.  I did make a balanced diet, and it took weeks to figure out all the math.   It still needs some tweaking but will  meet the needs with the right vitamin/mineral supplement.

If you really want to feed a healthy diet, the best you can get is a low grain/no grain, chicken based canned cat food or duck.  Turkey by itself is high in magnesium/phosphate and can cause urinary issues, so can fish.  I have not analyzed rabbit yet so I can't comment on that.

If you really want to understand feline nutrition you can download the free version of Nutrient Requirements for cats (the older version).  And you need to use this site to see how balanced your diet is:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/mynd/myrecipes/welcome?returnto=/mynd/myrecipes

To use nutrition data you have to register for free, create a recipe and input all your foods, click analyze and look at the pie chart. In order to be properly balanced every bar (for each nutrient) should be above or equal to the 3rd line (with the exception of vitamin C (cats have no requirement) and vitamin D (cats have low requirement) I think cholesterol might be on there as well (you can ignore that).

The problem with that site is you cannot input most vitamin/mineral supplements so to include added vitamins (or calculate how much bone meal to add) you must copy the results to an excel sheet, and do the rest of the math by hand. As I said, it will take several hours and a huge headache to figure out a balanced diet.

Really the best you can do is buy a commercial food that is AFFCO certified. Now that they have freeze dried raw, and no grain diets available, it is possible to feed a healthier diet even if it is still commercial.

My cat has urinary issues and is allergic to most foods which is the only reason I ended up doing all this research.  They do not have a grain free urinary diet on the market (which is what he needs). 

I'm not saying it is the food making your cat sick... but it is worth considering.  And I would definitely not recommend feeding a home made diet for anything more than short term use. 
 
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melrai

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For hairballs, get a 6CC syringe and give 5 cc's of laxatone once a day for a week.

I am not a fan of the raw diet. Cats are not immune from bacterial infections and the way meat is processed makes it very easy for it to be contaminated with bacteria. Just because cats have a short digestive tract and handle bacteria better, does not make them immune from infection.   In the wild cats catch live prey, it is not the same as the way meat is currently processed (allowing for ample bacterial contamination).

A look at the bacteria in chicken:

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/...mpylobacter-in-processing-plant/#.Ud5M4qz7ZN8

Horsemeat usually contains bute which is a carcinogen. (You wouldn't believe the number of drugs people pump into racehorses!) I do not agree with feeding horsemeat since horses are not regulated as food animals and often have drug residues in the meat.

For some background, I have a degree in Animal Science, and animal nutrition is a passion of mine.  In other words, I have been to through every step of food processing from the dairy to the slaughterhouse (and all the other food animals in between).

As for the raw diet, I have analyzed several of the diets available over the internet including the most common sites catinfo.org and feline nutrition.org. None of those diets work out as properly balanced. Sorry but they simply are not balanced. At all!   Most of the vitamin mineral supplements sold (in order to supposedly balance your cats diet) do not work out either.   I do not like the cat food industry (and their use of byproducts), but they do all the math for you.  Most people are not able to properly balance a cat's diet.  I did make a balanced diet, and it took weeks to figure out all the math.   It still needs some tweaking but will  meet the needs with the right vitamin/mineral supplement.

If you really want to feed a healthy diet, the best you can get is a low grain/no grain, chicken based canned cat food or duck.  Turkey by itself is high in magnesium/phosphate and can cause urinary issues, so can fish.  I have not analyzed rabbit yet so I can't comment on that.

If you really want to understand feline nutrition you can download the free version of Nutrient Requirements for cats (the older version).  And you need to use this site to see how balanced your diet is:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/mynd/myrecipes/welcome?returnto=/mynd/myrecipes

To use nutrition data you have to register for free, create a recipe and input all your foods, click analyze and look at the pie chart. In order to be properly balanced every bar (for each nutrient) should be above or equal to the 3rd line (with the exception of vitamin C (cats have no requirement) and vitamin D (cats have low requirement) I think cholesterol might be on there as well (you can ignore that).

The problem with that site is you cannot input most vitamin/mineral supplements so to include added vitamins (or calculate how much bone meal to add) you must copy the results to an excel sheet, and do the rest of the math by hand. As I said, it will take several hours and a huge headache to figure out a balanced diet.

Really the best you can do is buy a commercial food that is AFFCO certified. Now that they have freeze dried raw, and no grain diets available, it is possible to feed a healthier diet even if it is still commercial.

My cat has urinary issues and is allergic to most foods which is the only reason I ended up doing all this research.  They do not have a grain free urinary diet on the market (which is what he needs). 

I'm not saying it is the food making your cat sick... but it is worth considering.  And I would definitely not recommend feeding a home made diet for anything more than short term use. 
EYL and Probiotics usually keep his hairballs at bay, but as I mentioned earlier, I had forgotten to get some and the lack of it in his food has probably got him into this mess. 

I do not get commercial made raw. Nor do I give my cats a home-made diet. I buy my raw from a small, independant company in the city, one that I've worked for in the past. Their raw comes from small, independant farmers. Their rabbit, beef and venison are all raised on a grass-fed, natural and organic diet. Their chicken, is free-range, although...it is grain-fed. Steroid, hormone and antiobiotic free. Except for the horses. The living conditions for horses here is terrible - I agree with you on that point. I feel VERY comfortable with where I am getting my meat. They follow the 80/10/10 ratio. 

In result of the two last points, I have made a concious effor to feed Hooligan less chicken (unless I can find organic) and less horse. The problem I have run into right now is that, because of his upset stomach and because the only thing he's kept down since he's puked is the HC mix, I am too afraid to feed him any different...at least for the meantime. 

The chicken, because fed long-term (I f'd up) must've irritated his GI tract and is causing the problems - when it is the sole protein. He had the same incident with rabbit. I have made a concious effort to begun feeding him 3+ proteins at a time - when he feels better. 

Before raw, he was on a canned diet - duck, chicken, beef, whatever - I rotated it and he loved it. Then it gave him a SEVERE bout of diarrhea (if you read some of my older posts in the forum, you will see that). Raw, although he's had a hairball or two - and some "eyebrow" thinning, has led me to see the best results/I'm confident in his current diet.

I don't agree with most of what AFFCO lets slide - therefore I will never feel confident that I giving my cats the best food. 

On the topic of freeze dried raw...where I get my meat, the owner gets it frozen (it is frozen immediately). She then proceses it in her own facility that is MAPAQ certified (as QC govermental standars regulate - and boy, are they ever tough!). Therefore getting something that was freeze-dried and processed by a huge company makes me uncomfortable. I'd rather stick to organic, local and hey, she feeds the same raw to her very own dog - If that isn't trust - I don't know what is!
 
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melrai

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 MORNING UPDATE: 

So, Hooligan made it through the night without any pukes. He slept near my head and seemed relaxed - despite my anxiety over the situation. I had fed him his supper at 9, he didn't eat more than a few, little bites. I tried again at 11, and he ate most of it. No treats, no nothing. This morning, he seemed perky. I bought some wheatgrass yesterday, that I made available to him (and Ruby, who LOVES wheatgrass - wow!) this morning.He must've had only a FEW bites - he was more interested in the container it was in. 

He then went back to play - I was throwing him a hair elastic (his favorite toy) and he was chasing it. Then, all of a sudden, he puked what seemed like white, foamy spit. He just stopped playing and puked it up and rain back into my room. I, of course, was upset. I cleaned it up - returned to my room, and saw him playing and acting fine. I assume it was hunger pukes, especially since his vomit episode(s) yesterday. Am I right to believe that? 


This morning, after I left for work, my mom fed him is regular portion. He left about a tsp of it. When I last heard, there were no pukes and he seemed very eager (you can tell him his "prups" and screams for food, LOL) to eat. 

I will be leaving work at 1pm to head home and care for him. 

More updates soon.

Thank you everyone. 
 

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I'm so glad he's doing so much better!

As to the frothy puke - it's not clear how long after he'd eaten that was, or the timing in relation to the grass, but the clear liquid is usually just bile. :nod:

Sounds like he's getting over the hairball crisis! :cross: :vibes: :vibes: :vibes:
 

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When you mention egg yolk, do you mean egg yolk lecithin or, actually egg yolk? In that case, how much would her need per meal? I assume 1 tbs or less?
Sorry, I've been having internet issues, so posting is hit or miss. :rolleyes:

I mean actual egg yolk. :nod: The egg yolk lecithin helps by emulsifying the fat that binds the hairballs; but including a whole egg yolk or two a week provides further prevention, because of the acetylcholine (a component of the choline in egg yolks: eggs are rich in choline). This blog is in reference to ferrets, but the principles are the same: http://www.ferretharmony.net/2013/04/27/hairballs-eat-an-egg/

The two can be used together, but the addition of the egg yolks should provide the added benefit of improved motility. :nod:
 
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melrai

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I'm so glad he's doing so much better!

As to the frothy puke - it's not clear how long after he'd eaten that was, or the timing in relation to the grass, but the clear liquid is usually just bile.


Sounds like he's getting over the hairball crisis!
Fingers crossed definitely. 

Anything that comes out of his mouth now, in terms of puke, will worry me right now. 

He hadn't eaten since 11pm - he ate the grass (VERY little) at 7:45-8am this morning. Then puked about 5 minutes agter. 

Let's hope everything is okay 
 
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melrai

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Sorry, I've been having internet issues, so posting is hit or miss.


I mean actual egg yolk.
The egg yolk lecithin helps by emulsifying the fat that binds the hairballs; but including a whole egg yolk or two a week provides further prevention, because of the acetylcholine (a component of the choline in egg yolks: eggs are rich in choline). This blog is in reference to ferrets, but the principles are the same: http://www.ferretharmony.net/2013/04/27/hairballs-eat-an-egg/

The two can be used together, but the addition of the egg yolks should provide the added benefit of improved motility.
No worries on the lack of posts. This is great advice! 


I'm a little anxious to introduce egg yolk to him now, what with his recent tummy troubles, but maybe I can do it 1x a week (in addition to the EYL) once all this is cleared up? 


Thank you 
 

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For hairballs, get a 6CC syringe and give 5 cc's of laxatone once a day for a week.
This is a very dangerous recommendation for novices at syringe feeding. If someone has experience, or the cat is very compliant, that's one thing. But for the benefit of others reading the thread, hairball remedies should never be forced into a struggling cat's mouth, especially via syringe. :nono: If they are aspirated, they can cause lipoid pneumonia. (http://www.merckmanuals.com/profess...nia/aspiration_pneumonitis_and_pneumonia.html). This is difficult to impossible to treat.

Further, 5cc's is far too much, even when there's a hairball crisis. The directions for laxatone are to "place a small amount on the cat's nose." In a crisis, more would be needed. An appropriate amount is 1/2 to 1 teaspoon. 1 tsp is 2.5cc. Obviously a lower dose should be used in kittens.
 

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No worries on the lack of posts. This is great advice! 



I'm a little anxious to introduce egg yolk to him now, what with his recent tummy troubles, but maybe I can do it 1x a week (in addition to the EYL) once all this is cleared up? 



Thank you 
Sorry, but YES! Definitely WAIT until his tummy troubles are cleared up. :nod: (Thank goodness for your good sense. :lol3: ).

And because his IBD is in the form of diarrhea, this is definitely something to be introduced slowly. When Carolina fed Bugsy a whole egg yolk, he got diarrhea. :nod: So I'd start with like 1/4 egg yolk every 2-3 days, and see how it goes.
 

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What worries me is that you mention he likes to play with hair ties. If he has eaten a bunch it may have caused some sort of partial blockage and he is having problems passing them. If he is eating them they also may be causing stomach irritation.

I was also just wondering if the food you are feeding had added taurine? The grinding process makes meat have less taurine so you should add some. I know some of the ground raw diets in canada do not seem to add it so i thought I would mention it. You can get the powder at the health food store.
 
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melrai

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What worries me is that you mention he likes to play with hair ties. If he has eaten a bunch it may have caused some sort of partial blockage and he is having problems passing them. If he is eating them they also may be causing stomach irritation.

I was also just wondering if the food you are feeding had added taurine? The grinding process makes meat have less taurine so you should add some. I know some of the ground raw diets in canada do not seem to add it so i thought I would mention it. You can get the powder at the health food store.
He absolutely loves to play with hair ties. But, believe me, he does not eat them. All the ones I've found around the house (that have sneaked their way under desks, are completely intact - none look like they've been bitten or broken. He just carries them around in his mouth, drops them, throws them, then runs after them. I've never found any in his litterbox either.

Also, he hasn't had a hair-tie to play with in months. I gave him one today cause I thought it'd make him happy 


They do not add taurine. I didn't know the grinding process makes meat have less taurine! Wow 
. Thanks for the mention. 

What brand do you use? Is too much taurine a bad thing? 

Again, this will all be done once his tummy settles. 
 
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melrai

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Sorry, but YES! Definitely WAIT until his tummy troubles are cleared up.
(Thank goodness for your good sense.
).

And because his IBD is in the form of diarrhea, this is definitely something to be introduced slowly. When Carolina fed Bugsy a whole egg yolk, he got diarrhea.
So I'd start with like 1/4 egg yolk every 2-3 days, and see how it goes.
Okay, I'll do so. Yesterday, I added a tiny bit of water to a capsule of EYL, so I could be sure he took some (just in case it got lost when he puked his food up earlier that day). He seemed to like it .. A LOT. Maybe this will be a way to help entice him to eat more and different proteins? As I'm trying to get him on a grass-fed diet and all...


Thank you for the tip 
 

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Good point about the taurine, Franksmom. :nod:

Taurine is a rather complicated nutrient. The amount of taurine available to a cat from the diet depends on a bunch of things, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, what other ingredients are present (like bacteria) in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed. This is a raw diet, and high quality protein (meaning animal-based protein, not plant-based, which is what the studies in cats compare), with high bioavailability. :nod: The UC Davis ground raw rabbit study resulted in a taurine deficiency in several of the cats; one of the theories was that bacteria in the food OR existing bacteria in the intestines of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Their conclusion was that neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline, and they noted that vitamin E levels in their raw rabbit diet were low, which can cause meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground. :nod: And vitamin E is one of the ingredients Dr. Pierson recommends be added to the diet; so if vitamin E isn't added when the mixture is ground, it's a good idea to add the taurine. :nod:

So even though the amount of taurine needed can vary depending on a lot of things, FNES walks through taurine supplementation: http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-how-much-taurine-should-i-add

Taurine is water soluble, so it isn't a vitamin that builds up in their systems like A or D. Supplementing with 200mg - 250mg would be more than sufficient. I used to buy the NOW 1,000mg capsules and sprinkle on 1/4 cap. I think Carolina buys loose taurine powder and uses 1/4 teaspoon.
 
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Okay, I'll do so. Yesterday, I added a tiny bit of water to a capsule of EYL, so I could be sure he took some (just in case it got lost when he puked his food up earlier that day). He seemed to like it .. A LOT. Maybe this will be a way to help entice him to eat more and different proteins? As I'm trying to get him on a grass-fed diet and all...



Thank you for the tip 
:nod: Most cats LOVE egg yolks, so if he likes them and does well with them, it might be a good way to introduce new proteins!
 
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melrai

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Good point about the taurine, Franksmom.


Taurine is a rather complicated nutrient. The amount of taurine available to a cat from the diet depends on a bunch of things, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, what other ingredients are present (like bacteria) in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed. This is a raw diet, and high quality protein (meaning animal-based protein, not plant-based, which is what the studies in cats compare), with high bioavailability.
The UC Davis ground raw rabbit study resulted in a taurine deficiency in several of the cats; one of the theories was that bacteria in the food OR existing bacteria in the intestines of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Their conclusion was that neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline, and they noted that vitamin E levels in their raw rabbit diet were low, which can cause meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground.
And vitamin E is one of the ingredients Dr. Pierson recommends be added to the diet; so if vitamin E isn't added when the mixture is ground, it's a good idea to add the taurine.


So even though the amount of taurine needed can vary depending on a lot of things, FNES walks through taurine supplementation: http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-how-much-taurine-should-i-add

Taurine is water soluble, so it isn't a vitamin that builds up in their systems like A or D. Supplementing with 200mg - 250mg would be more than sufficient. I used to buy the NOW 1,000mg capsules and sprinkle on 1/4 cap. I think Carolina buys loose taurine powder and uses 1/4 teaspoon.
The Taurine issue scares me a little, just due to its complexity - I don't really understand how to use it/how I should use it with my cats.

I definitely know that absolutely NOTHING is added to the meat once it is ground. 

It is universal for every cat's weight and age? Would Hooligan and Ruby benefit with 200mg of Taurine, to start?

If I add Taurine, would not adding Vitamin E be okay?

I'm sorry for all the questions, when supplements come into play I just want to be 100% sure I am doing the right thing.
 
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melrai

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Great news! 

Ps. Thanks for the Taurine link on the previous comment. 
 
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